Bound metal plates in Jordan

[Rivers]

http://awm.com/scientist-finally-realize-what-2000-year-old-tablet-says-about-jesus-christians-rejoice-2/?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=america&utm_content=20170213_0720

[mapman]

Those are forgeries. They've been discussed here before. (I like your profile picture btw!)

[Johnnie Cake]

22 hours ago, Rivers said:

http://awm.com/scientist-finally-realize-what-2000-year-old-tablet-says-about-jesus-christians-rejoice-2/?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=america&utm_content=20170213_0720

Yup forgeries

[Bobbieaware]

23 hours ago, mapman said:

Those are forgeries. They've been discussed here before. (I like your profile picture btw!)

And that is precisely what most of the experts of the world would say if they were given the opportunity to closely examine the gold plates of the Book of Mormon. They would say the written language inscribed on the plates is a bogus invention and that the plates themselves are a modern production.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[bsjkki]

20 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

And that is precisely what most of the experts of the world would say if they were given the opportunity to closely examine the gold plates of the Book of Mormon. They would say the written language inscribed on the plates is a bogus invention and that the plates themselves are a modern production.

I had not seen this story before so looked it up. Here is a more recent article about the Jordan tablets. This article is from November of 2016.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3985150/Is-written-mention-Jesus-2-000-year-old-lead-tablets-remote-cave-genuine-claim-researchers.html

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

And that is precisely what most of the experts of the world would say if they were given the opportunity to closely examine the gold plates of the Book of Mormon. They would say the written language inscribed on the plates is a bogus invention and that the plates themselves are a modern production.

A near perfect example of apriorism.  

You would no doubt say the same of the various inscribed copper, bronze, silver, and gold plates used in ancient times in Egypt, Byblos, Palestine, etc.,[1] including Orphic gold plates buried with the dead, a Phoenician Text from the Etruscan Sanctuary at Pyrgi, Italy (Pyrgi Tablets), Metal Documents in Stone Boxes, an Etruscan Gold Book from 600 B.C. (a six-page 24-carat gold book bound with rings, found in a tomb in Bulgaria ca. 1943), an eight-page cuneiform golden codex found in 2005 in Teheran, Iran (from the Achaemenid period and bound with four rings), and a recent find of gold plates of about the same size as the Book of Mormon plates in a royal tomb in China.[2]  Aside from those, we have the green jasper and gold heart-scarab from the Theban tomb of Sobekemsaf (17^th Dyn), with BD spell 30B incised on the gold baseplate,[3] and there are thin gold and silver foil amulets with ancient Egyptian decans depicted thereon, found in Sardinia and Carthage.[4]

Alan Millard interprets Hebrew gillayon gadol (Isaiah 8:1 ǁ2 Nephi 18:1; cf. Isaiah 3:23) as “large writing tablet,” saying:

 

In light of the Ketef Hinnom amulets, the “large writing tablet,” gillayon gadol, may denote a sheet of metal, assuming the gilyonim of 3:23 are “mirrors,” on which letters would need to be written by incision with a graving tool (heret).[5]

 

Cf. Isaiah 30:8 Hebrew lûaḥ “plate, tablet” (a permanent record), as in lûaḥ (sēper);  ḥqq “engrave” = bʻr  “incise” in Habakkuk 2:2 – with a ḥereṭ “stylus.”[6]  Such a stylus or engraving tool could be metal itself, or a very hard stone such as flint or obsidian.  A gold-copper alloy such as tumbaga would have a very thin, soft surface and thick, hard interior, thus making engraving relatively easy.  In Jeremiah 17:1 an iron stylus with a diamond tip is described, even if meant metaphorically.

Note the cognate parallel meaning between Hebrew lûaḥ “plate, tablet,” and Akkadian lēʼu, lēḫu, lû “writing-board, plate” (Sumerian ^gišli-u₅-um), which could be of wood, stone, or metal.[7]

---

[1] Nibley, Lehi in the Desert, 2^nd ed., CWHN V:105-107, citing (among others) W. F. Albright, AA Hebrew Letter of the Twelfth Century,@ BASOR, 73 (Feb 1939):9-13; E. Budge, Book of the Dead (London: British Museum/Longmans & Co., 1895), xix, n. 3; cf. C. Wilfred Griggs, “The Book of Mormon as an Ancient Book,” BYU Studies, 22/3 (1982): 259–278 (Orphic gold plates buried with the dead); Philip C. Schmitz, AThe Phoenician Text from the Etruscan Sanctuary at Pyrgi,” Journal of the American Oriental Society, 115/4 (Oct - Dec 1995):559-575 (Pyrgi Tablets); H. Curtis Wright, AAncient Burials of Metal Documents in Stone Boxes,@ in J. Lundquist & S. Ricks, eds., By Study and Also By Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley, 2 vols. (FARMS/Deseret, 1990), II:273-334; H. Curtis Wright, Modern Presentism and Ancient Metallic Epigraphy (SLC: Wings of Fire, 2006); John A. Tvedtnes, “Etruscan Gold Book from 600 B.C. Discovered,” Insights, 23/5 (2003):1,6 (6-page 24-carat gold book bound with rings, found in a tomb in Bulgaria ca. 1943); William J. Hamblin, ASacred Writing on Metal Plates in the Ancient Mediterranean,” FARMS Review,19/1 (2007):37-54; an 8-page cuneiform golden codex found in 2005 in Teheran, Iran (from the Achaemenid period and attached with four rings), can be seen online at http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2005/October2005/11-10.htm ; cf. https://www.yahoo.com/?fr=yset_ff_syc_oracle&type=hpset .

