Was Jesus a scrounger or is his life evidence of a failed apocalyptic hope.

[mfbukowski]

17 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

From the Didache.... Regarding prophets and apostles and remuneration:

Chapter 11. Concerning Teachers, Apostles, and Prophets. Whosoever, therefore, comes and teaches you all these things that have been said before, receive him. But if the teacher himself turns and teaches another doctrine to the destruction of this, hear him not. But if he teaches so as to increase righteousness and the knowledge of the Lord, receive him as the Lord. But concerning the apostles and prophets, act according to the decree of the Gospel. Let every apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord. But he shall not remain more than one day; or two days, if there's a need. But if he remains three days, he is a false prophet. And when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread until he lodges. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet. And every prophet who speaks in the Spirit you shall neither try nor judge; for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven. But not every one who speaks in the Spirit is a prophet; but only if he holds the ways of the Lord. Therefore from their ways shall the false prophet and the prophet be known. And every prophet who orders a meal in the Spirit does not eat it, unless he is indeed a false prophet. And every prophet who teaches the truth, but does not do what he teaches, is a false prophet. And every prophet, proved true, working unto the mystery of the Church in the world, yet not teaching others to do what he himself does, shall not be judged among you, for with God he has his judgment; for so did also the ancient prophets. But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others' sake who are in need, let no one judge him. 

Chapter 12. Reception of Christians. But receive everyone who comes in the name of the Lord, and prove and know him afterward; for you shall have understanding right and left. If he who comes is a wayfarer, assist him as far as you are able; but he shall not remain with you more than two or three days, if need be. But if he wants to stay with you, and is an artisan, let him work and eat. But if he has no trade, according to your understanding, see to it that, as a Christian, he shall not live with you idle. But if he wills not to do, he is a Christ-monger. Watch that you keep away from such. 

Chapter 13. Support of Prophets. But every true prophet who wants to live among you is worthy of his support. So also a true teacher is himself worthy, as the workman, of his support. Every first-fruit, therefore, of the products of wine-press and threshing-floor, of oxen and of sheep, you shall take and give to the prophets, for they are your high priests. But if you have no prophet, give it to the poor. If you make a batch of dough, take the first-fruit and give according to the commandment. So also when you open a jar of wine or of oil, take the first-fruit and give it to the prophets; and of money (silver) and clothing and every possession, take the first-fruit, as it may seem good to you, and give according to the commandment.

Personally, I pretty much accept the Didache as scripture.  A pinch of salt here and there, but overall, an amazing book.

[rodheadlee]

On 5/2/2016 at 4:46 AM, Abulafia said:

I am not so sure that the family had much personal wealth in their current situation.  Carpenters or general builders would have come pretty low down the social pecking order from an economic point of view.  Fishermen would have been similar.  They lived, they worked hard, but they would have been subject to the vagaries of economic circumstances as much as anyone else.  Life would have been pretty insecure, particularly with Roman rule, taxation burdens and general Galilean annoyance with the Roman leadership and their cronies.


 

I'm a lowly carpenter and I managed to save enough money to sail around the world for 6 years in a paid for sailboat, it cost less than most cars.. We didn't lterally do a circumnavigation but we managed to sail to Mexico, Central America, and the South Pacific. I'm pretty sure Jesus was a better carpenter than me and could save His money for a mission that He knew would last 3 years or so. Funny thing, between Mexico and the Marquesas Islands (a 26 day voyage) the market crashed. People were feaking out in the anchorage when we arrived. We were already used to having nothing so it was no big deal to us.

[Abulafia]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Personally, I pretty much accept the Didache as scripture.  A pinch of salt here and there, but overall, an amazing book.

For me, (and I have spent some time on this book since my tutor is an expert in the subject) the Didache is an amazing resource and evidence of practice in the 'dark ages' of early christian development.  The Eucharistic practice is truly astounding.  But I guess that is also a subject for another thread.

[Abulafia]

5 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I'm a lowly carpenter and I managed to save enough money to sail around the world for 6 years in a paid for sailboat, it cost less than most cars.. We didn't lterally do a circumnavigation but we managed to sail to Mexico, Central America, and the South Pacific. I'm pretty sure Jesus was a better carpenter than me and could save His money for a mission that He knew would last 3 years or so. Funny thing, between Mexico and the Marquesas Islands (a 26 day voyage) the market crashed. People were feaking out in the anchorage when we arrived. We were already used to having nothing so it was no big deal to us.

There's nothing at all lowly about being a carpenter!  It's an honourable trade and we would be pretty much lost without it.  

