Deseret Book publishes book about seer stones, folk magic, and Mormon theology

[mapman]

Deseret Book and BYU's Religious Studies Center just published a new book by Michael Hubbard Mackay and Nicholas J. Frederick entitled Joseph Smith's Seer Stones. I saw it being advertised on BYU campus for education week. I admit that I was a little skeptical about a book on seer stones published by Deseret Book, thinking it might steer clear of controversial issues and not make any real findings or strong arguments. Boy, was I wrong. I bought the book, and read the entire thing today, and found it to be both entertaining and enlightening. While I could quibble with a few things, on the whole I thought it was a well-written book, with logical arguments supported by evidence, and that explained different points of view on certain issues like Joseph Smith’s involvement with the occult, translation methods, and spiritual significance of seer stones, including unorthodox-but-faithful points of view and non-Mormon or critical points of view. It is written with LDS in mind, but doesn’t shy away from quoting anti-Mormons and explaining the reasons they believed certain things about LDS history.

You can see the table of contents here: https://rsc.byu.edu/recent-books/joseph-smiths-seer-stones. The forward, written by Mark Ashurst-McGee, is an entertaining account of his attempts to get the church to photograph the brown seer stone, and his opinion that the authors are doing legitimate and important work in this book. Essentially what the book covers is the cultural context of seer stones, folk magic/occult, and treasure digging that Joseph Smith grew up in; descriptions and provenance of JS’s seer stones as far as we know; an attempt to trace where all the seer stones went after they left his hands; a description of the different theories on how the seer stones worked in doing translations; a more theological section on the role that seer stones play in the Book of Mormon and JS’s teachings; and a few appendixes that dig a little deeper into historical questions like the dates that Joseph Smith got his seer stones and the use of seer stones by LDS through the end of the 19^th century. A lot of the book is summarizing different historians’ work and arguments (this book cites Quinn’s Magical Worldview and Ashurst-McGee’s Pathway to Prophethood a lot, like dozens of times for each). It does make its own arguments as well, its main additions being documenting the transmission of the seer stones after JS and exploring seer stones as a theological concept.

The book is pretty easy to read, it is 180 pages long not counting the bibliography at the end (which pretty comprehensively reproduces all the primary sources on the seer stones and is an additional 52 pages), and is written in language that pretty much any LDS or other reader could pick up and follow. It has a lot of charts and illustrations, which I thought was nice, including new paintings by Anthony Sweat and others of the translation, the white seer stone, and Joseph treasure digging. Even though it is easy to read, that doesn’t mean that it isn’t intellectually challenging. Like all good books, it made me reconsider things that I believe. For example, its arguments about the seer stones being an important part of JS’s teachings through to the end of his life made me questions some assumptions I held about that. I kind of wish that the book was longer so that it could go deeper into the sources and try to come up with answers to questions that they raise, but it at least serves well to start a conversation about seer stones among LDS that aren’t going to be reading thick history tomes.

I would definitely recommend this book, and I am seriously impressed that Deseret Book would publish it. I think it could definitely raise awareness among members of the Church of some of these previously obscured historical issues.

Edited August 21, 2016 by mapman

[mapman]

Here’s a few passages from the book that stood out to me. They give a pretty good idea of the kinds of things the book deals with:

“Joseph Smith’s seer stones are strange to us in modern Western culture; and they are unfamiliar because we have downplayed them in our history. Now that we are in the age of the Internet, we can no longer avoid them. We have to come to terms with them.” (xii, from Mark Ashurts-McGee’s foreward)

“However, not every Mormon was as excited as I [about the photo of the seer stone in the Ensign]. Without their own previous inoculation… the announcement may have felt strange to some members. They might have wondered why they had never heard of the seer stone and why the Church had not informed them earlier that it possessed the item.” (xvii)

“Joseph Smith had a green thumb when it came to religion… Joseph’s green thumb enabled him to cultivate his religious environment, growing it into a unique sacred institution that pierced the heavens. He demonstrated the ability to transform Christians into Saints, Masonic ritual into a celestial rite of passage, the biblical text into modern scripture, and even the earth into heaven itself.” (1-2)

