hope_for_things Posted March 13, 2018 Posted March 13, 2018 16 minutes ago, pogi said: If someone neglected to take "proper precautions" by drinking at a party, and was raped at the party, do you really feel that she has some fault? Is your daughter going to feel safe to talk to you about being victimized at a party if that is the case? Think of the shame that places on the victim to think that they are somehow responsible for at least a part of being sexually assaulted against her will. Some good info here: http://stoprelationshipabuse.org/educated/avoiding-victim-blaming/ Great point. One example I like to bring up with people when they make arguments that victim blame, is whether they would blame someone that got in a car accident while driving. Everyone knows that driving has a certain element of risk involved, but does that mean the person who got in an accident is to blame because they knowingly took a certain percentage of risk every time they got behind the driver's wheel. Am I to blame if I go on vacation to a foreign city and I get mugged? Surely I knew there was some level of risk, but am I to blame?
Jeanne Posted March 13, 2018 Posted March 13, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Why do you think this is a wise choice by Pence. I would argue that its a position that he takes based on fear of perceptions and fear of potential moral failing. How is this wise? I would trust my husband...this is a choice for me. But I think this is political motive too...that protects his wife. She does't need to be guilty of anything but if he were to dine with someone else other than his wife...they can absolutely ruin her and her marriage. It is his choice...and I respect that. I think his Christianity is being used to hurt..rather than to portray equality. This may be wise for him...but for you and I...regular folk...we know who we are..and we don't have to prove anything..This is why I don't run for town council... We don't see it...but the athiests/christians in this world...deserve to be treated the same way. Edited March 13, 2018 by Jeanne 1
hope_for_things Posted March 13, 2018 Posted March 13, 2018 7 minutes ago, Jeanne said: But I think this is political motive too...that protects his wife. She does't need to be guilty of anything but if he were to dine with someone else other than his wife...they can absolutely ruin her and her marriage. It is his choice...and I respect that. I don't see why this would necessarily ruin his wife's standing or marriage. Is Christian culture that sensitive to an innocent dinner with a colleague that they could ruin someone over it? Look at all the crazy stuff Trump has done and gotten away with, and a dinner out with a woman would ruin things for Pence or his wife? I don't buy it. Also, I don't respect the choice, because if he's doing it out of cultural pressure to present a particular social norm that has a detrimental impact on society and on women, then I don't think its rationally defensible. I've become somewhat of a feminist in recent years as I've awakened to all the problems in our entrenched patriarchal society. Are you not concerned about women having access and equal treatment? Do you not see any problems with this idea that grown men and women can't be trusted together in public places? Sorry, I'm asking hard questions, but I typically agree with your posts and appreciate your participation on the board very much. 1
Jeanne Posted March 13, 2018 Posted March 13, 2018 1 minute ago, hope_for_things said: I don't see why this would necessarily ruin his wife's standing or marriage. Is Christian culture that sensitive to an innocent dinner with a colleague that they could ruin someone over it? Look at all the crazy stuff Trump has done and gotten away with, and a dinner out with a woman would ruin things for Pence or his wife? I don't buy it. Also, I don't respect the choice, because if he's doing it out of cultural pressure to present a particular social norm that has a detrimental impact on society and on women, then I don't think its rationally defensible. I've become somewhat of a feminist in recent years as I've awakened to all the problems in our entrenched patriarchal society. Are you not concerned about women having access and equal treatment? Do you not see any problems with this idea that grown men and women can't be trusted together in public places? Sorry, I'm asking hard questions, but I typically agree with your posts and appreciate your participation on the board very much. I so agree with what you are saying..most of the words in my previous post would come from media...I am only talking Mike Pence..not the rest of us. The media would have a field day with this if they wanted to slam Trump. His wife would be..like Melania...calateral damage.
strappinglad Posted March 13, 2018 Posted March 13, 2018 No one has the right to steal my car, even if I left it open and running in a busy parking lot. If my car does get stolen in those circumstances, what are the chances that someone, even the police, will blame the victim to some extent. Insurance companies look askance at such carelessness. If I were to post the theft on the internet, I guarantee I would be called an ' idiot ' within minutes. You do what you can to avoid problems, and then you will not only be less of an idiot, you will feel like less of one also. If there is a silver lining to the metoo stuff, it may be that women, if asked to a place/dinner alone with a boss will immediately see many red flags because most men will now be loath to do so for fear of possible accusations 10 years down the road. In other words they will be " locking the car " .
