Vance Posted November 1, 2016 Posted November 1, 2016 19 hours ago, Five Solas said: The Incarnation (taken from John 1:14) isn't spoken much of in Mormonism, rodheadlee (do a search on lds.org and yes, you'll find a few odd scraps, dated). --Erik LOL!! You ignorance of things Mormon is astounding. True we don't use the word "incarnation" but then again, neither does the Bible. · 2 Ne. 2:4 And thou hast beheld in thy youth his glory; wherefore, thou art blessed even as they unto whom he shall minister in the flesh; for the Spirit is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. And the way is prepared from the fall of man, and salvation is free. · 2 Ne. 6:9 Nevertheless, the Lord has shown unto me that they should return again. And he also has shown unto me that the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, should manifest himself unto them in the flesh; and after he should manifest himself they should scourge him and crucify him, according to the words of the angel who spake it unto me. · 2 Ne. 9:5 Yea, I know that ye know that in the body he shall show himself unto those at Jerusalem, from whence we came; for it is expedient that it should be among them; for it behooveth the great Creator that he suffereth himself to become subject unto man in the flesh, and die for all men, that all men might become subject unto him. · 2 Ne. 25:12 But, behold, they shall have wars, and rumors of wars; and when the day cometh that the Only Begotten of the Father, yea, even the Father of heaven and of earth, shall manifest himself unto them in the flesh, behold, they will reject him, because of their iniquities, and the hardness of their hearts, and the stiffness of their necks. · 2 Ne. 32:6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do. · Jacob 4:11 Wherefore, beloved brethren, be reconciled unto him through the atonement of Christ, his Only Begotten Son, and ye may obtain a resurrection, according to the power of the resurrection which is in Christ, and be presented as the first-fruits of Christ unto God, having faith, and obtained a good hope of glory in him before he manifesteth himself in the flesh. · Enos 1:8 And he said unto me: Because of thy faith in Christ, whom thou hast never before heard nor seen. And many years pass away before he shall manifest himself in the flesh; wherefore, go to, thy faith hath made thee whole. · Ether 3:16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh. • • • 21 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt not suffer these things which ye have seen and heard to go forth unto the world, until the time cometh that I shall glorify my name in the flesh; wherefore, ye shall treasure up the things which ye have seen and heard, and show it to no man. · D&C 18:11 For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him. · D&C 20:1 The rise of the Church of Christ in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly organized and established agreeable to the laws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April— • • • 26 Not only those who believed after he came in the meridian of time, in the flesh, but all those from the beginning, even as many as were before he came, who believed in the words of the holy prophets, who spake as they were inspired by the gift of the Holy Ghost, who truly testified of him in all things, should have eternal life, · D&C 45:16 And I will show it plainly as I showed it unto my disciples as I stood before them in the flesh, and spake unto them, saying: As ye have asked of me concerning the signs of my coming, in the day when I shall come in my glory in the clouds of heaven, to fulfil the promises that I have made unto your fathers, · D&C 93:11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us. · Moses 7:47 And behold, Enoch saw the day of the coming of the Son of Man, even in the flesh; and his soul rejoiced, saying: The Righteous is lifted up, and the Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world; and through faith I am in the bosom of the Father, and behold, Zion is with me. • • • 54 And it came to pass that Enoch cried unto the Lord, saying: When the Son of Man cometh in the flesh, shall the earth rest? I pray thee, show me these things. 3
Vance Posted November 1, 2016 Posted November 1, 2016 1 Ne. 10: 4 (1 Ne. 19: 8; 2 Ne. 25: 19) six hundred years . . . God raise up among the Jews even a Messiah. 1 Ne. 11: 18 mother of the Son of God. 2 Ne. 26: 3 signs given . . . of his birth. Alma 7: 10 he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem. Hel. 14: 4 sign . . . before he is born. 3 Ne. 1: 19 day that the Lord should be born. D&C 20: 1 since the coming of our Lord . . . in the flesh. D&C 76: 41 he came into the world, even Jesus. D&C 93: 4 I . . . made flesh my tabernacle. Moses 5: 57 (Moses 6: 57-62) Son . . . should come in the meridian of time. 2
Vance Posted November 1, 2016 Posted November 1, 2016 https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/first-presidency-christmas-devotionals?lang=eng 1
rodheadlee Posted November 1, 2016 Posted November 1, 2016 20 hours ago, Five Solas said: The Incarnation (taken from John 1:14) isn't spoken much of in Mormonism, rodheadlee (do a search on lds.org and yes, you'll find a few odd scraps, dated). "So what is the problem?"--you'll continue to insist. Why does it matter if Jesus is the second member of the Trinity, God come into human history as a man (the Incarnation), as Christians believe? Or if he's a deity who "treads in the tracks of his father and inherits what God did before..." as Joseph Smith claimed. Or for that matter, if Jesus is your neighbor down the street who runs a lawn care business? Let's not be making offenders for a word. Book of Mormon? King Follett? New Testament? Mitt Romney's foibles with lawn care? There's no need for a fuss--you just gotta believe in a Jesus. That's what the spirits say... ;0) --Erik I'm not sure what you are getting at with the Mitt Romney, Hey-Sus/ lawn business thing but the Son does tread in the tracks of His Father John 5;19 explains. I hope you understand the ramifications of these 2 verses. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he aseeth the bFather do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 4
danielwoods Posted November 1, 2016 Posted November 1, 2016 3 hours ago, Vance said: So God has legs ergo a body. Got it. Very likely a pre-incarnate Jesus, but that's just my opinion.