“Despite Joseph’s own later reticence to ascribe supernatural forces to his treasure seeking, he did maintain a connection with the sacred nature of the land. The very land where Joseph found his seer stones held divine providence in the minds of Americans, and Joseph’s claim that the stones came from Native Americans harmonized with a greater public perception of an underlying sacred Native American mythos surrounding the lands in which they now lived. Joseph bound together the ideas of sacred land, ancient Native American artifacts, and digging for money with seer stones… The idea of America as a sacred place was not foreign to Americans, who believed ‘manifest destiny’ was exhibited through the ancient inhabitants, who were considered by many to be Israelites.” (15-16)

“It is important to remember that Joseph was influenced by a religious awakening and restorationism along with folk magic and money digging… Even after the Church was organized in 1830, the overlap of religious and occult experiences was apparent in Joseph Smith’s life.” (20)

“In the case of Joseph Smith’s seer stones and his early involvement in occult practices like money digging, some Latter-day Saints have seen an exploration of these things as an affront on Mormonism and outside the institutional boundaries established by the Church. While this reaction might seem intuitively right given our modern cultural distrust of the occult and preference for what we interpret as the appropriately religious, the dichotomy between Joseph Smith’s world in the 1820s and current Church practices drives the believer away from understanding Joseph in his own religious environment. Taking Joseph’s experiences seriously in their entirety can lead to a wealth of knowledge.” (21)

“More liberal interpretations of the Book of Mormon translation process sought to find room for increased volition on the part of Joseph Smith. The most extreme examples insist that a different author—someone like Solomon Spaulding, Oliver Cowdery, or Sidney Rigdon—wrote the Book of Mormon… Many of those who espouse the environmental causation and view Joseph Smith as the actual source for the text do demonstrate a certain admiration for the complexity and elaborate nature of the Book of Mormon… Some Mormon scholars have reached a middle ground and want to allow for both divine inspiration and Joseph’s own active role in the final English text.” (46-47)

“If Gardner is right [that Mosiah’s translation of Coriantumr’s record has additions that weren’t actually on the record], then this is evidence of the Book of Mormon supplying a very important example: a seer who is brought a relic and translates the language on the relic not in a literal fashion, but in a way that allows for additional , more important information to be relayed from a divine source. If we view Joseph Smith’s translation projects through this lens, it becomes much easier to understand why the text of the Book of Mormon may not be a perfectly literal translation of characters on the plates, or why nineteenth-century elements could be present in the Book of Mormon.” (117)

“Though Smith’s neighbors could only understand his actions in the context of money digging and folk magic, Mormon theology rejects the idea that Joseph Smith’s seer stones were simply cultural artifacts… Even if Joseph found his stones with Sally and Willard Chase, [Joseph Smith] believed that God placed them there for his discovery… [The Book of Mormon and other revelations] transformed local folklore in a new kind of religious epistemology.” (136)

[Nevo]

Okay, but did he sacrifice a sheep?

Actually, the book sounds really interesting. Thanks for the excerpts. I notice that the authors don't seem to have a problem with the word "occult," which FairMormon considers "prejudicial, loaded terminology." It's nice to see the Church getting less defensive about these things.  

Edited August 21, 2016 by Nevo

[mapman]

11 minutes ago, Nevo said:

Okay, but did he sacrifice a sheep?

Actually, the book sounds really interesting. Thanks for the excerpts. I notice that the authors don't seem to have a problem with the word "occult," which FairMormon considers "prejudicial, loaded terminology." It's nice to see the Church getting less defensive about these things.  

Haha, yeah they don't mention anything about sacrificing sheep. They talk about "magic" and the "occult" being influences on Joseph Smith several times throughout the book, but they don't really go into what that means much more than just the fact that treasure digging had a supernatural component to it.

