Scripture Study: Romans 16

[Woody]

I like to discuss the scriptures with people. I've found that digging into a specific chapter can be a very valuable exercise.

Romans 16, the last chapter of the epistle, has some interesting puzzles and touches upon several issues that have come up recently in threads here.

The text is online in a thousand places but for convenience I'll post the King James here. What the hey, it's 500 words:

===================
Romans 16

1. I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2. That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

3. Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
4. Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

5. Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
6. Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
7. Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
8. Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
9. Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.
10. Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household.
11. Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
12. Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
13. Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
14. Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.
15. Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
16. Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

17. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

19. For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
20. And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

21. Timotheus my workfellow, and Lucius, and Jason, and Sosipater, my kinsmen, salute you.

22. I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.

23. Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother.
24. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27. To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.

====================

I will be pointing out some things, but I'll give others a chance first

 

[CV75]

13 minutes ago, Woody said:

I like to discuss the scriptures with people. I've found that digging into a specific chapter can be a very valuable exercise.

Romans 16, the last chapter of the epistle, has some interesting puzzles and touches upon several issues that have come up recently in threads here.

The text is online in a thousand places but for convenience I'll post the King James here. What the hey, it's 500 words:

===================
Romans 16

1. I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2. That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

3. Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
4. Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

5. Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
6. Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
7. Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
8. Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
9. Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.
10. Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household.
11. Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
12. Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
13. Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
14. Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.
15. Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
16. Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

17. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

19. For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
20. And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

21. Timotheus my workfellow, and Lucius, and Jason, and Sosipater, my kinsmen, salute you.

22. I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.

23. Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother.
24. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27. To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.

====================

I will be pointing out some things, but I'll give others a chance first

 

Mistranslated:

verse 1 sister, which should be sister witch

verse 2, succourer should be sorcerer

 

 

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, Woody said:

I like to discuss the scriptures with people. I've found that digging into a specific chapter can be a very valuable exercise.

Romans 16, the last chapter of the epistle, has some interesting puzzles and touches upon several issues that have come up recently in threads here.

The text is online in a thousand places but for convenience I'll post the King James here. What the hey, it's 500 words:

===================
Romans 16

1. I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2. That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

3. Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
4. Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

5. Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
6. Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
7. Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
8. Greet Amplias my beloved in the Lord.
9. Salute Urbane, our helper in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.
10. Salute Apelles approved in Christ. Salute them which are of Aristobulus' household.
11. Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
12. Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labour in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which laboured much in the Lord.
13. Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
14. Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them.
15. Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
16. Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you.

17. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

19. For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.
20. And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

21. Timotheus my workfellow, and Lucius, and Jason, and Sosipater, my kinsmen, salute you.

22. I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.

23. Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother.
24. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27. To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.

====================

I will be pointing out some things, but I'll give others a chance first

 

When verse 25 says the Gospel was "kept secret," it means the Gospel was known, almost exclusively, by the descendants of Israel, it was not shared and but kept from all the other nations of the earth. This is why, prior to Cornelius' conversion and Peter's great revelation of the unclean beasts recorded in Acts, the Savior commanded his apostles they were only permitted to preach the Gospel to the "lost sheep of the House of Israel." But by the time Paul recited his Epistle to the Romans, God had made it clear the descendants of Israel could no longer consider themselves to be the sole guardians of the oracles of salvation, for the Gospel of Christ was now the common inheritance of all men.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith (I.e. cause the gentile nation to have the blessings of the Gospel), preached before the Gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. (Galatians 3)

Edited January 12, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Woody]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Mistranslated:

verse 1 sister, which should be sister witch

verse 2, succourer should be sorcerer

I don't understand your statement. Do you wish to elaborate?

[Bobbieaware]

3 minutes ago, Woody said:

I don't understand your statement. Do you wish to elaborate?

Joke

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Woody said:

===================
Romans 16

17. Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Well that's not very open minded - I don't think Paul liked differing doctrinal views.

Quote

25. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

I am curious which "mystery" came by revelation through Christ's teaching that was kept secret.
The mysteries tend to be a bit deeper than the first principles (atonement/baptism).

[CV75]

20 minutes ago, Woody said:

I don't understand your statement. Do you wish to elaborate?

Just a joke -- I look forward to what you will be pointing out. I will make no jokes about the salute verses, which are the earliest evidence of Israel's co-ed army.

Edited January 12, 2017 by CV75

[Woody]

17 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Just a joke -- I look forward to what you will be pointing out. I will make no jokes about the salute verses, which are the earliest evidence of Israel's co-ed army.

ha! You caught me blind side. I'm going to vote you a heart

[Woody]

That word "mystery" (μυστηριου) I think means 'secret ceremony where they put on special clothing'.

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Woody

[Bobbieaware]

7 minutes ago, Woody said:

ha! You caught me blind side. I'm going to vote you a heart

Me thinks Woody might very well be from Great Britain.