california boy Posted March 13, 2018 Posted March 13, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, snowflake said: This rule is perfectly fine both ways, I would feel very uncomfortable with my spouse eating alone, travelling alone, checking into a hotel and go to business meetings alone with someone of the opposite sex. These situations are a recipe for marital problems in my opinion. There are simple ways around the Pence policy, don't eat alone! Personally I really can't see how anyone could possibly have this position. Should you ride in an elevator when another woman is there without your wife present? Are you suppose to call your wife to come to your business meeting if it is with a female associate? Can you go to the doctors without your wife if it is a female physician? Should you be seated on an airplane next to a woman without your wife being there? How about if Mike Pence needs to meet with the leader of Germany. Should his wife be called into the meeting? And let's flip this around for just a minute. Is the Vice President of the United States suppose to leave the White House every time his wife has a business meeting with an associate? How are any of these situations and different than having a business lunch with an associate of the opposite sex? In every situation you "could" immediately fall in lust, rush off to a hotel room and have wild sex. Is the trust and relationship between a husband and wife so fragile that a lunch with someone of the opposite sex has any more of a chance to some marital breakdown than any other situation? Are these wives suppose to be at the beck and call of their husbands every time they encounter someone of the opposite sex throughout their day? Or is it ONLY lunch that throws the marital vows in jeopardy? Edited March 13, 2018 by california boy 3
snowflake Posted March 13, 2018 Posted March 13, 2018 10 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I don't see why this would necessarily ruin his wife's standing or marriage. Is Christian culture that sensitive to an innocent dinner with a colleague that they could ruin someone over it? Look at all the crazy stuff Trump has done and gotten away with, and a dinner out with a woman would ruin things for Pence or his wife? I don't buy it. Also, I don't respect the choice, because if he's doing it out of cultural pressure to present a particular social norm that has a detrimental impact on society and on women, then I don't think its rationally defensible. I've become somewhat of a feminist in recent years as I've awakened to all the problems in our entrenched patriarchal society. Are you not concerned about women having access and equal treatment? Do you not see any problems with this idea that grown men and women can't be trusted together in public places? Sorry, I'm asking hard questions, but I typically agree with your posts and appreciate your participation on the board very much. You clearly haven't been paying attention to the #metoo movement. We have seen many men (and several women) accused of inappropriate behavior with no evidence to back up the claim, just her word against his. Now I'm not saying these aren't all illegitimate but you have to understand that a man in Pence's position wisely removes himself from a situation that could lead to a sexual harassment claim (or worse), legitimate or not. Politics is a nasty business and Mr.Pence's political opponents would love to "Roy Moore" him. Fair or not it is wise, you could always invite his wife if you really had to have dinner with him too. 1
strappinglad Posted March 13, 2018 Posted March 13, 2018 18 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I've become somewhat of a feminist in recent years as I've awakened to all the problems in our entrenched patriarchal society. Are you not concerned about women having access and equal treatment? Do you not see any problems with this idea that grown men and women can't be trusted together in public places? No they can't. Have you not been paying attention the last couple of years? And in case you have been under a rock, the USA and some western nations are now the ' least ' patriarchal societies in the history of societies. Take a walk on the wild side and go to India, or the Middle East, or China , or Africa , or south of the border for that matter. 1
california boy Posted March 13, 2018 Posted March 13, 2018 15 minutes ago, snowflake said: You clearly haven't been paying attention to the #metoo movement. We have seen many men (and several women) accused of inappropriate behavior with no evidence to back up the claim, just her word against his. Now I'm not saying these aren't all illegitimate but you have to understand that a man in Pence's position wisely removes himself from a situation that could lead to a sexual harassment claim (or worse), legitimate or not. Politics is a nasty business and Mr.Pence's political opponents would love to "Roy Moore" him. Fair or not it is wise, you could always invite his wife if you really had to have dinner with him too. Can you name one single public figure who has been accused of sexual harassment that has simply had lunch with someone of the opposite sex? 2
pogi Posted March 13, 2018 Posted March 13, 2018 10 minutes ago, strappinglad said: Take a walk on the wild side and go to India, or the Middle East, or China , or Africa , or south of the border for that matter. To this point, I just want to do one small fact-check. India, China, and South East Asia are actually home to some of the most, and only matriarchal societies in the world. The Mosuo in China, the Khasi and the Garo in India for example. http://www.dw.com/en/asias-matrilineal-societies-where-women-rule/g-37854025
snowflake Posted March 13, 2018 Posted March 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, california boy said: Can you name one single public figure who has been accused of sexual harassment that has simply had lunch with someone of the opposite sex? Nope, none over lunch, but i can give you a ton where it is basically his word against hers.
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