Edited August 21, 2016 by mapman

[JLHPROF]

30 minutes ago, Nevo said:

Okay, but did he sacrifice a sheep?

Actually, the book sounds really interesting. Thanks for the excerpts. I notice that the authors don't seem to have a problem with the word "occult," which FairMormon considers "prejudicial, loaded terminology." It's nice to see the Church getting less defensive about these things.  

I thought it was a dog.

Personally I have zero issue if Joseph practiced the folk magic of his era before being called to restore the priesthood keys and ordinances.
If he was still practicing it after 1829 that could be an issue MAYBE.  And even then, do you know people who knock wood for luck or throw a pinch of salt over their shoulder or won't walk under a ladder.  We all have old occult traditions in our lives.  Any brides out there wearing something old, new, borrowed and blue and avoiding their grooms before the wedding.

Traditions are everywhere.  If Joseph as a young man practiced folk magic so what.  It probably gave him a more open mind that the uptight preachers of the day and allowed him to accept visions and visitations that much of traditional Christianity claimed ended.

[Robert F. Smith]

John Walker, “The Sorcerer’s Apprentice: Joseph Smith and Magic,” unpublished April 1984 college history class paper, p. 11, sacrifice of a dog named Tray; in another dig a black cat was sacrificed, in Stephen Greene, “Money Diggers,” Vermont Life, Autumn 1969, 51; and in another a lamb was sacrificed, in Franklin B. Hough, A History of Jefferson County, New York (1854), 158; Zim Allen of Cayuga County had a seer-stone, which he would put into his hat to shade its brightness when in use, in Dorothy Dengler, “Tales of Buried Treasure in Rochester,” New York Folklore Quarterly, II/3 [Aug 1946], n. 5; and Deacon Bascom had a thrice repeated dream of treasure, which he searched for with his stone (Sarah J. Hale, Traits of American Life [1835], 104ff).

[Robert F. Smith]

Compare Mayan zaztun, "clear-stone (rock crystal, geode)," which may have been derived from a possible original Jaredite use of theoretical Sumerian *zaZA.TUN, "stone-of-womb (belly; container); geode," by elision or syncope of medial -a-.  Naturally, the borrowing would have been by the Mayans via the Olmecs (Jaredites).  The zaztun was typically placed in balche (mead) to "quicken" it, and could then be used to divine the the future, the cause of an illness or other problem, and even to work a cure.   This also brings to mind the fabled Mayan giron-gagal or pizom-gagal as a kind of New World stone compass (or liahona) used by the ancestors of the Quiche Maya in their major migration from the East.    Cf. Walter Krickeberg, "Mesoamerica," in Krickeberg, Trimborn, Mueller, and Zerries, Pre-Columbian American Religions (1968), 75; see the photo and description of a zaztun in National Geographic, 148/6 (Dec 1975):746-747; Milton R. Hunter, Archeology and the Book of Mormon, 40-41, citing the Popol Vuh and Title of the Lords of Totonicapan.

[PeterPear]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Compare Mayan zaztun, "clear-stone (rock crystal, geode)," which may have been derived from a possible original Jaredite use of theoretical Sumerian *zaZA.TUN, "stone-of-womb (belly; container); geode," by elision or syncope of medial -a-.  Naturally, the borrowing would have been by the Mayans via the Olmecs (Jaredites).  The zaztun was typically placed in balche (mead) to "quicken" it, and could then be used to divine the the future, the cause of an illness or other problem, and even to work a cure.   This also brings to mind the fabled Mayan giron-gagal or pizom-gagal as a kind of New World stone compass (or liahona) used by the ancestors of the Quiche Maya in their major migration from the East.    Cf. Walter Krickeberg, "Mesoamerica," in Krickeberg, Trimborn, Mueller, and Zerries, Pre-Columbian American Religions (1968), 75; see the photo and description of a zaztun in National Geographic, 148/6 (Dec 1975):746-747; Milton R. Hunter, Archeology and the Book of Mormon, 40-41, citing the Popol Vuh and Title of the Lords of Totonicapan.

