Good Faith Discussions

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/catholicauthenticity/2016/06/spiritual-gaslighting/

Replace "Catholic" with "Mormon", some of the description applies...and in the comment section it is the same in other religions as well. 

Tacenda, the article literally starts off with:

Quote

 

Gaslighting is one of those terms that I see cropping up occasionally on the internet, but until yesterday I had only a very vague notion of what it meant. (By vague, I mean I knew it was something that women who were stalked or abused often complained about, but that was it.) So I finally decided that I actually wanted to know what it meant and I looked it up.

 

IOW, she knew nothing about it, spent some time during the day googling it, and made generalized connections to negative experiences in the culture of her catholic faith. This is just another example of what started the previous thread and indicates nothing more than that the tendency to misuse terms is a fairly common human experience. It's still misapplied.

 

With luv,

BD

[Tacenda]

29 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Tacenda, the article literally starts off with:

IOW, she knew nothing about it, spent some time during the day googling it, and made generalized connections to negative experiences in the culture of her catholic faith. This is just another example of what started the previous thread and indicates nothing more than that the tendency to misuse terms is a fairly common human experience. It's still misapplied.

 

With luv,

BD

Bluedreams, I feel that there are a few on here that appear to subtly gaslight (without realizing it) those that speak of the harm they feel they've received from being in this church and many non LDS religions. If you look up religion and gaslighting you'll see several sites. There must be something to it. Below are some things stated by a disaffected LDS in green...so similar to the Catholic in the other article I linked to. 

Mormonism - isn't it all about Gaslighting

Someone on another thread made a reference to the psychological manipulation technique of gaslighting. Wikipedia describes it as "false information is presented to the victim with the intent of making them doubt their own memory and perception. It may simply be the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, or it could be the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim." I spent some time researching it tonight and found a list of questions in a book (The Gaslight Effect by Robin Stern) to ask yourself if you think you are being gaslighted. Is it just me or do you see Mormon-think written all over this?

1. You constantly second-guess yourself. -- A major component in Mormonism is "Am I doing the right thing? WWJD?"

2. You wonder, “Am I being too sensitive?” a dozen times a day. -- Mormons are constantly told not to be offended no matter how grievous the offense.

3. You wonder frequently if you are a “good enough” girlfriend/wife/employee/friend/daughter -- bishop, calling, temple recommend.

4. You have trouble making simple decisions. -- thank goodness the leadership has done all the thinking for you and all you have to do is obey.

5. You think twice before bringing up innocent topics of conversation. -- Because you don't want to be pegged as not valiant or questioning. You don't want people to get the wrong idea of how strong your testimony is.

6. You frequently make excuses for your partner’s behavior to friends and family. -- or about the weird practices of Mormonism that you excuse as sacred.

7. Before your partner comes home from work, you run through a checklist in your head to anticipate anything you might have done wrong that day. -- much like you worry about all the things you've left undone for the Savior.

8. You buy clothes for yourself, furnishings for your apartment, or other personal purchases thinking about what your partner would like instead of what would make you feel great. -- Anyone seen Mormon art lately? Because you want to decorate like the faithful, no matter what you actually like.

9. You actually start to enjoy the constant criticism, because you think, “What doesn’t kill me will make me stronger.” -- That's why so many talks in Mormonism feature some aspect of raising the bar.

10. You start speaking to your husband through his secretary so you don’t have to tell him things you’re afraid might upset him. -- OK, this one not so much.

11. You start lying to avoid the put-downs and reality twists. -- Do you know any Mormons that live a lie to appear more righteous, prosperous, worthy so other members won't look down on them?

12. You feel as though you can’t do anything right. -- Do Mormons?

13. You frequently wonder if you’re good enough for your lover. -- Do any Mormons feel like they are good enough?

14. Your kids start trying to protect you from being humiliated by your partner. -- This one also not so much.

15. You feel hopeless and joyless. -- Someone remind me exactly how many LDS people are on anti-depressants.

I'd also like to mention that trying to get people to pray as a way to dismiss provable historical and scientific fact messes with peoples' minds and gets them to doubt reality. So, yes I'd say it looks like the LDS church may use practices of psychological abuse to manipulate people.,

 

Edited May 14, 2017 by Tacenda

[probablyHagoth7]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

...some of the description applies...and in the comment section it is the same in other religions as well. 

