Is There Really More Than One Way to Mormon?

[FearlessFixxer]

Hey all,  ExMormon here.

Did any of you attend Sunstone this year?  The theme was 'More Than One Way To Mormon'.

I did not know what to expect as it was my first time attending.  I was blown away at how much love and respect there was there.

Now, I realize that maybe the active Mormons there were probably not representative of most Mormons....they are much more  liberal and open minded, but I had active members come up and challenge me after my two talks, so it was not all about being exmormon or antagonistic towards the church.

The reason the event worked was because there was a pure empathy towards each person.  No matter what someones status was in the church, everyone was validated and respected.

I often wonder if there needs to be an exmormon community and a mormon community...and a whole spectrum of communities in between.

Can't we all just be Mormons?  I know I want that.

It requires us all to validate each other's opinions. 

We don't have to agree.  We don't have to say the other person is right....

But we have to accept that a person is justified, for example, in being outraged by Smith having sex with a ton of women behind his wife's back.  Conversely, people are free to believe he was doing god's bidding in bringing about the eternal principle of polygamy....the point being that neither position makes the individual a bad or evil person.

While acknowledging that many exmormon have not made it easy to reach this level of understanding, it is important to acknowledge that mormons have been returning the favor.

Can we ever get there?  Can we ever get the point where active mormons stop calling those that leave the church sinners or anti-mormons or apostates?  Is it possible for a person like myself to criticize the principal and/or characteristics of mormonism without being accused of personally attacking individual mormons?

I hope we can and, despite what people might think of me based of what they have read online, I always trying to achieve this dual respect in my real life relationships with active mormons (with varying degrees of success).

[drums12]

Probably not when you come out with the passive-aggressive, pretend I'm friendly but get in a sucker punch like "being outraged by Smith having sex with a ton of women behind his wife's back" OP

[The Nehor]

Yes, I think we need more of that kind of understanding.

*Pushes secret panic button*

(whispering) We have got a Heretic here. Send Danite backup immediately.

[ALarson]

2 minutes ago, drums12 said:

Probably not when you come out with the passive-aggressive, pretend I'm friendly but get in a sucker punch like "being outraged by Smith having sex with a ton of women behind his wife's back" OP

Well, actually a lot of active Mormons believe this as well (Ok...probably not a "ton").  Many do not agree with how Joseph practiced polygamy and how much deceit was involved (regarding what was done behind Emma's back).  So I get his point here.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, drums12 said:

Probably not when you come out with the passive-aggressive, pretend I'm friendly but get in a sucker punch like "being outraged by Smith having sex with a ton of women behind his wife's back" OP

This is the kind of thing "godless heathens bent on dragging others to hell with them" like to say.

[JLHPROF]

26 minutes ago, FearlessFixxer said:

But we have to accept that a person is justified, for example, in being outraged by Smith having sex with a ton of women behind his wife's back.  

They were all his wives.  Emma wasn't any more his wife than Eliza R. Snow.  She was just the first, and from a priesthood perspective, she wasn't even his first wife.
Joseph Smith had sex with his wives, and probably not all of them.  I have a hard time being outraged by a husband and wife having sex within marriage.

Quote

 Can we ever get the point where active mormons stop calling those that leave the church sinners or anti-mormons or apostates?

No.  I hope not.  The description is accurate.
 

Edited September 26, 2017 by JLHPROF

[ALarson]

40 minutes ago, FearlessFixxer said:

Hey all,  ExMormon here.

Did any of you attend Sunstone this year?  The theme was 'More Than One Way To Mormon'.

I did not know what to expect as it was my first time attending.  I was blown away at how much love and respect there was there.

Now, I realize that maybe the active Mormons there were probably not representative of most Mormons....they are much more  liberal and open minded, but I had active members come up and challenge me after my two talks, so it was not all about being exmormon or antagonistic towards the church.

The reason the event worked was because there was a pure empathy towards each person.  No matter what someones status was in the church, everyone was validated and respected.

I often wonder if there needs to be an exmormon community and a mormon community...and a whole spectrum of communities in between.

Can't we all just be Mormons?  I know I want that.

It requires us all to validate each other's opinions. 

We don't have to agree.  We don't have to say the other person is right....

But we have to accept that a person is justified, for example, in being outraged by Smith having sex with a ton of women behind his wife's back.  Conversely, people are free to believe he was doing god's bidding in bringing about the eternal principle of polygamy....the point being that neither position makes the individual a bad or evil person.

While acknowledging that many exmormon have not made it easy to reach this level of understanding, it is important to acknowledge that mormons have been returning the favor.

Can we ever get there?  Can we ever get the point where active mormons stop calling those that leave the church sinners or anti-mormons or apostates?  Is it possible for a person like myself to criticize the principal and/or characteristics of mormonism without being accused of personally attacking individual mormons?

I hope we can and, despite what people might think of me based of what they have read online, I always trying to achieve this dual respect in my real life relationships with active mormons (with varying degrees of success).