There you go with the Maya nonsense again. Didn't you get the memo?

An Open Letter to Dr. Michael Coe

There is too much gratuitous “Mayanization” going on throughout this entire discussion. The text’s “Nephites” were not Maya in all probability; the “Lamanites” may have been in part.

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/an-open-letter-to-dr-michael-coe/

 

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, PeterPear said:

There you go with the Maya nonsense again. Didn't you get the memo?

An Open Letter to Dr. Michael Coe

There is too much gratuitous “Mayanization” going on throughout this entire discussion. The text’s “Nephites” were not Maya in all probability; the “Lamanites” may have been in part.

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/an-open-letter-to-dr-michael-coe/

Correct, Pete.  John Sorenson is correct, and I make that same point myself quite often.

However, you will note that I am discussing a general Mesoamerican phenomenon which likely began with the Olmec (Jaredites) and continued with all the cultures of Mesoamerica.  I thought that you might be interested in the same stone thing taking place anciently  in generic Book of Mormon country.  Indeed, I provided a citation in National Geographic magazine which has a photo of just such a stone.  Did you notice that?

[mapman]

Let's try not to get this thread derailed into a Book of Mormon geography debate.

[hope_for_things]

Thanks for this post, I'm intrigued by what I've heard about the new book even more now after what you've explained.  

Did the authors talk about how they view the use of the seer stone from a religious perspective?  For example, why would God prepare the Urim and Thummim for the translation of the BoM, only to have Joseph not use it for the most part?  

Or why would Joseph have used the stones to try and find buried treasure, never find any of the treasure, and then later use this same stone potentially to find the BoM location, his wife, and then translate the plates? 

I'm curious if they talk about some of the critiques out there that are troubling to some people about the seer stones, and how they reconcile these issues.  Did they provide any interesting new ways of looking at things? 

 

[theplains]

On 20/08/2016 at 11:57 PM, JLHPROF said:

Personally I have zero issue if Joseph practiced the folk magic of his era before being called to restore the priesthood keys and ordinances.
If he was still practicing it after 1829 that could be an issue MAYBE.  

Regarding the before period ... the June 1976 Ensign article "A Promised Land" says, "[Joseph] grew up
toward adolescence just like the new land. He fitted it. He was young, clean, unspoiled—a lad without a
past, kneeling in a grove.".   Why would the church's education commissioner teach Joseph was unspoiled
when he involved himself with folk magic (the occult)?

Regarding the after period ... why do you feel being involved in occult practices after 1829 would be
considered a 'maybe' issue?

Thanks,
Jim

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

 Why would the church's education commissioner teach Joseph was unspoiled
when he involved himself with folk magic (the occult)?

Why wouldn't he?

And folk magic isn't the "occult".  It's folk magic.  Like the kind we all participate in frequently every time we follow a tradition for luck or to avoid bad luck.
Spiritualism was big business in the 1800s.

People see sinister evil where all that is present is false tradition.

[mapman]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Regarding the before period ... the June 1976 Ensign article "A Promised Land" says, "[Joseph] grew up
toward adolescence just like the new land. He fitted it. He was young, clean, unspoiled—a lad without a
past, kneeling in a grove.".   Why would the church's education commissioner teach Joseph was unspoiled
when he involved himself with folk magic (the occult)?

Regarding the after period ... why do you feel being involved in occult practices after 1829 would be
considered a 'maybe' issue?

Thanks,
Jim

The "occult" is a kind of nebulous term that includes a lot of disparate things. The esoteric tradition that flourished in European and early American society was actually generally an alternative form of Christianity that focused especially on personal spiritualism and mysteries. In my opinion, being involved in that tradition on its own doesn't make someone "spoiled," just like being involved in any other spiritual tradition wouldn't. Our culture nowadays (and to some extent in Joseph Smith's day as well), tends to look down on things that we don't feel like they fit in the proper bounds of religion. Joseph Smith taught that we should look for goodness and truth wherever we can find it, and I think that our discomfort with the "occult" is unreasonable.

