Moroni

[jkwilliams]

2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

It's my style to answer questions (especially those from critics of the LDS Church) in a cogent manner. Read my contributions to the present 'Cosmology' thread on the social forum and you'll observe I like to get to the heart of each matter in a straight-forward, no-nonsense way (folks often tell me I should have been a lawyer). In the case of the original poster on the 'Cosmology' thread, she rejoiced in my style and methodology of dialogue.

You'll also have to forgive me if I become annoyed with critics of the LDS Church who seem to have nothing better in the world to do than spend an inordinate amount of their allotted time on earth trying to score points against the doctrines and teachings of the the Church I love and know for a surety is true. I don't go to non-LDS Christian websites and constantly demean and cast doubt on their beliefs. But if non-LDS critics want to come on this board and spend many hours of their lives demeaning and casting doubts on my beliefs, they must expect that if I choose to engage with them I will do so in a take-no-prisoners style. 

 

The guy asked a question, and everyone else seemed able and willing to answer it respectfully.

[smac97]

21 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I don't believe translated beings are resurrected, although like the 3 Nephites they can receive further bodily perfection at the general time of resurrection. The next general resurrection is per Daniel 12 as prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 25.

I agree that being "translated" and being "resurrected" are not synonymous.  The former is a temporary condition, whereas the latter is permanent.

A person can be "translated" and then subsequently "resurrected."  Indeed, anyone who is "translated" must, sooner or later, be "resurrected."  However, I'm not sure that happened with Moroni.  He appears to have gone through the resurrection process (that is the position of the Church, which I think is both informed and correct).  Whether he was translated prior to being resurrected is a separate issue.

Thanks,

-Smac

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I agree that being "translated" and being "resurrected" are not synonymous.  The former is a temporary condition, whereas the latter is permanent.

A person can be "translated" and then subsequently "resurrected."  Indeed, anyone who is "translated" must, sooner or later, be "resurrected."  However, I'm not sure that happened with Moroni.  He appears to have gone through the resurrection process (that is the position of the Church, which I think is both informed and correct).

Cfr

[smac97]

40 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Cfr

CFR for which point?

The LDS Church teaches that Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith as a "resurrected" being.  There is no reasonable dispute about that (see, e.g., here).  

As to a "translated" person subsequently becoming a "resurrected" person, that too is not within reasonable dispute, IMHO.  See, e.g., here.

As to whether Moroni was "translated" at some point and then "resurrected," I don't know (a point I specifically noted already), so I can't respond to a CFR on that.  Apparently Moses and Elijah were translated and then resurrected (see here).  But both of these men preceded the Savior on the earth.  I am not aware of any account of a translated-and-then-resurrected person who lived after the Savior's mortal ministry and resurrection.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 19, 2016 by smac97

[RevTestament]

23 hours ago, smac97 said:

CFR for which point?

all of them:

Quote

The LDS Church teaches that Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith as a "resurrected" being.  There is no reasonable dispute about that (see, e.g., here).  

No, there is no dispute the church teaches that. But I have seen essentially no weighty evidence that Moroni was resurrected rather than translated. A word from some note connected to JS is not very probative imho.

Quote

As to a "translated" person subsequently becoming a "resurrected" person, that too is not within reasonable dispute, IMHO.  See, e.g., here.

Sure it is.

Resurrection is defined as: 

noun

1.

the act of rising from the dead.

2.

(initial capital letter) the rising of Christ after His death and burial.

3.

(initial capital letter) the rising of the dead on Judgment Day.

4.

the state of those risen from the dead.

5.

a rising again, as from decay, disuse, etc.; revival.

That link leads to a scripture I was actually going to use to show translation is not resurrection. That link leads to 3 Nephi 28:40, but let's look at more:

38 Therefore, that they might not taste of death there was a change wrought upon their bodies, that they might notsuffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world.

 39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.

 40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens.

So where are they resurrected from the dead? They are not. Where did Elijah go when he was taken live to heaven? Did he go live with spirits in spirit paradise? No, he went where the resurrected go. Those 3 Nephites don't need resurrection from the dead, for their bodies will be perfected just like the resurrected.

