What messages should the Church portray to attract disaffected Christians?

[Foreigner]

21 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I often wonder how Peter, Paul, Brigham, Orson, Parley, Heber, Daniel, Willard, and the rest were able to make any converts at all.

Just think what marvelous work they could have done if they had had the internet and social media, Mormon celebrities and athletes, missionary splits, videos, sister missionaries, training centers - all the great things we have today.

Perhaps repentance is a harder sell nowadays.

Not sure.

In old times, there was power (and authority). Now there is authority (and ?power?).

I can remember an old missionary from Utah coming to us. A sheer savior, as every Utahns present themselves abroad. He tried great missionary campaign with internet, social media and other stupid ideas. I tried to suggest him that people expect rather healing. He heard about something like this happened a few generations ago...

 

[mfbukowski]

On 12/27/2016 at 0:30 PM, Foreigner said:

That may be good for philosophers, not for a faithful Christian, whatever scripture based on. With mortal man perspective the God does not change a bit. He teaches the same lesson all the times. The canon should be open not to wait for changing God, but because He is waiting for people, when they are ready to get something more.

All this can have practical consequences. There was a pastor who testified that all his prayers have been answered. He passed teaching like this: If your prayer is not answered - change yourself. Because then something has to be changed. And God does not change. So that is for you.

That is not a Mormon attitude, we believe that doctrines change. I don't care about pastors. I have been one.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

That is not a Mormon attitude, we believe that doctrines change.

Speak for yourself.

[mfbukowski]

23 hours ago, Foreigner said:

Given revelations should be obeyed and understood without additions.

Not according to Moroni 10 :4, 5.

[mfbukowski]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Speak for yourself.

Lol. I shall. Polygamy. Blacks and priesthood. Adam God. The sacrament. Proc. On Family. McConkie ism. Word of wisdom. The restoration itself.

Open canon.

Now you will reply with semantics.

[JLHPROF]

Just now, mfbukowski said:

Lol. I shall. Polygamy. Blacks and priesthood. Adam God. The sacrament. Proc. On Family. McConkie ism. Word of wisdom. The restoration itself.

Open canon.

Now you will reply with semantics.

Nah.  Just wanted to remind you that not all Mormons believe that God changes or his doctrines.  Just because the Church changes them doesn't mean God changed them.

[mfbukowski]

11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Speak for yourself.

And so now we are Protestants? A bible a bible, we have a bible?

[mfbukowski]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

Nah.  Just wanted to remind you that not all Mormons believe that God changes or his doctrines.  Just because the Church changes them doesn't mean God changed them.

Ah, so now you are the prophet if your own church?

[mfbukowski]

And who cares what some Mormons believe?

[JLHPROF]

Just now, mfbukowski said:

And so now we are Protestants? A bible a bible, we have a bible?

No.  Just scriptorians.

Eccl 3: 14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
Mormon 9:7 And again I speak unto you who deny the revelations of God, and say that they are done away, that there are no revelations, nor prophecies, nor gifts, nor healing, nor speaking with tongues, and the interpretation of tongues;
8 Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them.
9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

God may reveal more.  But he doesn't change.
He may reveal to Joseph Smith that he has a physical body.  He may later reveal that he is a resurrected being who was once mortal and became a God.  He may later reveal to Brigham that he is that same being called Adam (which of course is rejected today).

God can reveal more.  But he cannot say today that baptism is needed and tomorrow that there is no baptism needed.
"Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles." - Joseph Smith
 

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

No.  Just scriptorians.

Eccl 3: 14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
Mormon 9:7 And again I speak unto you who deny the revelations of God, and say that they are done away, that there are no revelations, nor prophecies, nor gifts, nor healing, nor speaking with tongues, and the interpretation of tongues;
8 Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them.
9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

God may reveal more.  But he doesn't change.
He may reveal to Joseph Smith that he has a physical body.  He may later reveal that he is a resurrected being who was once mortal and became a God.  He may later reveal to Brigham that he is that same being called Adam (which of course is rejected today).

God can reveal more.  But he cannot say today that baptism is needed and tomorrow that there is no baptism needed.
"Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles." - Joseph Smith
 

We were not talking about ordinances.

Read 2 Nephi 29: 9 

[mfbukowski]

And the endowment never changes either, just annually it seems. Semantics.

So I guess prophets serve no purpose, Alma 32 and Moroni 10 and 1st James are wrong, along with DC 93.

My what a mess!

Edited December 29, 2016 by mfbukowski

[JLHPROF]

52 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And the endowment never changes either, just annually it seems. Semantics.

So I guess prophets serve no purpose, Alma 32 and Moroni 10 and 1st James are wrong, along with DC 93.

My what a mess!

Oh, the endowment has absolutely been changed.
The Church has admirably fulfilled the prophecy in Isaiah 24:5 and ignored the teachings of Joseph Smith I quoted from the current Church manuals.
Fortunately God will correct all the missteps of this final dispensation, else the earth would be destroyed.