Edited August 23, 2016 by mapman

[mapman]

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks for this post, I'm intrigued by what I've heard about the new book even more now after what you've explained.  

Did the authors talk about how they view the use of the seer stone from a religious perspective?  For example, why would God prepare the Urim and Thummim for the translation of the BoM, only to have Joseph not use it for the most part?  

Or why would Joseph have used the stones to try and find buried treasure, never find any of the treasure, and then later use this same stone potentially to find the BoM location, his wife, and then translate the plates? 

I'm curious if they talk about some of the critiques out there that are troubling to some people about the seer stones, and how they reconcile these issues.  Did they provide any interesting new ways of looking at things? 

 

They talk about seer stones being symbols of authority. They reference some early Mormons that were concerned about whether Brigham Young owned Joseph Smith's seer stones or not, for example. Joseph Smith owning the Nephite interpreters would indicate his authority to translate the plates, even if he switched to using the brown seer stone. I don't remember them talking about why he would have switched stones, though.

As for the second question, they made a big point of the fact that Joseph Smith came to use the seer stones to translate and produce texts, something that none of his neighbors did (I would have wished that they talked about John Dee and Edward Kelley that did use seer stones to produce sacred texts, though). They argue that using seer stones or other sacred objects to produce scriptural texts is an ancient and valid spiritual practice. They argue that the treasure digging was part of a religious tradition (what we call "folk magic" or the "occult"), and so it has something of a continuity with Mormon theology. For some people, using seer stones was about money, but they argue that for many it provided a connection to the ancient past, holy relics, and the sacredness of the land. I'm not sure if I've really explained that very well, so hopefully that makes sense.

I think the most interesting arguments they put forth are the ideas that Joseph's early spirituality, including seer stones and the occult, was a valid source of inspiration that Mormonism built on (this isn't a completely original idea, Steve Fleming argues something similar), and the idea that Joseph Smith didn't transition away from his past as a village seer to be a Christian prophet, but rather that seer stones played an important part in Mormon theology up through the end of the 19th century.

Edited August 23, 2016 by mapman

[strappinglad]

True or false. Joseph used the Nephite ' spectacles ' when translating the 116 pages but found them very large and cumbersome .He lost possession of them when the 116 pages were taken. He used the seer stones after he got the plates back following his faux pas.

 The use of the word occult conjures up Ouija boards and Satanic influences.( see what I did there? )

Edited August 23, 2016 by strappinglad

[hope_for_things]

13 hours ago, mapman said:

They talk about seer stones being symbols of authority. They reference some early Mormons that were concerned about whether Brigham Young owned Joseph Smith's seer stones or not, for example. Joseph Smith owning the Nephite interpreters would indicate his authority to translate the plates, even if he switched to using the brown seer stone. I don't remember them talking about why he would have switched stones, though.

Thats interesting, I haven't heard of this concept before of the stones being a symbol of authority.  I'd like to read more about this, and see what early statements support this idea.  

13 hours ago, mapman said:

As for the second question, they made a big point of the fact that Joseph Smith came to use the seer stones to translate and produce texts, something that none of his neighbors did (I would have wished that they talked about John Dee and Edward Kelley that did use seer stones to produce sacred texts, though). They argue that using seer stones or other sacred objects to produce scriptural texts is an ancient and valid spiritual practice. They argue that the treasure digging was part of a religious tradition (what we call "folk magic" or the "occult"), and so it has something of a continuity with Mormon theology. For some people, using seer stones was about money, but they argue that for many it provided a connection to the ancient past, holy relics, and the sacredness of the land. I'm not sure if I've really explained that very well, so hopefully that makes sense.

This is helpful.  Did they mention the Hyrum Page incident any, I think that was a key event to establish Joseph's authority as the only approved authority (a power play perhaps?)  Also, I wonder about Oliver Cowdery's articles of the church, the first version we have extant copies is in the language of a revelation and I'm wondering if there is any evidence that Oliver used a seer stone or his divining rods to produce this?  We know the Whitmers and others had seer stones too, I wonder if any of them used these in a similar manner? 