I think that your attempts to plant LDS contemporary practice (I think that there were missionaries even within Mormonism that went out without purse or scrip - but I am sure others know more about that than me), are problematic.

You can assume that Jesus saved up for his mission, so to speak, but in doing so you would be creating a tradition that just isn't there in any of the texts.  There are multiple accounts, affirmed by Paul, who is the earliest witness, that the earliest apostles, ambassadors, witnesses, teachers, the twelve, - went out without possessions and relied on others for their maintenance.  It may grate against contemporary ears in an age when we are expected to be self sufficient, but this doesn't appear to be the way the earliest disciples worked, whether we like it or not.  

Maybe something else was going on here.  Jesus was supported by others (if we use Luke's account those supporters  included women) for his everyday needs, but there were occasions when he didn't appear to have a bed for the night, and most likely slept rough.  (no shame in that)   Going out without possessions and eschewing them altogether does very much tie in with an apocalyptic outlook.  

 

We can say that Jesus didn't eschew wealth (personally) but he appears to have done so, at least temporarily and ultimately for him, permanently.   

Edited May 5, 2016 by Abulafia
grammar

[rodheadlee]

5 hours ago, Abulafia said:

There's nothing at all lowly about being a carpenter!  It's an honourable trade and we would be pretty much lost without it.  

I think that your attempts to plant LDS contemporary practice (I think that there were missionaries even within Mormonism that went out without purse or scrip - but I am sure others know more about that than me), are problematic.

You can assume that Jesus saved up for his mission, so to speak, but in doing so you would be creating a tradition that just isn't there in any of the texts.  There are multiple accounts, affirmed by Paul, who is the earliest witness, that the earliest apostles, ambassadors, witnesses, teachers, the twelve, - went out without possessions and relied on others for their maintenance.  It may grate against contemporary ears in an age when we are expected to be self sufficient, but this doesn't appear to be the way the earliest disciples worked, whether we like it or not.  

Maybe something else was going on here.  Jesus was supported by others (if we use Luke's account those supporters  included women) for his everyday needs, but there were occasions when he didn't appear to have a bed for the night, and most likely slept rough.  (no shame in that)   Going out without possessions and eschewing them altogether does very much tie in with an apocalyptic outlook.  

 

We can say that Jesus didn't eschew wealth (personally) but he appears to have done so, at least temporarily and ultimately for him, permanently.   

I belive the Apostle Paul worked his way through his mission. See Acts 18:

2 And found a certain Jew named ^aAquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.

  3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and ^awrought: for by their occupation they were ^btentmakers.

A different translation: 

2There he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to visit them, 3and he stayed andworked with them because they were tentmakers by trade,just as he was. 4Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks alike.…

[thesometimesaint]

5 hours ago, Abulafia said:

There's nothing at all lowly about being a carpenter!  It's an honourable trade and we would be pretty much lost without it.  

I think that your attempts to plant LDS contemporary practice (I think that there were missionaries even within Mormonism that went out without purse or scrip - but I am sure others know more about that than me), are problematic.

You can assume that Jesus saved up for his mission, so to speak, but in doing so you would be creating a tradition that just isn't there in any of the texts.  There are multiple accounts, affirmed by Paul, who is the earliest witness, that the earliest apostles, ambassadors, witnesses, teachers, the twelve, - went out without possessions and relied on others for their maintenance.  It may grate against contemporary ears in an age when we are expected to be self sufficient, but this doesn't appear to be the way the earliest disciples worked, whether we like it or not.  

Maybe something else was going on here.  Jesus was supported by others (if we use Luke's account those supporters  included women) for his everyday needs, but there were occasions when he didn't appear to have a bed for the night, and most likely slept rough.  (no shame in that)   Going out without possessions and eschewing them altogether does very much tie in with an apocalyptic outlook.  

 

We can say that Jesus didn't eschew wealth (personally) but he appears to have done so, at least temporarily and ultimately for him, permanently.   

Early LDS Missionaries did go without purse or scrip. But since that time most countries have developed strict rules against foreigners being vagrants. You have to have some visible means of support to even enter their country.

[Abulafia]

41 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Early LDS Missionaries did go without purse or scrip. But since that time most countries have developed strict rules against foreigners being vagrants. You have to have some visible means of support to even enter their country.

I thought I had read something about it.  I can't imagine having gone out with nothing in my pocket as a 21 year old missionary, and relying on others.  I mean, it may be, that the early disciples had a network of friends, sympathisers, whom they could call on for support if they really needed it.  

Evidence for this is in the account of the last supper.  Although it is set within a miraculous framework, from a historical viewpoint it may be that Jesus knew some families or relatives well enough, in the Jerusalem area, that he could call on their help if he needed it.