[Woody]

On the ordainwomen.org website's timeline, there is the statement "Phoebe is a deacon and Junia is an apostle in the early Christian church." Romans 16 is given as the origin of this.

Verse 1 mentions Phoebe with the word διακονον, but we should not blithely assume Paul meant the priesthood office. In the Restoration, the Lord has revealed that the lowest office in the lower priesthood is to be called the deacon, but the Greek word basically means a waiter or attendant or other menial worker. Paul's meaning might be either one.

We don't have to look very far to prove this. The previous chapter of Romans, verse 8, use the same word διακονον applied to Jesus. I don't think it's likely he was ever a priesthood deacon in the church; he was the one who organized the church. Of 55 translations I checked on Bible Gateway, not one of these translators thought Jesus was a deacon.

 

[Woody]

"Don't you just love that [British] accent? Everything sounds so smart!" -Ted Early, Life season 2 episode 17. (We happened to be watching it on netflix as I was looking at this). But I've ne'er been there.

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, Woody said:

"Don't you just love that [British] accent? Everything sounds so smart!" -Ted Early, Life season 2 episode 17. (We happened to be watching it on netflix as I was looking at this). But I've ne'er been there.

It was when you said "you caught ME blind side." The word 'my' is pronounced like the American 'me'in much of Great Britain, so I thought maybe there might be a connection. Perhaps you watched a pirate movie earlier in the day? "Shiver me timbers!"

 

Edited January 13, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Woody]

If I understand things correctly, the ancient language of the human family, passed down from Adam, had a written form that was ideographic - symbols represented ideas, sort of like this: <symbol><represent><idea>. The Chinese written language still works that way. There was apparently some mechanism that kept things static.

But as languages diverged, people were pronouncing words differently. So when the Sofronians came into contact with the long-lost Kulonians, the Kulonians kept saying "gluk meefruh boojoo" which meant 'hello, we want to buy some blankets'. So they could write it down once they figured out what it meant, same symbols as always: <hello><want><buy><blankets>. But the sounds were interesting and they wanted to do some stenography (different from steganography). So they invented that. "Gl" was the start of a word that meant 'fish' and "k" was the start of a word that meant 'sky' so they could write <fish><sky> and it represesnted the sounds 'gluk'. It was the most natural thing to just draw a circle around the symbols <fish><sky> to signal these are just pronunciation instructions.

If I understand right, Egyptian hieroglyphics worked like this - mostly ideographs, with some phonetics for foreign words, names mostly. But the phonetics were so handy that people just started using them more and more.

This leads us to the pronunciation of all these wierd names in Romans 16. The name Cenchrea for instance: the Greek texts show Κεγχρεαις. I'm guessing Paul's letter to the Romans actually had ΚΕΓΧΡΕΑΙΣ, because lower case (which the scholars call miniscules) came along later. One theory is that these people were writing on papyrus, which has a rough surface, lots of fibers; hard to make sweet little curves and stuff, easier to just pull the pen, can make a fairly straight line. So most of their letters were mostly straight lines. Once they got to understand how to get skins really smooth they could make their pens really swish around and make curved letters, which were sweeter looking and easier on the eye. Except that when I look at these old papyrus fragments with John 13:5 on 'em, I see curves but what do I know.

Anyway, if we take these symbols as pronunciation instructions, we have

Κ   k as in kangaroo
ε   eh as in epic (?)
γ   g as in google
χ   ch as in loch
ρ   r as in rover
ε   eh as in epic (?)
α   ah as in awesome
ι   ee as in peep
ς   s as in same

I reckon all these allocations are tentative. Take for instance the e... The Greeks colonized the shores all around the Mediterranean  and Mediterranean languages generally have 5 or 6 vowels: ah, ei, ee, oh, oo. Spanish has 6, altho you ask any Mexican kid how many vowels and he'll say "cinco". They have 5 letters to represent 6 vowels - ah, ei, eh, ee, oh, oo. The letter e does double duty. And my point is, most people don't even realize this. They use for instance the word "eres" which means 'thou art' and in that word you have two e's, pronounced differently - the first is eh, the 2nd is ei. Ha! So how do we know the Greeks didn't have similar funny business in their language?

But with the above allocations the name Cenchrea might be pronounced keg-chreh-ah-ees. By some wierd pathway the English translators came up with Cenchrea. There's a tradition that the gamma (γ) would be pronounced N in front of another consonant (ha! see? funny business), but how we know that I have no idea.

Some people love all these little quirks in languages but I hate 'em. I like Brigham Young's ideal: one sound for each symbol and one symbol for each sound, no exceptions, no changes allowed.