13 hours ago, mapman said:

I think the most interesting arguments they put forth are the ideas that Joseph's early spirituality, including seer stones and the occult, was a valid source of inspiration that Mormonism built on (this isn't a completely original idea, Steve Fleming argues something similar), and the idea that Joseph Smith didn't transition away from his past as a village seer to be a Christian prophet, but rather that seer stones played an important part in Mormon theology up through the end of the 19th century.

I think demystifying the seer stones is the right move to try and take away the taboo associations that our culture has towards occult magic practices.  What's the Steve Fleming argument, do you have a link to a paper he wrote on the subject you can share?  

All of this sounds like an expansion on Bushman's thesis in RSR about the seer stones as a training device to help Joseph learn to be a prophet.  The problem I have with this overarching thesis is that in the 21st century, I don't believe in the magical properties of stones.  So I ask myself what was happening, and I have to think that whatever it was, it wasn't God talking through a device to Joseph or others. I tend to think of Joseph as a shaman with an ability to channel a stream of consciousness like automatic writing but in his case it was automatic verbal dictation.  I just can't wrap my mind around the concept that this is how an all powerful God would chose to communicate.  

Edited August 23, 2016 by hope_for_things

[mapman]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Thats interesting, I haven't heard of this concept before of the stones being a symbol of authority.  I'd like to read more about this, and see what early statements support this idea.  

This is helpful.  Did they mention the Hyrum Page incident any, I think that was a key event to establish Joseph's authority as the only approved authority (a power play perhaps?)  Also, I wonder about Oliver Cowdery's articles of the church, the first version we have extant copies is in the language of a revelation and I'm wondering if there is any evidence that Oliver used a seer stone or his divining rods to produce this?  We know the Whitmers and others had seer stones too, I wonder if any of them used these in a similar manner? 

I think demystifying the seer stones is the right move to try and take away the taboo associations that our culture has towards occult magic practices.  What's the Steve Fleming argument, do you have a link to a paper he wrote on the subject you can share?  

All of this sounds like an expansion on Bushman's thesis in RSR about the seer stones as a training device to help Joseph learn to be a prophet.  The problem I have with this overarching thesis is that in the 21st century, I don't believe in the magical properties of stones.  So I ask myself what was happening, and I have to think that whatever it was, it wasn't God talking through a device to Joseph or others. I tend to think of Joseph as a shaman with an ability to channel a stream of consciousness like automatic writing but in his case it was automatic verbal dictation.  I just can't wrap my mind around the concept that this is how an all powerful God would chose to communicate.  

Appendix 3 is entitled "Hiram Page Stone and Continued Use of Seer Stones by Latter-day Saints," and talks about how seer stone use was a normal part of Latter-day Saint religious experience up until the turn of the century when Mormonism overhauled itself and got rid of things like Adam-God, polygamy, and seer stones. I don't think there is any evidence that it was the fact that Page was using a seer stone was the problem, but rather that his revelations contradicted Joseph Smith's and overstepped his stewardship.

Here's an excerpt concerning seer stones and authority: "The Saints in Utah apparently believed that Joseph Smith's seer stones represented authority too. Heber C. Kimball gave a speech in 1853 in which he assured the Saints that Brigham Young had the Urim and Thummim, which was associated with the authority of the priesthood and the power of God. Addressing a question that had apparently been looming in the minds of many Saints, 'Has brother Brigham got the Urim and Thummim?' President Kimball declared, 'Yes he has got everything.'" (72)

Steve Fleming wrote a dissertation, "The Fulness of the Gospel: Christian Platonism and the Origins of Mormonism." Fleming uses "Christian Platonism" to refer to the Western esoteric tradition. He traces how this religious current became an integral part of Mormon theology and compares the teachings of Joseph Smith to people like John Dee, Jane Lead, and other mystics. He's also writes for the Juvenile Instructor blog. You can read the introduction to his dissertation here: http://juvenileinstructor.org/dissertation-introduction-part-1/, and a post by him about Joseph Smith's seer stones: http://juvenileinstructor.org/if-any-of-you-lack-wisdom-seer-stones-and-john-dees-and-joseph-smiths-religious-quests/.