[2] Jenny Stanton, “Gold plates and coins among valuable haul unearthed by archaeologists at 2,000-year-old royal tombs in China ,” Daily Mail Online, Dec 27, 2015, online at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3375474/Gold-plates-coins-valuable-haul-unearthed-archaeologists-2-000-year-old-royal-tombs-China.html , with Xinhua photo at http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/12/27/17/2FA160FA00000578-3375474-Gold_plates_measuring_23cm_long_10cm_wide_and_0_3cm_were_found_i-a-88_1451237378084.jpg .

[3] I. E. S. Edwards, “Sebekemsaf’s ‘Heart Scarab’,” in P. Posener-Kriéger, ed., Mélanges Gamal Eddin Mokhtar, 2 vols. (Cairo: IFAO, 1985), I:239-245, British Museum EA7876, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zw7RbJ_kgOA/UwZ8xRkRZxI/AAAAAAAABhk/fnPoGjZ4ILc/s1600/ps328079_l.jpg ; see also Gianluca Miniaci and Susan La Neice, “Analytical Study of the First Royal Heart-Scarab Attributed to a Seventeenth Dynasty King, Sobekemsaf,” online at  http://www.academia.edu/8048280/Analytical_study_of_the_first_royal_Egyptian_heart-scarab_attributed_to_a_Seventeenth_Dynasty_king_Sobekemsaf \

[4] EEF email notice from Enrico Dirminti, Scuola di Specializzazione, University of Cagliari, Oct 2, 2013; J. Quack has them in his dissertation, which he is preparing for publication.

[5] Alan Millard, “`Take a large writing tablet and write on it’: Isaiah – A writing prophet?” In Katherine J. Dell, Graham Davies,  and Yee Von Koh, eds., Genesis, Isaiah and Psalms: A Festschrift to Honor Professor John Emerton for his Eightieth Birthday (Leiden/ Boston: Brill, 2010), 115-116.  My thanks to Matt Roper, who called this source to my attention.

[6] F. I. Andersen, Habakkuk, Anchor Bible 25 (Doubleday, 2001), 203-204.

[7] Tawil, Akkadian Lexical Companion, 187.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[Stargazer]

Nevermind

[Bobbieaware]

On 2/15/2017 at 3:25 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

A near perfect example of apriorism.  

You would no doubt say the same of the various inscribed copper, bronze, silver, and gold plates used in ancient times in Egypt, Byblos, Palestine, etc.,[1] including Orphic gold plates buried with the dead, a Phoenician Text from the Etruscan Sanctuary at Pyrgi, Italy (Pyrgi Tablets), Metal Documents in Stone Boxes, an Etruscan Gold Book from 600 B.C. (a six-page 24-carat gold book bound with rings, found in a tomb in Bulgaria ca. 1943), an eight-page cuneiform golden codex found in 2005 in Teheran, Iran (from the Achaemenid period and bound with four rings), and a recent find of gold plates of about the same size as the Book of Mormon plates in a royal tomb in China.[2]  Aside from those, we have the green jasper and gold heart-scarab from the Theban tomb of Sobekemsaf (17^th Dyn), with BD spell 30B incised on the gold baseplate,[3] and there are thin gold and silver foil amulets with ancient Egyptian decans depicted thereon, found in Sardinia and Carthage.[4]

Alan Millard interprets Hebrew gillayon gadol (Isaiah 8:1 ǁ2 Nephi 18:1; cf. Isaiah 3:23) as “large writing tablet,” saying:

 

In light of the Ketef Hinnom amulets, the “large writing tablet,” gillayon gadol, may denote a sheet of metal, assuming the gilyonim of 3:23 are “mirrors,” on which letters would need to be written by incision with a graving tool (heret).[5]

 

Cf. Isaiah 30:8 Hebrew lûaḥ “plate, tablet” (a permanent record), as in lûaḥ (sēper);  ḥqq “engrave” = bʻr  “incise” in Habakkuk 2:2 – with a ḥereṭ “stylus.”[6]  Such a stylus or engraving tool could be metal itself, or a very hard stone such as flint or obsidian.  A gold-copper alloy such as tumbaga would have a very thin, soft surface and thick, hard interior, thus making engraving relatively easy.  In Jeremiah 17:1 an iron stylus with a diamond tip is described, even if meant metaphorically.

