Bill “Papa” Lee Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 It is in our nature, the "nature" of the "Natural Man or Woman", to place those who oppose our ideas and ideals into small boxes with small labels. The "Spiritual Man or Woman" seeks to understand and engage others in an attempt to learn, and even entice others through dialog. Since this is the "Dialogue and Discussion" board, I am hoping we can address the current events of today, as it relates to our Faith, and our doctrine, news. Yesterday, while addressing an on line article concerning the doctrine of "Limited Atonement", I was replying to the idea, or making the case that Jesus Christ, atoned for the sins of all mankind. In my defense, I pointed out my belief that man is free to choose, and that Jesus Christ stands ready to receive all who will come unto him. A number of people who were posting, agreed (not with me, though some did) that "Limited Atonement" is not correct doctrine. During this time, someone who's name I did not know, responded by saying, "you are a Mormon, therefore you have no business discussing this topic". When I say I did not know his name, I don't even remember him from my days debating on other websites (I mean such websites devoted to attacking others), and I usually remember all. In any event, his natural response was to "label me" and "put me in a box" in an effort to silence me. Also (and to a degree it had it's desired effect) stop others from listening and answering any of my comments. I doubt that he knew me, although no one can be sure, someone else may have pointed it out to him, so that he could shut down debate. "Boxes and labels", are effective tools for the mind, it allows the mind to avoid heavy lifting and difficult debate. The use of these two methods allows most the ability to just tuck all others away in very neat compartments, so that we may clear or minds, or our consciences. None of us are above doing it, sometimes we are in a hurry, sometimes we don't care, and other times just to lazy to do otherwise. Today within the Church and outside such events are taking place that have caused the Church to speak out publicly. Labels are used for effective reasons to aid us in our daily interactions, but also (as I and many others have experienced) to separate us. So examples... White Indian Black Mexican Yankee Rebel Northerner Southerner Mormon Anti-Mormon Baptist Catholic Jew Gentile Gay Straight Police Depending on the context, any one of these labels, can be meant to help "define" or instead meant to "bind". One context meant to "include" and depending on context, the other to "exclude". The current climate concerning historical statues now has Latter-day Saints infighting, and using these very tested methods. For instance now we those who believe that these statues should remain, are somehow racists. Or those who are taught on websites or in Church that Mormons are all racists based on past policies. That all Police are racists. The reasons such labels are used is to shut down debate, so that truth can't come to light. I mention these, because they are the topics today, tomorrow other topics will rise up. So, the purpose of thread, is how do we go forward as a Faith and as a people, without give no in to the "Natural Man", over and again. How do we as a Nation move forward constructive dialogue, without name calling? Where do we go from here? Thoughts?
CV75 Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: It is in our nature, the "nature" of the "Natural Man or Woman", to place those who oppose our ideas and ideals into small boxes with small labels. The "Spiritual Man or Woman" seeks to understand and engage others in an attempt to learn, and even entice others through dialog. Since this is the "Dialogue and Discussion" board, I am hoping we can address the current events of today, as it relates to our Faith, and our doctrine, news. Yesterday, while addressing an on line article concerning the doctrine of "Limited Atonement", I was replying to the idea, or making the case that Jesus Christ, atoned for the sins of all mankind. In my defense, I pointed out my belief that man is free to choose, and that Jesus Christ stands ready to receive all who will come unto him. A number of people who were posting, agreed (not with me, though some did) that "Limited Atonement" is not correct doctrine. During this time, someone who's name I did not know, responded by saying, "you are a Mormon, therefore you have no business discussing this topic". When I say I did not know his name, I don't even remember him from my days debating on other websites (I mean such websites devoted to attacking others), and I usually remember all. In any event, his natural response was to "label me" and "put me in a box" in an effort to silence me. Also (and to a degree it had it's desired effect) stop others from listening and answering any of my comments. I doubt that he knew me, although no one can be sure, someone else may have pointed it out to him, so that he could shut down debate. "Boxes and labels", are effective tools for the mind, it allows the mind to avoid heavy lifting and difficult debate. The use of these two methods allows most the ability to just tuck all others away in very neat compartments, so that we may clear or minds, or our consciences. None of us are above doing it, sometimes we are in a hurry, sometimes we don't care, and other times just to lazy to do otherwise. Today within the Church and outside such events are taking place that have caused the Church to speak out publicly. Labels are used for effective reasons to aid us in our daily interactions, but also (as I and many others have experienced) to separate us. So examples... White Indian Black Mexican Yankee Rebel Northerner Southerner Mormon Anti-Mormon Baptist Catholic Jew Gentile Gay Straight Police Depending on the context, any one of these labels, can be meant to help "define" or instead meant to "bind". One context meant to "include" and depending on context, the other to "exclude". The current climate concerning historical statues now has Latter-day Saints infighting, and using these very tested methods. For instance now we those who believe that these statues should remain, are somehow racists. Or those who are taught on websites or in Church that Mormons are all racists based on past policies. That all Police are racists. The reasons such labels are used is to shut down debate, so that truth can't come to light. I mention these, because they are the topics today, tomorrow other topics will rise up. So, the purpose of thread, is how do we go forward as a Faith and as a people, without give no in to the "Natural Man", over and again. How do we as a Nation move forward constructive dialogue, without name calling? Where do we go from here? Thoughts? I think each individual has to decide not to do this himself, and allow his charitable influence to expand and his light to shine.