I get where you coming from with not being able to believe in magical properties in stones. I think specific stones would often have symbolic meaning because of their appearance or presumed ancient history. Also, I think it is pretty clear that people all over the world have practiced scrying and have some sort of experience with it (I've seen it suggested that it produces an altered state of mind through perceptual deprivation, which puts the person in a dream-like state while awake). If God can communicate with people through dreams, why not through a seer stone.

[Gray]

Early Christian artwork portrayed Jesus using a wand to work his miracles. There's a paper in there somewhere, comparing Jesus' wand to Joseph's stone (and his divining rod).

[Nevo]

Here are a couple other recent reviews:

http://www.plonialmonimormon.com/2016/08/book-review-joseph-smiths-seer-stones.html (by Stephen Smoot)

https://professorpark.wordpress.com/2016/08/21/review-mackay-and-frederick-joseph-smiths-seer-stones/ (by Ben Park)

One eyebrow-raising passage from Park's review: "There is something striking about finding a chart that traces Joseph Smith’s treasure-digging expeditions, based on the work of Dan Vogel, in a book published by Deseret Book." 

[mapman]

6 minutes ago, Gray said:

Early Christian artwork portrayed Jesus using a wand to work his miracles. There's a paper in there somewhere, comparing Jesus' wand to Joseph's stone (and his divining rod).

Do you know where that painting is from?

[Gray]

Just now, mapman said:

Do you know where that painting is from?

"A Feeding Miracle, Catacomb fresco, Rome, mid 3rd century"

http://wasjesusamagician.blogspot.co.uk/p/appendix-jesus-wand.html

https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/4yhz1j/wma_early_depictions_of_christ_had_him_sometimes/

 

[mapman]

12 minutes ago, Gray said:

"A Feeding Miracle, Catacomb fresco, Rome, mid 3rd century"

http://wasjesusamagician.blogspot.co.uk/p/appendix-jesus-wand.html

https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/4yhz1j/wma_early_depictions_of_christ_had_him_sometimes/

 

Thanks, that's some pretty interesting stuff. Some people seem to be arguing that depictions of Jesus using a rod are meant to evoke Moses' miracles. That may be true, but I think that Christian users of divining rods always looked back to Moses and Aaron anyways.

Edited August 23, 2016 by mapman

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, mapman said:

Appendix 3 is entitled "Hiram Page Stone and Continued Use of Seer Stones by Latter-day Saints," and talks about how seer stone use was a normal part of Latter-day Saint religious experience up until the turn of the century when Mormonism overhauled itself and got rid of things like Adam-God, polygamy, and seer stones. I don't think there is any evidence that it was the fact that Page was using a seer stone was the problem, but rather that his revelations contradicted Joseph Smith's and overstepped his stewardship.

I agree that Joseph's authority was being challenged here, D&C 28 addresses both Oliver's challenge to Joseph's authority which happened in the summer of 1830 as well when he wanted parts of the Articles and Covenants changed as well as Hiram Page's revelations which apparently gave the location for the city of Zion which hadn't been revealed yet to Joseph.  But the wording of that revelation said that he was deceived by Satan, and some second hand accounts have Hiram's black seer stone being destroyed.  So there is this idea that seer stones are either blessed by God or corrupted by Satan that is part of the explanation. 

Personally, I see a shift happening from Joseph's earlier egalitarian views on revelation and wanting everyone to have an individual personal experience, to the difficulties of managing a group of people in a church organization where anyone and everyone can assert different opinions.  Although its interesting that D&C 28 also stresses the Articles and Covenants of the church needing to be followed, and the principle of common consent.  

