Questions on FairMormon's approach

[DBMormon]

On 8/21/2016 at 8:21 PM, CountryBoy said:

I am not going to play your silly game.  If this is simply over your head, I apologize.  But, my point has been made.

Blair is a smart guy and I think he has been kind in asking you to show evidence for your points.  I don't think your articulating points very well and rather than get frustrated why not just try to be vulnerable and help us all see how your point is a Catholic point at large and not a congregational point.

This happens in Mormonism as well.  There are congregations in berkeley california where the brand of Mormonism there is so progressive I likely could have been there and never realized there were issues as I perceive them.  Those Wards in berkeley california are just as authentic as an uber orthodox ward in downtown st george utah.  Any one ward will portray mormonism differently than the whole.  What Blair is asking is fair.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, BHodges said:

If this occurs it should be a last resort. Here we have people who seem eager to see it happen. And that's certainly wrong. 

Of course a last resort, but necessary when the time comes. It brings no joy, but not every thing does.

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, rockpond said:

Agreed.  You'll note that I acknowledged that in my answer. 

Indeed. But then my question remains unanswered. At what point should the Church and the critic part ways?

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Indeed. But then my question remains unanswered. At what point should the Church and the critic part ways?

That you didn't like my answer, doesn't mean your question went unanswered.  

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, BHodges said:

 

I'm not posting here on behalf of the Institute. But I'd say the Institute isn't in the business of "getting out in front of the church" at all. It operates carefully under the oversight of BYU administration and the university Board of Trustees. There are no stated positions on where particular boundaries are drawn for church members. The Institute doesn't speak for the church. I recommend people become familiar with the work we publish to get a better sense of particular perspectives. There are many culture wars in the church right now. The Institute isn't trying to police them as far as I've seen. 

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply. I agree completely. FAIR and MI have many things in common. Here we have an extended discussion about FAIR's response to, as you say, the many culture wars going on in the Church and how FAIR should deal with them. A critic of the Church and FAIR posts an interrogatory that could be perceived as provocative calling for a potentially divisive response from FAIR leaders. His questions could easily be asked of MI. The topic did attract your attention and you have responded. In the minds of many here you are MI, just as if Scott Gordon would be FAIR were he to post. Your opinion and status carry extra weight even if you are not acting in an official capacity, and you did get a hearty round of "amens" from some of the more critical participants here, including Bill. One fallout of the FAIR conference is this discussion about what to do when critics do their thing. Since MI is not being asked to nor does it want to police the culture wars, I think it would be good that FAIR be given the same consideration. Asking FAIR to assume that role, as Bill Reel has done here, seems, well, unfair.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

14 minutes ago, rockpond said:

That you didn't like my answer, doesn't mean your question went unanswered.  

Is that your final answer?

 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, DBMormon said:

Blair is a smart guy and I think he has been kind in asking you to show evidence for your points.  I don't think your articulating points very well and rather than get frustrated why not just try to be vulnerable and help us all see how your point is a Catholic point at large and not a congregational point.

This happens in Mormonism as well.  There are congregations in berkeley california where the brand of Mormonism there is so progressive I likely could have been there and never realized there were issues as I perceive them.  Those Wards in berkeley california are just as authentic as an uber orthodox ward in downtown st george utah.  Any one ward will portray mormonism differently than the whole.  What Blair is asking is fair.

But what you are asking of FAIR, is it fair?

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

You're fine.  There's nothing to feel bad about posting there.  I'm glad you found some old friends there.  That's awesome. 

Thank you.  I have friends on boards all over the place.  You guys are special!

[BHodges]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful reply. I agree completely. FAIR and MI have many things in common. Here we have an extended discussion about FAIR's response to, as you say, the many culture wars going on in the Church and how FAIR should deal with them. A critic of the Church and FAIR posts an interrogatory that could be perceived as provocative calling for a potentially divisive response from FAIR leaders. His questions could easily be asked of MI. The topic did attract your attention and you have responded. In the minds of many here you are MI, just as if Scott Gordon would be FAIR were he to post. Your opinion and status carry extra weight even if you are not acting in an official capacity, and you did get a hearty round of "amens" from some of the more critical participants here, including Bill. One fallout of the FAIR conference is this discussion about what to do when critics do their thing. Since MI is not being asked to nor does it want to police the culture wars, I think it would be good that FAIR be given the same consideration. Asking FAIR to assume that role, as Bill Reel has done here, seems, well, unfair.

No problem. Keep in mind I don't regularly follow this message board. Message boards tend to develop in-groups that argue about various things, posters usually aligning with perceived allies against a projected (or injected) other group. There's a team sport spirit that puts an occasional poster like me at a disadvantage. When you see anyone in particular agreeing with me I hope you won't situate me on some particular team on the message board, keeping in mind I'm not invested in these battles in the same way. Instead of sitting across from each other like an arm wrestling contest, I'd rather try to sit next to each other, looking at a topic or point of disagreement on the table in front of us. This kind of posture difference really matters. I haven't been active on this message board for a few years now for the most part. I'm kind of discouraged by the aggressive tone, to be honest, and hope things are a bit lighter in threads I haven't taken time to read. 

Speaking more to the heart round of amens, I think we might pay too much attention sometimes to who is cheering for who, who is saying "amen" to who rather than just thinking about the topic at hand, rather than concerning ourselves with truth. Someone once told me that a prominent critic of the church said something nice about a project I'd worked on and they situated me within the critic's camp. That's sort of like equating Hitler's opposition to alcohol and tobacco with our word of Wisdom and wondering if Joseph Smith was like a Nazi (to use an extreme example, not in order to compare anyone in particular to Hitler!).

I don't like this sort of oppositional discourse, especially when it happens among fellow church members so I try not to participate in it. In the other thread I said that differing interpretations of Patrick Mason's presentation reminded me of the old woman/young woman optical illusion, people seeing different things in the same image and emphasizing mostly what they see. It was interesting to see what Bill drew out of it versus what others did.  

Whether Bill was trying to trap FairMormon with his line of questioning matters less to me than whether we can manage to reply with kindness, directness, accuracy, etc. These are ideals I fail to live up to often enough, but I still like to keep them in mind.

Edited August 23, 2016 by BHodges

[Chaos]

On that note, the thread is closed.