mfbukowski Posted November 1, 2016 Author Posted November 1, 2016 17 hours ago, danielwoods said: Very likely a pre-incarnate Jesus, but that's just my opinion. Pre-incarnate Jesus had a "spirit body"? 1
danielwoods Posted November 1, 2016 Posted November 1, 2016 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Pre-incarnate Jesus had a "spirit body"? Call it what you will. There are a number of accounts where God is described as "walking" or being there with that person. And that is the role that Jesus plays after his resurrection, so it makes sense to me that a pre-incarnate Jesus would do the same.
Vance Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 21 hours ago, danielwoods said: Very likely a pre-incarnate Jesus, but that's just my opinion. What about the trinity? Doesn't it mean that all three were there?
mfbukowski Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 2 hours ago, danielwoods said: Call it what you will. There are a number of accounts where God is described as "walking" or being there with that person. And that is the role that Jesus plays after his resurrection, so it makes sense to me that a pre-incarnate Jesus would do the same. Interesting! And do you believe that He still has a "body" in the same sense as he did "pre-incarnate"?
danielwoods Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 14 hours ago, Vance said: What about the trinity? Doesn't it mean that all three were there? Indeed, but not all are seen. Jesus is the "Image of the unseen God..."
danielwoods Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 13 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Interesting! And do you believe that He still has a "body" in the same sense as he did "pre-incarnate"? Not sure. There's really not enough information to make this determination. It appears they both have similar characteristics. But, now we say that Jesus has a resurrection body. Could be the same for all practical purposes.
Gray Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 On 10/30/2016 at 11:23 PM, Five Solas said: The Incarnation (taken from John 1:14) isn't spoken much of in Mormonism, rodheadlee (do a search on lds.org and yes, you'll find a few odd scraps, dated). "So what is the problem?"--you'll continue to insist. Why does it matter if Jesus is the second member of the Trinity, God come into human history as a man (the Incarnation), as Christians believe? Or if he's a deity who "treads in the tracks of his father and inherits what God did before..." as Joseph Smith claimed. Or for that matter, if Jesus is your neighbor down the street who runs a lawn care business? Let's not be making offenders for a word. Book of Mormon? King Follett? New Testament? Mitt Romney's foibles with lawn care? There's no need for a fuss--you just gotta believe in a Jesus. That's what the spirits say... ;0) --Erik Mormonism generally accepts the premise of John 1 - that is, that Jesus was God before his incarnation. However, lest we forget, the synoptics teach that Jesus was adopted as the son of God, at various points in his mortal life, depending on which gospel you're talking about.
mfbukowski Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 1 hour ago, danielwoods said: Not sure. There's really not enough information to make this determination. It appears they both have similar characteristics. But, now we say that Jesus has a resurrection body. Could be the same for all practical purposes. This then seems also to be one of the vague EV doctrines that we LDS clarify. We keep confirming the thesis found in the OP 2
danielwoods Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: This then seems also to be one of the vague EV doctrines that we LDS clarify. We keep confirming the thesis found in the OP The claim that the LDS have clarified anything is false on the face of it, unless one is claiming that their faith alone is the verification. In other words only those who believe and follow LDS teachings would make such a claim.
bluebell Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 1 hour ago, danielwoods said: The claim that the LDS have clarified anything is false on the face of it, unless one is claiming that their faith alone is the verification. In other words only those who believe and follow LDS teachings would make such a claim. MB is saying that LDS doctrine clarifies the doctrine of the resurrection and whether or not Jesus still has His resurrected body. In your belief, what is the purpose of Jesus's (and our eventual) resurrection? 2
danielwoods Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 2 hours ago, bluebell said: MB is saying that LDS doctrine clarifies the doctrine of the resurrection and whether or not Jesus still has His resurrected body. In your belief, what is the purpose of Jesus's (and our eventual) resurrection? I understand that is what he is claiming. Purpose for resurrection is to fulfill God's ultimate plan. Share his life/love/existence with us.