I just finished reading the JSPP scanned copy of this revelation and the wording talking about Oliver being able to receive revelations on his mission but not able to write these revelations to the church by way of commandment.  Very odd, but interesting that Joseph's evolution of thought first just limited the writing of the revelations, but not the verbal preaching of individual revelations.  I know there was also a period of secrecy that took hold for a while where the revelations were kept secret and were not to be shared with the world.  All of these examples seem to be responses to the surrounding circumstances that were putting pressures on  Joseph and his newly formed church.  

Also, thanks for the Steve Fleming links, I'll check those out.  

1 hour ago, mapman said:

I get where you coming from with not being able to believe in magical properties in stones. I think specific stones would often have symbolic meaning because of their appearance or presumed ancient history. Also, I think it is pretty clear that people all over the world have practiced scrying and have some sort of experience with it (I've seen it suggested that it produces an altered state of mind through perceptual deprivation, which puts the person in a dream-like state while awake). If God can communicate with people through dreams, why not through a seer stone.

Yes, I think an altered state of some kind is very possible.  Can God use altered states or dreams to communicate to humans?  I guess its possible.  I have a hard time automatically attributing these things to God, and think that its more likely a phenomena happening within the brain and the conscious or subconscious mind, but its possible.  Its also possible that the altered state is somehow tapping into a higher brain function which has some sensory capability that is more aware of things outside our normal means of perception, and this could be attributed to God.  Or perhaps this is what God represents, some kind of collective consciousness.  

Edited August 23, 2016 by hope_for_things

[mapman]

11 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I agree that Joseph's authority was being challenged here, D&C 28 addresses both Oliver's challenge to Joseph's authority which happened in the summer of 1830 as well when he wanted parts of the Articles and Covenants changed as well as Hiram Page's revelations which apparently gave the location for the city of Zion which hadn't been revealed yet to Joseph.  But the wording of that revelation said that he was deceived by Satan, and some second hand accounts have Hiram's black seer stone being destroyed.  So there is this idea that seer stones are either blessed by God or corrupted by Satan that is part of the explanation. 

Personally, I see a shift happening from Joseph's earlier egalitarian views on revelation and wanting everyone to have an individual personal experience, to the difficulties of managing a group of people in a church organization where anyone and everyone can assert different opinions.  Although its interesting that D&C 28 also stresses the Articles and Covenants of the church needing to be followed, and the principle of common consent.  

I just finished reading the JSPP scanned copy of this revelation and the wording talking about Oliver being able to receive revelations on his mission but not able to write these revelations to the church by way of commandment.  Very odd, but interesting that Joseph's evolution of thought first just limited the writing of the revelations, but not the verbal preaching of individual revelations.  I know there was also a period of secrecy that took hold for a while where the revelations were kept secret and were not to be shared with the world.  All of these examples seem to be responses to the surrounding circumstances that were putting pressures on  Joseph and his newly formed church.  

Also, thanks for the Steve Fleming links, I'll check those out.  

Yes, I think an altered state of some kind is very possible.  Can God use altered states or dreams to communicate to humans?  I guess its possible.  I have a hard time automatically attributing these things to God, and think that its more likely a phenomena happening within the brain and the conscious or subconscious mind, but its possible.  Its also possible that the altered state is somehow tapping into a higher brain function which has some sensory capability that is more aware of things outside our normal means of perception, and this could be attributed to God.  Or perhaps this is what God represents, some kind of collective consciousness.  

I have never personally had any dreams that I would consider spiritual or meaningful. I know other people that say they have, and I don't feel like I'm in the position to tell them their experiences are false. It seems some people have different spiritual gifts. Spirituality is very personal and subjective, and I think beyond the scope of science because it cannot be approached objectively. Regardless of how exactly it was produced, the Book of Mormon speaks to me on a spiritual level. I admit it is problematic to attribute phenomena like dreams and visions to God since they can often be contradictory, incoherent, or just plain demented.