I know of several inactive or ex-Mormons who still call themselves "a Mormon".  One has expressed to me that he will always be Mormon, that he feels it's so much a part of who he is (like it's in his DNA...quoting him).  He compared it to someone being a Jew and even if not a practicing Jew, they're still a Jew.  That's how he feels about being Mormon.  I found that to be interesting.

I personally believe there's room for everyone as long as people are respectful of each other's beliefs.  There's a wide range of beliefs within the very active members and that seems to be ever expanding too.  There are many more who are active and are much more progressive in their thinking and beliefs.

Edited September 26, 2017 by ALarson

[thesometimesaint]

There all types of LDS that are active, faithful, and believing the Truth Claims of the Church. Sorry you couldn't find it within your heart to see that.

[drums12]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Well, actually a lot of active Mormons believe this as well (Ok...probably not a "ton").  Many do not agree with how Joseph practiced polygamy and how much deceit was involved (regarding what was done behind Emma's back).  So I get his point here.

I have struggled mightily with plural marriage, and the way it was introduced/practiced.  I have in no way made peace with it, and I have literally cried to God trying to understand it, and I have been within a hair's width of leaving the Church in part because of it.  That said, I don't think that, even should I leave the Church, I would ever make it a point to mock, insult, and seek to destroy the faith of others.

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No.  I hope not.  The description is accurate.

But then, we are all "sinners".  So that one is an accurate description of all people, active members, nonmembers, and ex-members of the church.

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, drums12 said:

I have struggled mightily with plural marriage, and the way it was introduced/practiced.  I have in no way made peace with it, and I have literally cried to God trying to understand it, and I have been within a hair's width of leaving the Church in part because of it.  That said, I don't think that, even should I leave the Church, I would ever make it a point to mock, insult, and seek to destroy the faith of others.

That's good (and neither would I).  I can understand what you've been through too, as I also struggle with the details regarding Joseph's polygamy.  

[FearlessFixxer]

17 minutes ago, drums12 said:

Probably not when you come out with the passive-aggressive, pretend I'm friendly but get in a sucker punch like "being outraged by Smith having sex with a ton of women behind his wife's back" OP

that was not passive aggressive.  I was simply illustrating one of the more divisive issues that cause great contention among the two communities.  If you think I am pretending to be friendly then my suggestion is to ignore my posts.

[FearlessFixxer]

14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No.  I hope not.  The description is accurate.
 

With all due respect, I hope you are in the minority.

[FearlessFixxer]

13 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

There all types of LDS that are active, faithful, and believing the Truth Claims of the Church. Sorry you couldn't find it within your heart to see that.

I am confused.  Is that comment directed at me?  I don't think i ever said there weren't active, faithful, and believing mormons.  I am surprised that is what you got out of what I wrote.

[ALarson]

17 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

There all types of LDS that are active, faithful, and believing the Truth Claims of the Church. Sorry you couldn't find it within your heart to see that.

Where did he state that?

Maybe we should discuss the actual questions asked and try not to just attack the person who posted it.  As far as I know, he can post here and expect others to follow the board rules in responding, just like any other member of this board..  There are ways to disagree without getting personal.  

(And, I'm saying that even though I have not always agreed with what FearlessFixxer does with the MormonLeaks.)

Edited September 26, 2017 by ALarson

[FearlessFixxer]

12 minutes ago, drums12 said:

I have struggled mightily with plural marriage, and the way it was introduced/practiced.  I have in no way made peace with it, and I have literally cried to God trying to understand it, and I have been within a hair's width of leaving the Church in part because of it.  That said, I don't think that, even should I leave the Church, I would ever make it a point to mock, insult, and seek to destroy the faith of others.

Bad ideas and actions deserve to be mocked and insulted.  We do this with everything in life, why would religion be exempt.  For me, the key would be to not make it personal and just as much about the facts as possible and then we respect the different conclusions people come to.

In the example of Smith's relationships behind Emma's back, it is a fact that it happened....but I might say it is disgraceful and another person might say he was fulfilling commandment from god.  Why can't two people hold those views without hurling direct insults at each other?

[FearlessFixxer]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

Where did he state that?

Maybe we should discuss the actual questions asked and try not to just attack the person who posted it.  As far as I know, he can post here and expect others to follow the board rules in responding.  There are ways to disagree without getting personal.  

(And, I'm saying that even though I have not always agreed with what FearlessFixxer does with the MormonLeaks.)

thank you

[JLHPROF]

19 minutes ago, ALarson said:

But then, we are all "sinners".  So that one is an accurate description of all people, active members, nonmembers, and ex-members of the church.

Of course we are all sinners.  We are speaking of a specific action being sinful or not. 

9 minutes ago, FearlessFixxer said:

With all due respect, I hope you are in the minority.

Quote said "calling those that leave the church sinners or anti-mormons or apostates".