[mfbukowski]

43 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Oh, the endowment has absolutely been changed.
The Church has admirably fulfilled the prophecy in Isaiah 24:5 and ignored the teachings of Joseph Smith I quoted from the current Church manuals.
Fortunately God will correct all the missteps of this final dispensation, else the earth would be destroyed.

wow. i would rather worry about my own missteps than worry about the church's problems.  my God does not destroy planets because some of its inhabitants disagree about doctrine

but i am one of those filthy relativists who do not even use capital letters just to make a point. that makes me one who violates the eternal truth of social conventions which last as long as we want them to,

Edited December 29, 2016 by mfbukowski

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

wow. i would rather worry about my own missteps than worry about the church's problems

Oh believe me, I worry about mine more than the Church's.
As I said, God has already said he would correct the Church's errors eventually.
We get 1000 years to complete and correct any erroneous ordinances.  It's just a shame we couldn't have left the restored ordinances alone.

Me on the other hand, I don't know if 1000 years would be long enough to correct all my missteps.

[mfbukowski]

28 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Oh believe me, I worry about mine more than the Church's.
As I said, God has already said he would correct the Church's errors eventually.
We get 1000 years to complete and correct any erroneous ordinances.  It's just a shame we couldn't have left the restored ordinances alone.

Me on the other hand, I don't know if 1000 years would be long enough to correct all my missteps.

I was too hard on you, I apologize

Never post hangry

 

 

Edited December 29, 2016 by mfbukowski

[Foreigner]

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That is not a Mormon attitude, we believe that doctrines change. I don't care about pastors. I have been one.

I don't care about Mormons. I'm a Christian.

My God never changes.

My doctrine never changes.

It is defined here : 3 Nefi 11:31-40

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.

 32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

 33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

 34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

 35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

 36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

 37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.

 38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

 39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

 40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Foreigner said:

I don't care about Mormons. I'm a Christian.

My God never changes.

My doctrine never changes.

It is defined here : 3 Nefi 11:31-40

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.

 32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

 33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

 34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

 35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

 36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

 37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.

 38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

 39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

 40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

 

Uh ,       ok......

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Foreigner said:

I don't care about Mormons. I'm a Christian.

True Christians ARE Mormons.
That is to say, they accept ALL that Christ ever taught, did, and required of us and allow for the possibility that he will yet reveal or require even more.
We follow the living Christ.

[Foreigner]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

True Christians ARE Mormons.
That is to say, they accept ALL that Christ ever taught, did, and required of us and allow for the possibility that he will yet reveal or require even more.
We follow the living Christ.

Someone who follows Christ is a Christian. It is not an obscure Biblical teaching but directly taken from BoM (Alma 46:15):

15 And those who did belong to the church were faithful; yea, all those who were true believers in Christ took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians as they were called, because of their belief in Christ who should come.

16 And therefore, at this time, Moroni prayed that the cause of the Christians, and the freedom of the land might be favored.

Moroni was successful because he prayed for Christians. If you allow Evangelicals to steal the name, they also will take blessings.

I do not accuse Mormons. BoM does (3 Nephi 27:7-8):

7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.

8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

I repeat only that: "Mormons do not believe the Book of Mormon, nor understand it."

Guess what second name Jesus had in mind when saying: "if it be called in the name of a man" ?

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, Foreigner said:

Someone who follows Christ is a Christian. It is not an obscure Biblical teaching but directly taken from BoM (Alma 46:15):

15 And those who did belong to the church were faithful; yea, all those who were true believers in Christ took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians as they were called, because of their belief in Christ who should come.

16 And therefore, at this time, Moroni prayed that the cause of the Christians, and the freedom of the land might be favored.

Moroni was successful because he prayed for Christians. If you allow Evangelicals to steal the name, they also will take blessings.

I do not accuse Mormons. BoM does (3 Nephi 27:7-8):

7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.

8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

I repeat only that: "Mormons do not believe the Book of Mormon, nor understand it."

Guess what second name Jesus had in mind when saying: "if it be called in the name of a man" ?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Yep.

[RevTestament]

MFB and JHLProf - you are some of the posters and contributors I respect most on this board although I disagree with you from time to time. Foreigner, although you are new to the board, I highly respect your desire to live according to the scriptures. Having been the OP, I hope that we can be a guiding force for this thread and the betterment of our Savior's church, and put aside petty differences. Thank you for your contributions to the thread, and I look forward to more from each of you.

[JLHPROF]

44 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

MFB and JHLProf - you are some of the posters and contributors I respect most on this board although I disagree with you from time to time. Foreigner, although you are new to the board, I highly respect your desire to live according to the scriptures. Having been the OP, I hope that we can be a guiding force for this thread and the betterment of our Savior's church, and put aside petty differences. Thank you for your contributions to the thread, and I look forward to more from each of you.

Just FYI - I don't think Foreigner is new.  Looks like he joined in 2009 (myself I joined in 2012).
But I appreciate your kind words.

[Foreigner]

18 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Just FYI - I don't think Foreigner is new.  Looks like he joined in 2009 (myself I joined in 2012).
But I appreciate your kind words.

Really. And I think that I have examined this board long before joining. Not sure when it was. I am not a native speaker, so it is difficult to participate.

And I have examined Mormonism since I was young. That was really long ago! In those times, before Internet era, things appeared simpler.

[RevTestament]

On 12/31/2016 at 11:05 AM, Foreigner said:

Really. And I think that I have examined this board long before joining. Not sure when it was. I am not a native speaker, so it is difficult to participate.

And I have examined Mormonism since I was young. That was really long ago! In those times, before Internet era, things appeared simpler.

I hope I didn't offend you. I just was referencing the fact that you don't post much.... which tends to paint you as a "newcomer." Perhaps, you visit the boards frequently... Whatever the case, I have enjoyed the contributions you have made, and I hope you stay around.