"Now, I’m not saying that the Church is [fill in the blank] – just that there are elements of [this] culture that are that way, and that it’s understandable that people who get sucked in to the crazy often end up thinking that this is the Church."

Having difficulty seeing why a default position happens to be uproar over such a simple reality...with an ongoing refusal to proceed beyond semantic tangents...Especially when it's actually not the word itself that some are unwilling to proceed beyond...it's instead the slightly-uncomfortable but non-shocking realities beyond that (or any similar) word.

[probablyHagoth7]

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

...indicates nothing more than that the tendency to misuse terms is a fairly common human experience. It's still misapplied....

Standard English attests otherwise.

Any reader here can consult *any* standard English dictionary.

With considerable respect for your credentials, your specialized jargon does *not* trump plain English.

Your niche profession neither coined the term, nor determines/controls it's meaning(s) after the fact.

That word is no different than any other. Someone can still don *gay* apparel one season each year without surrendering to some subset of the culture what *that* word must now mean.

2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

With luv

Ditto.

Hoping this discussion can soon proceed...in good faith...

Edited May 14, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[probablyHagoth7]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

...there are a few on here that appear to subtly gaslight (without realizing it) those that speak of the harm they feel...There must be something to it.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[probablyHagoth7]

Thanks for this thread. I had hoped it might be a helpful setting to solidify my understanding of some key things over the last several years.

Things that might help me understand, forgive, and move beyond. 

This apparently ain't the place/people for that big step forward.

But thanks for playing anyhoo. 

[Tacenda]

38 minutes ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

Thanks for this thread. I had hoped it might be a helpful setting to solidify my understanding of some key things over the last several years.

Things that might help me understand, forgive, and move beyond. 

This apparently ain't the place/people for that big step forward.

But thanks for playing anyhoo. 

probablyHagoth7, not to derail but would you mind giving me some of your story. I can't tell if you disagree with me or agree? Your intelligence is probably over my head, or I really am on the road to dementia! Are you in any way related to the other Hagoth? 

[probablyHagoth7]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

probablyHagoth7, not to derail but would you mind giving me some of your story. 

Clearly can't do it here. The forum would implode. 

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I can't tell if you disagree with me or agree? 

Gaslighting happens. It has even happened to a limited/ironic degree *within* threads on this very topic.(From what I can tell, it happens on a *very* limited/selective basis.) 

It may even be a form of roasting. And/or a prolonged form of testing akin to what Joseph conducted back in Nauvou. If the latter, I might be failing terribly and sent back to redo kindergarten. Naps in the middle of the day might not be too bad, as long as I get my special blanket and get to snuggle my teddy bear. 

 

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Your intelligence is probably over my head, or I really am on the road to dementia! 

Merely on the road to dementia? I'm camped at the last exit. I regularly have to tell people not to drive *me* crazy specifically because it's a *very* short drive. 

Cue: Scaling The Cliffs of Insanity (Princess Bride)

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Are you in any way related to the other Hagoth? 

Depends on what you mean. I operated initially years back as hagoth7, then as notHagoth7, and more recently as probablyHagoth7 (I'm easily amused). 

If you mean the real-life Hagoth (from Alma 63), my answer is yes there is a connection there, but that's a matter for a separate thread. :0)

Edited May 14, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[Meadowchik]

7 hours ago, Danzo said:

The problem is that it seems that you have so twisted and modified the meaning of 'gaslight' into something only you know the meaning of.  Of course we 'gaslight' because whatever it is we do, you have defined it as 'gaslighting'.  

What's the point of any discussion? 

Actually I have defined it quite specifically to you in a specific case when you asked, Danzo, in the other thread. I told you that as long as you were not dishonest after their temple experience, you would not imo be gaslighting the family you are helping.

And in this thread I have also been quite specific. An example is in a reply to rongo earlier.

