Popular Post stemelbow Posted June 5, 2017 Popular Post Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) I felt touched yesterday. I had reported from the week before A conversation we had in EQ. I wanted to report from yesterday for any interested. My EQP stopped me in the hall and we had an extended conversation. "I feel really terrible about last week. It seems like people disrespected you and your view was dismissed without consideration" "don't worry about it. I didn't see it that way. I think the teacher just wanted to get moving on to the rest of the lesson he had prepared, and I'm not sure I expressed myself all that well anyway." "So, what did you mean when you answered the question last week?" "I was asked to read a part of Elder Holland's talk and was asked what I thought was meant." "Ok. So what did you mean?" "Nothing special...Just thought what I had read suggested that although we want to celebrate diversity within the Church there is a limit and not all voices are welcome". "But, ok...so...I've been wanting to tell you, though, that I think it's unfair how everyone in the ward has been speaking about you. My first time in our ward was when you spoke in Sacrament. I loved your talk and couldn't figure out why everyone was so upset with you." He then went on to explain how and why he loved my talk. I was frankly flattered that he even remembered it, because it was some years ago. I was flattered for that but also it really hit me hard to hear him say how everyone has been speaking ill of me. Everyone? Come on. I know a number of people have a problem with me, but the way he made it universal was hard to hear. He mentioned the talk and how the bishop was particularly upset with me. He indicated in so saying, though, that it seemed the bishop missed the whole point I had made. And it has been unfair how they've silenced or tried to silence me, as if there was some reason for it. While the bishop asked me to stop sharing my thoughts for the most part, the SP asked to stop talking about anything controversial, which made me wonder what he meant since most of what he says is controversial to me. Anyway, I've been skirting around in Church wondering if all of my thoughts are controversial and thus not welcome. I haven't gotten a handle on what I could offer that would be welcome vs what I could offer that would not be. Played with my little brain some. He said, "Hey, I like you. I think you offer great thoughts and ideas and love having you in our ward and quorum. If it were up to me I'd leave you free to share openly." This goes along with a couple of conversations I"ve been a part of lately...are "other" thoughts welcome? Should they be? Is it more important we control the ward members or that we love them? I was sincerely touched. It made me remember how wonderful Church is and can be. Edited June 5, 2017 by stemelbow 5
hagoth7 Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) 57 minutes ago, stemelbow said: This goes along with a couple of conversations I"ve been a part of lately...are "other" thoughts welcome? Should they be? Is it more important we control the ward members or that we love them? I was sincerely touched. It made me remember how wonderful Church is and can be. Smorgasbord, Just the smell of pickled cabbage makes some people ill. While some of us who have tasted the only true mealTM just gotta have it. But what do you do when too many people complain about the smell or the taste? You either exclude them (or yourself) from the table, or you simply set the good stuff on the table with a removable lid, and let those interested enjoy. 57 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I was sincerely touched. It made me remember how wonderful Church is and can be. Had an unexpected visit from two ward members last night. Brightened my day big time. Edited June 5, 2017 by hagoth7 1
hagoth7 Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) 50 minutes ago, stemelbow said: He then went on to explain how and why he loved my talk. I was frankly flattered that he even remembered it, because it was some years ago... Willing to share here or in PM more about your talk? 50 minutes ago, stemelbow said: ....Played with my little brain some. http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/13-11.htm Edited June 5, 2017 by hagoth7 1
Jeanne Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 I a loving this EQP. Follow you heart okay? Unless you are completely shut down..speak up and speak out..raise questions..that is what a class is for! 1