 

 

Quote

 

Mark 14:12-26New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

The Passover with the Disciples

¹² On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb is sacrificed, his disciples said to him, “Where do you want us to go and make the preparations for you to eat the Passover?” ¹³ So he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, “Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you; follow him, ¹⁴ and wherever he enters, say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher asks, Where is my guest room where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ ¹⁵ He will show you a large room upstairs, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there.”¹⁶ So the disciples set out and went to the city, and found everything as he had told them; and they prepared the Passover meal.

 

 

[Abulafia]

56 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I belive the Apostle Paul worked his way through his mission. See Acts 18:

2 And found a certain Jew named ^aAquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.

  3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and ^awrought: for by their occupation they were ^btentmakers.

A different translation: 

2There he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to visit them, 3and he stayed andworked with them because they were tentmakers by trade,just as he was. 4Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks alike.…

Yes, exactly!  This is a second hand report and the author of Luke Acts appears to have this tradition which has some authenticity to it.

For Paul's own version 1 Corinthians 9 is utterly fascinating.

 

 

Quote

 

1 Corinthians 9New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

The Rights of an Apostle

9 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? ² If I am not an apostle to others, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

³ This is my defense to those who would examine me. ⁴ Do we not have the right to our food and drink? ⁵ Do we not have the right to be accompanied by a believing wife,^[a] as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? ⁶ Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living? ⁷ Who at any time pays the expenses for doing military service? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat any of its fruit? Or who tends a flock and does not get any of its milk?

⁸ Do I say this on human authority? Does not the law also say the same?⁹ For it is written in the law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it for oxen that God is concerned? ¹⁰ Or does he not speak entirely for our sake? It was indeed written for our sake, for whoever plows should plow in hope and whoever threshes should thresh in hope of a share in the crop. ¹¹ If we have sown spiritual good among you, is it too much if we reap your material benefits? ¹² If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we still more?

Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ.¹³ Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is sacrificed on the altar? ¹⁴ In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

¹⁵ But I have made no use of any of these rights, nor am I writing this so that they may be applied in my case. Indeed, I would rather die than that—no one will deprive me of my ground for boasting! ¹⁶ If I proclaim the gospel, this gives me no ground for boasting, for an obligation is laid on me, and woe to me if I do not proclaim the gospel! ¹⁷ For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward; but if not of my own will, I am entrusted with a commission. ¹⁸ What then is my reward? Just this: that in my proclamation I may make the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my rights in the gospel.

 

 

[thesometimesaint]

14 minutes ago, Abulafia said:

I thought I had read something about it.  I can't imagine having gone out with nothing in my pocket as a 21 year old missionary, and relying on others.  I mean, it may be, that the early disciples had a network of friends, sympathisers, whom they could call on for support if they really needed it.  

Evidence for this is in the account of the last supper.  Although it is set within a miraculous framework, from a historical viewpoint it may be that Jesus knew some families or relatives well enough, in the Jerusalem area, that he could call on their help if he needed it.
 

The early LDS were poor and Missionaries weren't rich. They weren't as a general rule that young. IIRC most were married men with children. It was a tough time to be a Missionary just opening a Mission area. I've paid for my own sons' mission and my grandnephews. I feel blessed to be able to do it.

[Bernard Gui]

On May 4, 2016 at 11:06 AM, Abulafia said:

The advice on how to protect against *hospitality* abuse points to a situation where abuses were occurring.  What it does indicate is that the admonition of Jesus to the early followers was taken seriously.  Go out without purse or scrip. (See Mark 8 above)

My great-uncle served in the Southern States Mission from 1900-1902. They travelled without money, and nothing but a satchel for books and clothing. Reading his journal is like reading about the travels and travails of Paul.

They walked through the hills mountains on trails and wagon roads. At nightfall they knocked on doors of houses nearby and asked for "entertainment," meaning food and a place to sleep. Sometimes they were successful, sometimes not. If not, he said they "slept with 'Uncle Sam.'" They ate a lot of berries and watermelon. If they knew of Mormons in their area they would try to get to their homes because that meant a bed or spot in the hay and some food. They always offered to preach a sermon in homes that entertained them. He said the worst thing about "sleeping with Uncle Sam" was "the humbleful bugs," which I take to mean chiggers. They were a lot tougher in those days.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On May 5, 2016 at 7:37 PM, mfbukowski said:

Personally, I pretty much accept the Didache as scripture.  A pinch of salt here and there, but overall, an amazing book.

I agree. As far as I am concerned, it's pretty darn near first-hand information about the earlliest Church. Reminds of the Priesrhood Handbooks today.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Bernard Gui