ALarson Posted March 25, 2016 Author Posted March 25, 2016 15 hours ago, JLHPROF said: President Grant wasn't called "Brigham's Sledgehammer" for nothing. He was one of the driving forces in the Mormon Reformation of the 1850s. Being politically correct was not a concern for him. Yes, Grant's quotes are pretty amazing (and shocking) to read. I think he was even more bold and blunt that Brigham Young (if that's possible ). There was never much doubt what they believed and they weren't afraid to express it. Didn't you used to have a quote in you signature line by Jedediah Grant? Or is that someone else?
USU78 Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 6 hours ago, sunstoned said: When I read stuff like this from Brigham Young and the early leaders, it makes me thankful that the U.S. government did step in and didn't allow Utah to continue as a theocracy. Of course you are. Those of us whose relatives were driven and starved and died during the Utah War are not quite so sanguine on the subject: I visit my great-great grandmother's grave in Brigham City every year. Where she and her newborn twins lie together. I also know the difference between words and actions. I likewise know what Phineas was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phinehas And I, moreover, know that the Godbeite views on Blood Atonement are wholly inconsistent with the actual doctrine: It is my own hand that holds the knife; it is my own hand the sheds my own blood for guilt when my faithlessness imbues me with such horror at my actions that I utterly and completely lose faith in the Master's ultimate and universal atonement. But, hey, if you feel like you scored some kind of rhetorical victory over the savage Mormon imbeciles of the XIXth Century, lay on.
ALarson Posted March 25, 2016 Author Posted March 25, 2016 (edited) 13 minutes ago, USU78 said: Of course you are. Those of us whose relatives were driven and starved and died during the Utah War are not quite so sanguine on the subject: I visit my great-great grandmother's grave in Brigham City every year. Where she and her newborn twins lie together. They were killed during the Utah War? I would be interested in hearing their story (if you feel comfortable posting that). I had understood there were few casualties from the Utah War and most of those were nonmembers. . Edited March 25, 2016 by ALarson
The Nehor Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 7 hours ago, sunstoned said: When I read stuff like this from Brigham Young and the early leaders, it makes me thankful that the U.S. government did step in and didn't allow Utah to continue as a theocracy. Yeah, because the federal government did such a good job at that. 1
Calm Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 (edited) The removal of the vote from the majority of the population (women) was such a good move to ensure true democracy. Loyalty tests to be allowed to vote...another move so well known in democratic communities. Edited March 25, 2016 by Calm
Keq82 Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 9 hours ago, sunstoned said: When I read stuff like this from Brigham Young and the early leaders, it makes me thankful that the U.S. government did step in and didn't allow Utah to continue as a theocracy. Yeah, great point! Many teachings in the Journal of Discources are way out there! I found it interesting that, "The Journal of Discourses is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a compilation of sermons and other materials from the early years of the Church, which were transcribed and then published. It included some doctrinal instruction but also practical teaching, some of which is speculative in nature and some of which is only of historical interest." https://www.lds.org/topics/journal-of-discourses?lang=eng&_r=1
Calm Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 (edited) Much of the transcription isn't the original wording They were altered by George Watts to be more in line with his own opinion of how they should sound. One should be very cautious about quoting from the Journal and preferably use other sources for the sermons such as the Deseret News. See: Dirkmaat, Gerrit and LaJean Purcell Carruth. “The Prophets Have Spoken, but What Did They Say? Examining the Differences between George D. Watt’s Original Shorthand Notes and the Sermons Published in the Journal of Discourses.” BYU Studies 54, no. 4 (2015): 24-118. Edited March 25, 2016 by Calm
USU78 Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 6 hours ago, ALarson said: They were killed during the Utah War? I would be interested in hearing their story (if you feel comfortable posting that). I had understood there were few casualties from the Utah War and most of those were nonmembers. I didn't quite say they were combat deaths, and I understand why you might wonder, given the well-documented [relative] bloodlessness of the Utah War. The order to evacuate Brigham City came as my great-great grandmother reached full term. The rigors of the road under those circumstances were such that she and one of the twins died before they got very far: My G-G Grandfather took them back for burial and took the surviving twin with him. That twin died at Kay's Creek [Kaysville], so he traveled back to Brigham with his little corpse and buried him with his mother and twin. The same happened with his prior wife during the Nauvoo evacuation: pregnant with twins; mom and babies died shortly after birth; my G-G Grandfather buried them along the road in Iowa in an unmarked grave. Sorry for the buggy ride [this is plainly off-topic to the thread], but I didn't want the gratuitous slam [also a threadjack] to remain unanswered
ALarson Posted March 25, 2016 Author Posted March 25, 2016 12 minutes ago, USU78 said: I didn't quite say they were combat deaths, and I understand why you might wonder, given the well-documented [relative] bloodlessness of the Utah War. The order to evacuate Brigham City came as my great-great grandmother reached full term. The rigors of the road under those circumstances were such that she and one of the twins died before they got very far: My G-G Grandfather took them back for burial and took the surviving twin with him. That twin died at Kay's Creek [Kaysville], so he traveled back to Brigham with his little corpse and buried him with his mother and twin. The same happened with his prior wife during the Nauvoo evacuation: pregnant with twins; mom and babies died shortly after birth; my G-G Grandfather buried them along the road in Iowa in an unmarked grave. Sorry for the buggy ride [this is plainly off-topic to the thread], but I didn't want the gratuitous slam [also a threadjack] to remain unanswered Thanks for posting about this (I was truly interested in what happened). What "gratuitous slam" (not my post????)?
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