stemelbow Posted June 5, 2017 Author Posted June 5, 2017 2 hours ago, hagoth7 said: Willing to share here or in PM more about your talk? I'm afraid he remembered the talk better than I. I quoted Paul in https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-cor/13?lang=eng wherein we see through a glass darkly and he knows but in part. Sometimes I think we often think the leaders of the Church know more, can see more. I'm not so sure. They know what they know and understand what they understand just like the rest of us. I quoted at some point, Hugh B Brown where in he challenged those who are questioners to not be afraid to dissent, if they are informed. I quoted BY and Joseph suggesting things like, we need to learn to be our own little prophets, relying on personal revelation even beyond, at times, messages we get at Church. At times the Church has been wrong, terribly so (I think I even quoted Pres Uchtdorf here) and the Church is much better off if we each learn to contribute to the great work of God in uncovering truth and forging ways to goodness. It's not much different than the kind of stuff I've spouted off on around here. 1
Guest Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 On June 5, 2017 at 2:58 PM, stemelbow said: I'm afraid he remembered the talk better than I. I quoted Paul in https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-cor/13?lang=eng wherein we see through a glass darkly and he knows but in part. Sometimes I think we often think the leaders of the Church know more, can see more. I'm not so sure. They know what they know and understand what they understand just like the rest of us. I quoted at some point, Hugh B Brown where in he challenged those who are questioners to not be afraid to dissent, if they are informed. I quoted BY and Joseph suggesting things like, we need to learn to be our own little prophets, relying on personal revelation even beyond, at times, messages we get at Church. At times the Church has been wrong, terribly so (I think I even quoted Pres Uchtdorf here) and the Church is much better off if we each learn to contribute to the great work of God in uncovering truth and forging ways to goodness. It's not much different than the kind of stuff I've spouted off on around here. We do "see (all) through a glass darkly", we are mortal men and women who are so unacquainted with the things of eternity. As such we should all take care in "quote mining" in an effort to put forth our own spin of what is truth. In my decades of church membership, I have seen those who search out only the quotes that reflect their own beliefs or opinions, in an effort to speak (be in Sacrament) and teach or comment (be it in a class), in an effort to direct, rather than uplift. We are all guilty of such behavior, it is after all the human thing to do, or the actions of the"natural man". When we are seeking the Spirit, and seek to be led by the Spirit, then we will speak only truth, and remove our ego's from that process...this is the "Spiritual man". So in effect, we are all at times, Laman and Lemuel, and at other times we are Nephi and Sam. What I have learned over the years, it is not so much what I might say, but the way in which I say it. Little is served in trying too, in the 30 min classes (real class time, to be honest) expose the warts that we see, or seeking only to cover them up. What should happen is to teach the material that is selected, and aid the teacher in keeping on course with it. Since I do not know what was said, or not said, I am just expressing my general opinion of what we are called to do. I am currently serving as the teacher in my High Priest Group, my prayer each week is to leave as much of my ego at the door, and my prayer as I am leaving, is that I was successful in doing so. No member should be attacked for speaking the truth or opinion, but no member should use the class for their own "bully pulpit". I pray that your feelings were not hurt, which is my prayer for any of my brothers and sisters. 1
BCSpace Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 No priesthood quorum is complete without the occasional donnybrook to keep the blood flowing, the mind sharp, and the knees bent. 2
Johnnie Cake Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 On 6/5/2017 at 10:00 AM, stemelbow said: I felt touched yesterday. I had reported from the week before A conversation we had in EQ. I wanted to report from yesterday for any interested. My EQP stopped me in the hall and we had an extended conversation. "I feel really terrible about last week. It seems like people disrespected you and your view was dismissed without consideration" "don't worry about it. I didn't see it that way. I think the teacher just wanted to get moving on to the rest of the lesson he had prepared, and I'm not sure I expressed myself all that well anyway." "So, what did you mean when you answered the question last week?" "I was asked to read a part of Elder Holland's talk and was asked what I thought was meant." "Ok. So what did you mean?" "Nothing special...Just thought what I had read suggested that although we want to celebrate diversity within the Church there is a limit and not all voices are welcome". "But, ok...so...I've been wanting to tell you, though, that I think it's unfair how everyone in the ward has been