Those who leave the Church are accurately called apostates.  That's the definition of apostate.  You can be an apostate Catholic, an apostate Methodist or an apostate Mormon.
If they express dislike, distaste, or even hatred for the Church then they are anti-Mormons too.  They are expressing feelings or thoughts that the Mormon religion/church is false or wrong.
Which brings us to sin?  We are all sinners but are they committing a specific sin by leaving?
They are if they reject or fight against God's truth.  If Mormonism is true, or if you believe it to be true, then those who apostatize or fight against the Church ARE sinners.
At least according to your beliefs.

Show me the inaccuracy?

Edited September 26, 2017 by JLHPROF

[thesometimesaint]

Claiming that " But we have to accept that a person is justified, for example, in being outraged by Smith having sex with a ton of women behind his wife's back" is the best way to have LDS agree with you is a fools mission. . 

[FearlessFixxer]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

Quote said "calling those that leave the church sinners or anti-mormons or apostates".

Those who leave the Church are accurately called apostates.  That's the definition of apostate.  You can be an apostate Catholic, an apostate Methodist or an apostate Mormon.
If they express dislike, distaste, or even hatred for the Church then they are anti-Mormons too.  They are expressing feelings or thoughts that the Mormon religion/church is false or wrong.
Which brings us to sin?  Are they all sinners?
They are if they reject or fight against God's truth.  If Mormonism is true, or if you believe it to be true, then those who apostatize or fight against the Church ARE sinners.
At least according to your beliefs.

Show me the inaccuracy?

how about  we start with the fact that what Brighamite Branch of Mormonism calls sin my not be the same as other branches of the LDS faith or former members so maybe one should keep there opinions of who in danger of god's wrath to themselves....

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, FearlessFixxer said:

Bad ideas and actions deserve to be mocked and insulted.  

I suggest that you read the board rules as you'll get banned for:

"Mocking the beliefs of others"

Here'a link:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66537-board-guidelines-update-please-review-before-posting/

It's a good idea to read all of them before you post much more (IMO).

[drums12]

15 minutes ago, FearlessFixxer said:

Bad ideas and actions deserve to be mocked and insulted.  We do this with everything in life, why would religion be exempt.  For me, the key would be to not make it personal and just as much about the facts as possible and then we respect the different conclusions people come to.

In the example of Smith's relationships behind Emma's back, it is a fact that it happened....but I might say it is disgraceful and another person might say he was fulfilling commandment from god.  Why can't two people hold those views without hurling direct insults at each other?

They can, but IMO that's not what you were doing in your OP

[The Nehor]

24 minutes ago, FearlessFixxer said:

Bad ideas and actions deserve to be mocked and insulted.  We do this with everything in life, why would religion be exempt.  For me, the key would be to not make it personal and just as much about the facts as possible and then we respect the different conclusions people come to.

In the example of Smith's relationships behind Emma's back, it is a fact that it happened....but I might say it is disgraceful and another person might say he was fulfilling commandment from god.  Why can't two people hold those views without hurling direct insults at each other?

So you want respect and understanding unless someone does or says something bad in which case they should be mocked mercilessly? And you wonder why people cannot hold opposing views from yours and show the same respect you do?

Don't get me wrong. I am a great mocker here but even I do not have the cheek to suggest that I am insulting from a position of respect. Kudos to you sir!

Edited September 26, 2017 by The Nehor

[FearlessFixxer]

14 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I suggest that you read the board rules as you'll get banned for:

"Mocking the beliefs of others"

Here'a link:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66537-board-guidelines-update-please-review-before-posting/

It's a good idea to read all of them before you post much more (IMO).

 

7 minutes ago, drums12 said:

They can, but IMO that's not what you were doing in your OP

 

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So you want respect and understanding unless someone does or says something bad in which case they should be mocked mercilessly? And you wonder why people cannot hold opposing views from yours and show the same respect you do?

Don't get me wrong. I am a great kicker here but even I do not have the cheek to suggest that I am insulting from a position of respect. Kudos to you sir!

I fell like you guys are misunderstanding my post.  I was not trying to mock anything, the example i gave was just to help illustrate my point.

And I think Mormons can criticize bad ideas from exmos as well.

My point really was, why can't we all agree that the other side is allowed to criticize ideas without taking it as a personal insult?

[JLHPROF]

17 minutes ago, FearlessFixxer said:

how about  we start with the fact that what Brighamite Branch of Mormonism calls sin my not be the same as other branches of the LDS faith or former members so maybe one should keep there opinions of who in danger of god's wrath to themselves....

You are speaking of relative sin.
I am not arguing that what one religion calls sin is the same as another.

I am stating the very clear and obvious fact that for those who believe the "Brighamite Branch of Mormonism" to be true, they have every right to consider those who apostatize from that branch to be committing a sin.  Why wouldn't they?

To a Catholic divorce is a sin.  To a Jew eating pork is a sin.  And to a member of the LDS Church, leaving the LDS Church is a sin.
As for what God considers sin?  Well, that depends on what commandments of God actually came from God.  And all we can do in that case is follow our own beliefs.
Which for an LDS Church member should always consider apostasy from the Church as sin.