Quote

As to whether Moroni was "translated" at some point and then "resurrected," I don't know (a point I specifically noted already), so I can't respond to a CFR on that.  Apparently Moses and Elijah were translated and then resurrected (see here).  But both of these men preceded the Savior on the earth.  I am not aware of any account of a translated-and-then-resurrected person who lived after the Savior's mortal ministry and resurrection.

Thanks,

-Smac

That basically references a scripture from D&C which says Moses & Elijah were with Jesus at His resurrection. That does not necessarily mean and does not say they were "resurrected." I concede it is possible Peter was resurrected rather than translated.

In the scriptures translation has a different use than resurrection. No place do the scriptures refer to a resurrected person as "translated." Translation is different from resurrection because the body never dies. Ultimately, the translated and resurrected can end up in the same place tho - heaven.

Thank your thoughtful effort to express your view.

[smac97]

39 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I have seen essentially no weighty evidence that Moroni was resurrected rather than translated. A word from some note connected to JS is not very probative imho.

I think we have more than that.  First, we have a scriptural description of Moroni as having come "from the presence of God" (JS-H 1:33).  This description is attributed to Moroni himself.

Second, what we understand about "translated" beings is that they "are not taken into the presence of God," that "{t}heir  place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order," and that they "as yet have not entered into so great a fullness as those who are resurrected from the dead."

Third, the foregoing remarks are by Joseph Smith (which is I think a bit more than "some note connected to {Joseph Smith}").  Though not canonical, I think these remarks are probative to some extent.

Fourth, my current assessment is that A) since "translated" beings have apparently not yet been admitted to "the presence of God," and B) since Moroni described himself as having come "from the presence of God," then C) the Church's position - that Moroni was/is a resurrected being - is likely correct.

Fifth, I am not sure I understand your position re: "translated" beings.  Are you suggesting that "translated" beings need not be resurrected?  That they will exist in the eternities in that state?  If so, what are your thoughts on the "twinkling of an eye" transformation promised to the Three Nephites in 3 Nephi 28:8? 

I am open to alternative arguments/evidence (that Moroni was/is a "translated" being).

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited July 20, 2016 by smac97

[RevTestament]

24 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think we have more than that.  First, we have a scriptural description of Moroni as having come "from the presence of God" (JS-H 1:33).  This description is attributed to Moroni himself.

In that use this could refer to Jesus as God.

Quote

Second, what we understand about "translated" beings is that they "are not taken into the presence of God," that "{t}heir  place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order," and that they "as yet have not entered into so great a fullness as those who are resurrected from the dead."

Translated beings are essentially ministering angels - that is what Moroni is. I agree that they have not reached the same fullness received at the time of resurrection. Again that does not mean they will be resurrected.

Quote

Third, the foregoing remarks are by Joseph Smith (which is I think a bit more than "some note connected to {Joseph Smith}").  Though not canonical, I think these remarks are probative to some extent.

Fourth, my current assessment is that A) since "translated" beings have apparently not yet been admitted to "the presence of God," and B) since Moroni described himself as having come "from the presence of God," then C) the Church's position - that Moroni was/is a resurrected being - is likely correct.

possibly - this is probably your best argument. Nevertheless, in a sense all angels are sent from the presence of God. I claim no direct revelation on whether Moroni is translated or resurrected, but his life does not fall into a general resurrection period.

Quote

Fifth, I am not sure I understand your position re: "translated" beings.  Are you suggesting that "translated" beings need not be resurrected?  That they will exist in the eternities in that state?  If so, what are your thoughts on the "twinkling of an eye" transformation promised to the Three Nephites in 3 Nephi 28:8? 

I am open to alternative arguments/evidence (that Moroni was/is a "translated" being).

Thanks,

-Smac

See my reference above. "Those 3 Nephites don't need resurrection from the dead, for their bodies will be perfected just like the resurrected." What I am saying is that translated beings undergo a further perfecting process in which their bodies are brought to the same perfection as those who are resurrected, but without being resurrected - their spirits are never separated from their bodies, and therefore don't need to be reunited in a resurrection from the spirit world.