[Meadowchik]

7 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

If I may add just one note. For post-Mormons (we'll post any faith) it can be like ex-smokers. They not only seek to change the way those who are still happily attending Church (or to extend the metaphor) still happily smoking. But they are not successful, they become aggravated and begin browbeating until others submit. It always begins in a loving manner, but soon goes down hill quickly. Truth is, be it those inside or outside the Church, they all need and crave converts to reinforce their beliefs, or lack of belief. 

I wouldn't lump people so equivalently into the same paradigm. The Mormon church indeed proselytizes, it's a mission, it represents an enormous investment and is expected of all members.

Ex-mormons can come in all stripes and contact with them can happen in all stages of their leaving. They are not members of the same institution and do not share a mission nor are they subject to an authority commanding them to proselytize. 

Mormons are always expected to be missionaries to some degree. Ex-mormons aren't subject to such rules, are probably more vocal when they're angry but then become less attached to any label and just live their lives on the outside.

Some cannot leave Mormonism behind though because it surrounds them, pervading their society and family.

More and more, former LDS are creating support groups to help people who are leaving or who no longer believe but cannot leave. 

[Meadowchik]

7 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I grew up in a very fundamental Baptist Church, one room (even though a very large room) that sat about 400. It was a place where (in some part but not all) sermons were shouted, and Pastor would walk up and down the main isle seeking to make contact. This served to be a very persuasive form of control, even though they meant it in love, I truly believe. So upon taking the missionary discussions while in the Army in Germany in the late 70's, looking back I thought..."these guys never get excited, never browbeat, never loud and certainly never controlling. Almost four decades later, I see the Church as even less controlling, if such a word could be used. I have known many members living here in Georgia, just 20 miles from my childhood Church, for thee of those decades. The Church still sends home teachers, still seeks (as the scriptures tell us) to bring them into the fold, "by gentleness, meekness and love unfeigned" D&C 121) If there is another LDS Church maybe I have just been lucky, because I don't know it. 

But, I am not big on control, because much like a mule, when I feel pushed or pulled I just sit down and wait for others to come to their senses.  

Yup, I'm not big on control, either.

I attended several churches with my friends in my youth as the weird Mormon, the church you describe sounds familiar.

There are controlling elements in the LDS church, though, but they certainly are not typically seen in the form of loud and blustery speeches.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Meadowchik

[BlueDreams]

12 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Bluedreams, I feel that there are a few on here that appear to subtly gaslight (without realizing it) those that speak of the harm they feel they've received from being in this church and many non LDS religions. If you look up religion and gaslighting you'll see several sites. There must be something to it. Below are some things stated by a disaffected LDS in green...so similar to the Catholic in the other article I linked to. 

I'm going to try to use my more calm voice on this one. I realized that this was really irritating me for some reason. And then I realized it was in part that I have witnessed real spiritual gaslighting in my clients, some very recently (usually between their partner or their parents)....and it's not as you or others here advocating it be used in more global terms are describing it. I've also seen others use poorly misapplied psychological terms such as abuse to further railroad others and inevitably make situations worse and help less likely to come. So I've seen how terms misapplied can also cause real harm. To me this isn't a small accusation. It holds a lot of weight and meaning in my world as I'm working to pick up the pieces of the tattered souls left in my office. Then there's the irony/double-bind that we're left in if we seriously question the definition and the experiences mentioned. By your definition, I am subtly gaslighting by doing so. I'm not saying that you are accusing me of this Tacenda....but it's the logical conclusion of the first sentence. I strongly disagree with how it's being used, I question the validity of the examples given and believe they point to other things, and I am prodding at the perceptions others have. "gaslighting"....wala.  

Words have meaning. And some words have potency to them. This is one of them. We can't rearrange them to throw accusations at another. 

And I googled religion and gaslighting and found sites, sure. They were entirely blog posts, opinion pieces, and discussion forums talking about the differences or arguing a case for it. All of them. You're right, there is a thing....it's the thing that was happening on the previous thread and its the thing that I'm still critical of here: misapplied and misunderstood terms becoming popular when someone feels hurt by an experience. It's not actually gaslighting...but it has to be something, because it hurt.....so it's "gaslighting"...this amorphous loosely defined application of the actual psychological abuse.