speaking about you. My first time in our ward was when you spoke in Sacrament. I loved your talk and couldn't figure out why everyone was so upset with you." He then went on to explain how and why he loved my talk. I was frankly flattered that he even remembered it, because it was some years ago. I was flattered for that but also it really hit me hard to hear him say how everyone has been speaking ill of me. Everyone? Come on. I know a number of people have a problem with me, but the way he made it universal was hard to hear. He mentioned the talk and how the bishop was particularly upset with me. He indicated in so saying, though, that it seemed the bishop missed the whole point I had made. And it has been unfair how they've silenced or tried to silence me, as if there was some reason for it. While the bishop asked me to stop sharing my thoughts for the most part, the SP asked to stop talking about anything controversial, which made me wonder what he meant since most of what he says is controversial to me. Anyway, I've been skirting around in Church wondering if all of my thoughts are controversial and thus not welcome. I haven't gotten a handle on what I could offer that would be welcome vs what I could offer that would not be. Played with my little brain some. He said, "Hey, I like you. I think you offer great thoughts and ideas and love having you in our ward and quorum. If it were up to me I'd leave you free to share openly." This goes along with a couple of conversations I"ve been a part of lately...are "other" thoughts welcome? Should they be? Is it more important we control the ward members or that we love them? I was sincerely touched. It made me remember how wonderful Church is and can be. Have you listened to Bill Real's latest podcast on "Spiritual Trauma"? Bill hits the nail on the head with respect to the inability within the church to speak our own truth...I highly recommend it. https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/mormon-discussion-podcast/id562296100?mt=2
Tacenda Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Have you listened to Bill Real's latest podcast on "Spiritual Trauma"? Bill hits the nail on the head with respect to the inability within the church to speak our own truth...I highly recommend it. https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/mormon-discussion-podcast/id562296100?mt=2 Going to listen today, now that it's not a Premium. My Premium account expired a few months ago. Was glad Bill let this one become available early. I do believe that people that go through a faith crisis do suffer. It may be hard for some TBM's to fathom. Maybe this podcast will give a better picture.
stemelbow Posted June 7, 2017 Author Posted June 7, 2017 30 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Have you listened to Bill Real's latest podcast on "Spiritual Trauma"? Bill hits the nail on the head with respect to the inability within the church to speak our own truth...I highly recommend it. https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/mormon-discussion-podcast/id562296100?mt=2 After one minute of listening, he pleads, "please dont' listen to this by yourself...don't let kids listen..." kind of a cryptic beginning. What's going on here? The times I have to listen is when I'm by myself. Ah well, I guess I'll go against his caution and give it a go.
Tacenda Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 13 minutes ago, stemelbow said: After one minute of listening, he pleads, "please dont' listen to this by yourself...don't let kids listen..." kind of a cryptic beginning. What's going on here? The times I have to listen is when I'm by myself. Ah well, I guess I'll go against his caution and give it a go. Woah, what am I in for?
Johnnie Cake Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) 45 minutes ago, stemelbow said: After one minute of listening, he pleads, "please dont' listen to this by yourself...don't let kids listen..." kind of a cryptic beginning. What's going on here? The times I have to listen is when I'm by myself. Ah well, I guess I'll go against his caution and give it a go. It's a very raw, vulnerable, honest podcast on Mormon Spiritual Abuse. I believe that the warning is to those who might be triggered from an honest confronting of Spiritual Abuse within the church. From what I think I know of your situation, I believe that this podcast will hit home with you and let you know that you are not alone. Edited June 7, 2017 by Johnnie Cake
Jeanne Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 3 hours ago, Tacenda said: Going to listen today, now that it's not a Premium. My Premium account expired a few months ago. Was glad Bill let this one become available early. I do believe that people that go through a faith crisis do suffer. It may be hard for some TBM's to fathom. Maybe this podcast will give a better picture. Yo...I am not set up for itunes..is there another way?