RevTestament Posted August 22, 2017 Posted August 22, 2017 3 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: It is in our nature, the "nature" of the "Natural Man or Woman", to place those who oppose our ideas and ideals into small boxes with small labels. The "Spiritual Man or Woman" seeks to understand and engage others in an attempt to learn, and even entice others through dialog. Since this is the "Dialogue and Discussion" board, I am hoping we can address the current events of today, as it relates to our Faith, and our doctrine, news. Yesterday, while addressing an on line article concerning the doctrine of "Limited Atonement", I was replying to the idea, or making the case that Jesus Christ, atoned for the sins of all mankind. In my defense, I pointed out my belief that man is free to choose, and that Jesus Christ stands ready to receive all who will come unto him. A number of people who were posting, agreed (not with me, though some did) that "Limited Atonement" is not correct doctrine. During this time, someone who's name I did not know, responded by saying, "you are a Mormon, therefore you have no business discussing this topic". When I say I did not know his name, I don't even remember him from my days debating on other websites (I mean such websites devoted to attacking others), and I usually remember all. In any event, his natural response was to "label me" and "put me in a box" in an effort to silence me. Also (and to a degree it had it's desired effect) stop others from listening and answering any of my comments. I doubt that he knew me, although no one can be sure, someone else may have pointed it out to him, so that he could shut down debate. "Boxes and labels", are effective tools for the mind, it allows the mind to avoid heavy lifting and difficult debate. The use of these two methods allows most the ability to just tuck all others away in very neat compartments, so that we may clear or minds, or our consciences. None of us are above doing it, sometimes we are in a hurry, sometimes we don't care, and other times just to lazy to do otherwise. Today within the Church and outside such events are taking place that have caused the Church to speak out publicly. Labels are used for effective reasons to aid us in our daily interactions, but also (as I and many others have experienced) to separate us. So examples... White Indian Black Mexican Yankee Rebel Northerner Southerner Mormon Anti-Mormon Baptist Catholic Jew Gentile Gay Straight Police Depending on the context, any one of these labels, can be meant to help "define" or instead meant to "bind". One context meant to "include" and depending on context, the other to "exclude". The current climate concerning historical statues now has Latter-day Saints infighting, and using these very tested methods. For instance now we those who believe that these statues should remain, are somehow racists. Or those who are taught on websites or in Church that Mormons are all racists based on past policies. That all Police are racists. The reasons such labels are used is to shut down debate, so that truth can't come to light. I mention these, because they are the topics today, tomorrow other topics will rise up. So, the purpose of thread, is how do we go forward as a Faith and as a people, without give no in to the "Natural Man", over and again. How do we as a Nation move forward constructive dialogue, without name calling? Where do we go from here? Thoughts? Nothing wrong with the label "Police" but the other usual labels such as "pigs" are definitely destructive. Gentile is not really a label. On the birth of Israel/Jacob he was called the head of goyim as was Esau, so scripturally the Jews are also goyim. Anyway, it is the nature of language to name things and that puts them in a box. I think what we need to guard against is disrespectful names which are societally destructive. We need to think of each other as brothers and sisters like the Church promotes. Man is still a long way from this. But you are right that the disrespectful name-calling needs to stop. Only then will we truly conceive of each other as brother and sister which is what we were before we came to this earth.
Guest Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 27 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Nothing wrong with the label "Police" but the other usual labels such as "pigs" are definitely destructive. Gentile is not really a label. On the birth of Israel/Jacob he was called the head of goyim as was Esau, so scripturally the Jews are also goyim. Anyway, it is the nature of language to name things and that puts them in a box. I think what we need to guard against is disrespectful names which are societally destructive. We need to think of each other as brothers and sisters like the Church promotes. Man is still a long way from this. But you are right that the disrespectful name-calling needs to stop. Only then will we truly conceive of each other as brother and sister which is what we were before we came to this earth. I know all too well what Police Officers are called, even retired ones. I chose these words, because none carry a negative meaning. Except maybe for the term "Anti-Mormon." But these words are often used in an attempt to label or libel others, it is how these words are used.
hagoth7 Posted August 23, 2017 Posted August 23, 2017 (edited) 21 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said: So, the purpose of thread, is how do we go forward as a Faith and as a people, without give no in to the "Natural Man", over and again. How do we as a Nation move forward constructive dialogue, without name calling? Where do we go from here? Thoughts? ...There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in aone, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.... https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/4-ne/1.15-18?lang=eng&clang=eng#p14 In theory, when we genuinely get to the point that we consider others fellow children of God, every label loses its divisiveness. I think it would be additionally helpful when even the divisiveness of nationality fades. (Says a guest.) Edited August 23, 2017 by hagoth7
Recommended Posts