Whenever some genius like Brigham Young or King Mosiah sits down to straighten the system out, it lasts for about 40 years then it evolves away from the good solution because people fear to offend Queen Beulah and so they all pronounce their th's as f's because she could only say 'em that way.

<Grampa expound mode /off>

[Woody]

Regarding the possibility of Phoebe being a deacon, there's another caveat. My bishop's dad was in New Zealand on a mission right after the war, and he found a branch way off in some isolated place, where the branch prez had been valiantly maintaining things for several years, while most of the men were away to the war. He had the sister missionaries blessing the sacrament.

So this illustrates the possibility that Phoebe was ordained a deacon in the priesthood, but it wasn't right. In Joseph Smith's day, an African-American was ordained to the priesthood before the Prophet learned it was incorrect.

Edited January 14, 2017 by Woody

[Woody]

Then there's Junia, Romans 16:7. Female Apostle?

First, the word αποστολος in Greek manuscripts simply means 'one sent', ie. an emmisary, an ambassador, a deputy; ie. a missionary. Αποστολος is used for Jesus' Twelve, but also for various others, some of which can be shown to have very probably not been of that rank.

Timothy for example is called an apostle in 1Thes. 2:6 (see 1:1) but a brother and a διακονον in 3:2 (translated as brother and minister in the KJ) and just a brother in 2Cor. 1:1 (thought by most scholars to be much later than 1Thessalonians), so it seems more likely this is just a variety of expressions rather than Timothy's downward progress in callings.

Barnabas is called an apostle in Acts 14:14, but Clement of Alexandria names him as one of the Seventy, and Hippolytus' list of the 70 has two men named Barnabas, both bishops. It doesn't mention that either one of them became an Apostle, as it does for Matthias, who was inducted into the Twelve to replace Judas Iscariot.

Jesus' brother James is called an apostle in Galatians 1:19, but not in Hippolytus' list.

Paul calls himself an apostle but there's no indication he was one of the Twelve. In fact, there is no record of the Twelve ever calling another replacement as they did with Barnabas. In Which Church Is Right? Mark E. Peterson suggested that Paul was such a replacement, but all he could cite was a vacancy (Acts 12:2) and Paul being called and set apart as a missionary (Acts 13:1). Surely the disciples at Antioch didn't give the Quorum of the Twelve a new member, none of the others in the quorum even being present?!

Second, there's that phrase "of note among the apostles", Romans 16:7. Andronicaus and Junia were Paul's kin and fellow prisoners. There's no way to tell from the Greek grammar whether they were remarkable among the apostles, or just noticed by them; nor whether they were "of note among" the Twelve or just the missionaries in that area? Acts 16:2 has a similar statement about Timothy – the brethren of Lystria and Iconium remarked on him (or maybe it was actually one of Timothy's parents they noticed).

Junia being Paul's fellow prisoner says to me that most likely, Junia was among his missionary companions, but there's no way to determine this, or if Junia was simply also in the prison where Paul found himself on that occasion.

Third, it's kinda unlikely that Junia was a even a woman. Some ancient manuscripts of Romans 16 have the name (Ιουνίαν) with an acute accent ( / ) over the 2nd iota which is the female form of the name; some have instead a circumflex (^) over the alpha, which is the male form. Problem is, all of these manuscripts were written after about AD 900 – manuscripts written previous to that were in capital letters without accents. So all these accents are later insertions, by editors who weren't there. The difference is only a small mark anyway, easy for a copyist to mistake either way.

Latin translations added to the confusion, since the name is Roman and has various masculine/feminine nuances, none of which give us any information about the situation.

The words "remarkable", "kinsmen" and "fellowprisoners" are masculine, but the presence of masculine Andronicus mandates that, whether Junia be male or female.

There are two sources that might not derive from Romans and/or accent marks: Epiphanius (AD 350±) mentions this same Junias as a bishop in Syria with a masculine pronoun. And the Synaxarium, a group of books of lives of saints from around AD 1000, says that Junia the apostle was a man of the tribe of Judah.

Simple logic tells us that there was no remarkable member of the Twelve named Junia. Such a remarkable Apostle would be mentioned numerous times in the New Testament, with accompanying apocrypha, traditions, icons, and chapels named after him/her, but this is the one and only isolated mention.

We must also note that not only was Junia (notable among/noticed by) the (Apostles/missionaries), but Andronicus was too - and there's just as much record of Apostle Andronicus as there is of Apostle Junia, ie. zero.

 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Woody said:

So this illustrates the possibility that Phoebe was ordained a deacon in the priesthood, but it wasn't right. In Joseph Smith's day, an African-American was ordained to the priesthood before the Prophet learned it was incorrect.

You are mistaken that Joseph believed it was ever incorrect.

The Priesthood continued in the family line.  His son and grandson were ordained.

 

Edited January 14, 2017 by Calm