Pete Ahlstrom Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 17 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Yo...I am not set up for itunes..is there another way? http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/
Jeanne Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 8 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said: http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/ Thank you!!!!!
Tacenda Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Jeanne said: Yo...I am not set up for itunes..is there another way? Just got this, glad you got a response. It was something huh? Bill didn't make it easy on us did he?
stemelbow Posted June 7, 2017 Author Posted June 7, 2017 4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: It's a very raw, vulnerable, honest podcast on Mormon Spiritual Abuse. I believe that the warning is to those who might be triggered from an honest confronting of Spiritual Abuse within the church. From what I think I know of your situation, I believe that this podcast will hit home with you and let you know that you are not alone. It was good. Even I might say it was a bit over-dramatic. But, in all I think I agree. This represents a big problem in the Church.
Johnnie Cake Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 2 minutes ago, stemelbow said: It was good. Even I might say it was a bit over-dramatic. But, in all I think I agree. This represents a big problem in the Church. What Bill was getting at...is that the entire church power structure is set up to lend support to its official narrative which has been demonstrated to be as Bushman says Not True or sustainable. This power structure has put the blame for our discovery on us rather then themselves. As Bill correctly points out...it is the church that must own their part in promoting their false narrative before any healing can take place. I won't be holding my breath
Johnnie Cake Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 Add: the church has created this false dichotomy that it is the one true church on the face of the earth with Jesus at its head... so getting it to admit mistakes and ask forgiveness of its members undermines its false narrative. The church has too much at stake to do this...so I don't see it happening any time soon unless enough people stand up, walk out and demand that it be accountable for the damage it has inflicted by its decision to with hold a fuller more honest narrative
Pete Ahlstrom Posted June 8, 2017 Posted June 8, 2017 8 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Add: the church has created this false dichotomy that it is the one true church on the face of the earth with Jesus at its head... so getting it to admit mistakes and ask forgiveness of its members undermines its false narrative. The church has too much at stake to do this...so I don't see it happening any time soon unless enough people stand up, walk out and demand that it be accountable for the damage it has inflicted by its decision to with hold a fuller more honest narrative I think one thing that needs to be pointed out is that even though the church (leadership) is to blame here, the member/victims aren't. Members for the most part didn't hide or "de-emphasize" the true history. They may perpetuate the mischaracterizations but aren't the authors.
stemelbow Posted June 8, 2017 Author Posted June 8, 2017 15 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: What Bill was getting at...is that the entire church power structure is set up to lend support to its official narrative which has been demonstrated to be as Bushman says Not True or sustainable. This power structure has put the blame for our discovery on us rather then themselves. As Bill correctly points out...it is the church that must own their part in promoting their false narrative before any healing can take place. I won't be holding my breath I completely agreed with him on that.
stemelbow Posted June 8, 2017 Author Posted June 8, 2017 13 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Add: the church has created this false dichotomy that it is the one true church on the face of the earth with Jesus at its head... so getting it to admit mistakes and ask forgiveness of its members undermines its false narrative. The church has too much at stake to do this...so I don't see it happening any time soon unless enough people stand up, walk out and demand that it be accountable for the damage it has inflicted by its decision to with hold a fuller more honest narrative Probably true. I remember back a few years ago when Pres Uchtdorf gave us a piece or two (leaders "made mistakes"). I was going, "wahoo...things are changing. the Church is going to fess up and we'll finally be able to move forward." But since then there's been very little on this.
stemelbow Posted June 8, 2017 Author Posted June 8, 2017 5 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said: I think one thing that needs to be pointed out is that even though the church (leadership) is to blame here, the member/victims aren't. Members for the most part didn't hide or "de-emphasize" the true history. They may perpetuate the mischaracterizations but aren't the authors. As the years roll on though, the members too are going to be less and less innocent in this--I know a number who know the history and yet still think the Church has not hid anything, or not massaged the narrative to be something other than what is the history.
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