Note the cognate parallel meaning between Hebrew lûaḥ “plate, tablet,” and Akkadian lēʼu, lēḫu, lû “writing-board, plate” (Sumerian ^gišli-u₅-um), which could be of wood, stone, or metal.[7]

---

[1] Nibley, Lehi in the Desert, 2^nd ed., CWHN V:105-107, citing (among others) W. F. Albright, AA Hebrew Letter of the Twelfth Century,@ BASOR, 73 (Feb 1939):9-13; E. Budge, Book of the Dead (London: British Museum/Longmans & Co., 1895), xix, n. 3; cf. C. Wilfred Griggs, “The Book of Mormon as an Ancient Book,” BYU Studies, 22/3 (1982): 259–278 (Orphic gold plates buried with the dead); Philip C. Schmitz, AThe Phoenician Text from the Etruscan Sanctuary at Pyrgi,” Journal of the American Oriental Society, 115/4 (Oct - Dec 1995):559-575 (Pyrgi Tablets); H. Curtis Wright, AAncient Burials of Metal Documents in Stone Boxes,@ in J. Lundquist & S. Ricks, eds., By Study and Also By Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley, 2 vols. (FARMS/Deseret, 1990), II:273-334; H. Curtis Wright, Modern Presentism and Ancient Metallic Epigraphy (SLC: Wings of Fire, 2006); John A. Tvedtnes, “Etruscan Gold Book from 600 B.C. Discovered,” Insights, 23/5 (2003):1,6 (6-page 24-carat gold book bound with rings, found in a tomb in Bulgaria ca. 1943); William J. Hamblin, ASacred Writing on Metal Plates in the Ancient Mediterranean,” FARMS Review,19/1 (2007):37-54; an 8-page cuneiform golden codex found in 2005 in Teheran, Iran (from the Achaemenid period and attached with four rings), can be seen online at http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2005/October2005/11-10.htm ; cf. https://www.yahoo.com/?fr=yset_ff_syc_oracle&type=hpset .

[2] Jenny Stanton, “Gold plates and coins among valuable haul unearthed by archaeologists at 2,000-year-old royal tombs in China ,” Daily Mail Online, Dec 27, 2015, online at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3375474/Gold-plates-coins-valuable-haul-unearthed-archaeologists-2-000-year-old-royal-tombs-China.html , with Xinhua photo at http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/12/27/17/2FA160FA00000578-3375474-Gold_plates_measuring_23cm_long_10cm_wide_and_0_3cm_were_found_i-a-88_1451237378084.jpg .

[3] I. E. S. Edwards, “Sebekemsaf’s ‘Heart Scarab’,” in P. Posener-Kriéger, ed., Mélanges Gamal Eddin Mokhtar, 2 vols. (Cairo: IFAO, 1985), I:239-245, British Museum EA7876, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zw7RbJ_kgOA/UwZ8xRkRZxI/AAAAAAAABhk/fnPoGjZ4ILc/s1600/ps328079_l.jpg ; see also Gianluca Miniaci and Susan La Neice, “Analytical Study of the First Royal Heart-Scarab Attributed to a Seventeenth Dynasty King, Sobekemsaf,” online at  http://www.academia.edu/8048280/Analytical_study_of_the_first_royal_Egyptian_heart-scarab_attributed_to_a_Seventeenth_Dynasty_king_Sobekemsaf \

[4] EEF email notice from Enrico Dirminti, Scuola di Specializzazione, University of Cagliari, Oct 2, 2013; J. Quack has them in his dissertation, which he is preparing for publication.

[5] Alan Millard, “`Take a large writing tablet and write on it’: Isaiah – A writing prophet?” In Katherine J. Dell, Graham Davies,  and Yee Von Koh, eds., Genesis, Isaiah and Psalms: A Festschrift to Honor Professor John Emerton for his Eightieth Birthday (Leiden/ Boston: Brill, 2010), 115-116.  My thanks to Matt Roper, who called this source to my attention.

[6] F. I. Andersen, Habakkuk, Anchor Bible 25 (Doubleday, 2001), 203-204.

[7] Tawil, Akkadian Lexical Companion, 187.

I appreciate all the effort but you missed my point (I should have elaborated so as to not be misunderstood). My point is that if if the original Book of Mormon plates were shown to the world and presented as the authentic ancient American Nephite record from which the Book of Mormon was translated, and if the world's greatest experts were then given the opportunity to study and closely examine the plates, very few, if any, would believe any of it was true. There's no doubt in my mind but that quite nearly all would view the whole episode as either a massive hoax or a fraudulent misrepresentation.

Edited February 26, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

I appreciate all the effort but you missed my point (I should have elaborated so as to not be misunderstood). My point is that if if the original Book of Mormon plates were shown to the world and presented as the authentic ancient American Nephite record from which the Book of Mormon was translated, and if the world's greatest experts were then given the opportunity to study and closely examine the plates, very few, if any, would believe any of it was true. There's no doubt in my mind but that quite nearly all would view the whole episode as either a massive hoax or a fraudulent misrepresentation.

I have a whole lot more faith in modern scholarship, particularly in the leading scholars who could be called upon to draw their own conclusions based on scientific tests and actual translation of the characters.  However, of course, we will see no such scenario played out, so it will be impossible to say just exactly what might happen.