And this:

Quote

 

Mormonism - isn't it all about Gaslighting

Someone on another thread made a reference to the psychological manipulation technique of gaslighting. Wikipedia describes it as "false information is presented to the victim with the intent of making them doubt their own memory and perception. It may simply be the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, or it could be the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim." I spent some time researching it tonight and found a list of questions in a book (The Gaslight Effect by Robin Stern) to ask yourself if you think you are being gaslighted. Is it just me or do you see Mormon-think written all over this?

 

Is yet another example of the same thing. This is starting to remind me of those buzzfeed quizzes that tells you what type of a person you are or which state you really should live in and everybody is like "yeah, that's so me!" Consensus doesn't equal viability, let alone validity. What follows isn't just a stretch, it's at some points absolutely ridiculous and has the validity to me of reading a horoscope and seeing patterns in your life....except it's not just their life, but every mormons life. And other numbered points, point to personal problems moreso than church ones....ones that have a common theme in ex-lds communities....but that I can barely relate to, because my experience and personality don't fit this at all. And I'm uber mormon. My favorite ridiculous one has to be this one:

 

Quote

8. You buy clothes for yourself, furnishings for your apartment, or other personal purchases thinking about what your partner would like instead of what would make you feel great. -- Anyone seen Mormon art lately? Because you want to decorate like the faithful, no matter what you actually like.

Right now I'm laying in my bed, lazily typing this before breakfast. My bedroom is full of bold colors, with soft yellow-gold walls, deep red curtains, a blue comforter and a mexican indigenous blanket that is covered in square patches that echo these colors. On my walls is photography, a few of my paintings, a signed picture of Obama, and some LDS art. It's very pickily chosen, from some of my favorite LDS artists: Rose Datoc Dal, J Kirk Richards, and Annie Henrie. Look them up, and you will see why I found this ridiculous. Nothing about this represents me or my experience...but this one can't even represent the bedroom I'm currently in. Rather it follows his/her experience and his/her cultural expectations that he/she wrote down as basically law somehow. It then pidgeonholes and stereotypes LDS experiences in such a way that throws me (ie. the faithful) under a group-think bus. But again, if I come back and say "that's pretty stupid and not representative of LDS experiences" I could be seen as attacking and feasible subtle gaslighting... again by a super loose interpretation of gaslighting that basically means questioning other's experiences or prodding at their perception. Which then brings me back to the problem of what happens when terms that have a very specific meaning are ham-stringed to mean just about anything. It tells you basically nothing and is about as helpful as taking an online pop-culture quiz seriously. 

 

 

With luv,

BD     

Edited May 14, 2017 by BlueDreams

[BlueDreams]

12 hours ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

Standard English attests otherwise.

Any reader here can consult *any* standard English dictionary.

With considerable respect for your credentials, your specialized jargon does *not* trump plain English.

Your niche profession neither coined the term, nor determines/controls it's meaning(s) after the fact.

That word is no different than any other. Someone can still don *gay* apparel one season each year without surrendering to some subset of the culture what *that* word must now mean.

Ditto.

Hoping this discussion can soon proceed...in good faith...

Quickly, because I'm hungry and really need to get out of my nice warm blankets. I have googled "gaslighting definition" now a couple of times. To get a sense of that "standard english" use. All of them, including the movie the term is originally derived from, are talking about a form of psychological abuse and severe manipulation. This isn't about my niche. On the first page, almost all the sources that popped up for from psychology and counseling websites. 

But heck, even urban dictionary, the one with some of the silliest definitions and that generally has a finger on the pulse of common vernacular use states this:

Quote

A form of intimidation or psychological abuse, sometimes called Ambient Abuse where false information is presented to the victim, making them doubt their own memory, perception and quite often, their sanity. The classic example of gaslighting is to switch something around on someone that you know they're sure to notice, but then deny knowing anything about it, and to explain that they "must be imagining things" when they challenge these changes.

A more psychological definition of gaslighting is "an increasing frequency of systematically withholding factual information from, and/or providing false information to, the victim - having the gradual effect of making them anxious, confused, and less able to trust their own memory and perception.

Gaslighting is firmly seated in my "niche field" ...AKA the world of therapy, counseling, and psychology. Even in standard english use.

 

With luv,

BD