mfbukowski Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 4 hours ago, danielwoods said: The claim that the LDS have clarified anything is false on the face of it, unless one is claiming that their faith alone is the verification. In other words only those who believe and follow LDS teachings would make such a claim. I don't understand your point. "Their faith alone is the verification"? And your faith is the only verification also. What is the point? You seemed confused about 1-the pre-existence of Christ AND 2-whether or not Jesus still has a resurrected body, though you believe both points We clarify both points. What is there to not understand? The issue raised in the OP is that LDS doctrine clarifies commonly held Evangelical beliefs which are confused and not clear in Evangelicalism. These are perfect examples. And yes of course only LDS would believe that we clarify these doctrines. That is not under dispute. No Evangelical is going to say "Gee thanks- I never knew that" to LDS doctrine. That is not the point. 3
mfbukowski Posted November 2, 2016 Author Posted November 2, 2016 (edited) 20 minutes ago, danielwoods said: I understand that is what he is claiming. Purpose for resurrection is to fulfill God's ultimate plan. Share his life/love/existence with us. What does sharing love have to do with having a body? Does that mean our Father does not love us because he does not have a body ? (according to most Evangelicals, i would imagine) Or does that mean that "sharing his ...existence with us" means he HAS a body as well? I am just trying to understand what you believe- it is very unclear to me. I think that our clarity is a strength in these areas, so I would like to understand how your view is more clear, but I do not understand your point. Edited November 2, 2016 by mfbukowski 3
bluebell Posted November 2, 2016 Posted November 2, 2016 33 minutes ago, danielwoods said: I understand that is what he is claiming. Purpose for resurrection is to fulfill God's ultimate plan. Share his life/love/existence with us. Why is Christ's resurrection needed to fulfill God's ultimate plan for us? How does it share His life/love/existence with us? 3
danielwoods Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 6 hours ago, mfbukowski said: I don't understand your point. "Their faith alone is the verification"? And your faith is the only verification also. What is the point? You seemed confused about 1-the pre-existence of Christ AND 2-whether or not Jesus still has a resurrected body, though you believe both points We clarify both points. What is there to not understand? The issue raised in the OP is that LDS doctrine clarifies commonly held Evangelical beliefs which are confused and not clear in Evangelicalism. These are perfect examples. And yes of course only LDS would believe that we clarify these doctrines. That is not under dispute. No Evangelical is going to say "Gee thanks- I never knew that" to LDS doctrine. That is not the point. Right, so your claim in the OP is only true if you're LDS. For everyone else it's false. Evangelicals aren't confused. That is your opinion. Those who aren't interested in studying or ignorant for what ever reason, they may be confused (even if they claim to be EV). But, that's not the problem of the doctrine. One could say the same about any topic.
danielwoods Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 7 hours ago, mfbukowski said: What does sharing love have to do with having a body? Does that mean our Father does not love us because he does not have a body ? (according to most Evangelicals, i would imagine) Or does that mean that "sharing his ...existence with us" means he HAS a body as well? I am just trying to understand what you believe- it is very unclear to me. I think that our clarity is a strength in these areas, so I would like to understand how your view is more clear, but I do not understand your point. Clarity is only a strength if it's true. What does sharing love have to do with having a body? I was responding to a question about resurrection, which necessarily involves a body.
danielwoods Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 6 hours ago, bluebell said: Why is Christ's resurrection needed to fulfill God's ultimate plan for us? How does it share His life/love/existence with us? Christ's resurrection demonstrates his power over the greatest power we know - death, and this gives us a very tangible reason to hope. How does resurrection share his life/love/existence with us? Simple. Without it we couldn't stand in his presence. We shall be changed (resurrected).
Five Solas Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 On 10/31/2016 at 6:23 PM, rodheadlee said: I'm not sure what you are getting at with the Mitt Romney, Hey-Sus/ lawn business thing but the Son does tread in the tracks of His Father John 5;19 explains. I hope you understand the ramifications of these 2 verses. 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he aseeth the bFather do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. Well, I certainly don't understand those verses the way you appear to understand them (i.e., through the lens of Joseph Smith's King Follett Discourse with Smith's notion of treading, progressing gods). But I will concede my previous illustration, intended to be humorous while making a point (i.e., it matters who you think Jesus is), fell flat. --Erik
bluebell Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 10 hours ago, danielwoods said: Christ's resurrection demonstrates his power over the greatest power we know - death, and this gives us a very tangible reason to hope. How does resurrection share his life/love/existence with us? Simple. Without it we couldn't stand in his presence. We shall be changed (resurrected). But if God does not need a physical resurrected body to stand in the presence of Christ and share in His life/love/existence, why do we need one? 1
danielwoods Posted November 3, 2016 Posted November 3, 2016 47 minutes ago, bluebell said: But if God does not need a physical resurrected body to stand in the presence of Christ and share in His life/love/existence, why do we need one? You're asking a hypothetical question which leads to speculation. God decided to design our physical world in such a way that we have a physical body. Did he have to do it this way? Of course not. If he did it some other way we'd be asking the opposite hypothetical question, couldn't God have given everyone a physical body?
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