Should Mormons Have A Personal Relationship With Jesus?

[consiglieri]

48 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

No, that is 180 degress from what I thought I was saying. Honestly I am not sure how you got that from that post.

You must have a testimony of every principle.  If the testimony disagrees with the leader you either take the leader's statement with a grain of salt, or if it is serious enough, you walk.

Overall I agree with 85% of what "the leaders" teach, but I keep a big salt shaker by the side of my bed.  Overall I totally agree with what I understand the philosophy of the church to be.  I joined the church for the philosophy and certainly not for BRM's "Mormon Doctrine".  I joined in 1980, and read that book and almost walked immediately.

Then I realized that it was one man's take on what I had found by the spirit.  I kept believing what I believed and stayed.

These are human beings, not demi-gods. They look at everything through their prejudices and I look at everything through mine.  To me, 85% agreement is pretty darn good.

But the bottom line is that these disagreements are not serious issues.  They have been remedied.  I joined after blacks were allowed to receive the priesthood.  I would not have joined before that.  I figured - "Oh- these guys used to be racist like everyone else, but now they are trying to change, like everyone else."  No biggie.

Same with polygamy.  As a principle I actually have no problem with it- it is authorized in the OT, but was Joseph actually authorized by God to do that?  To me it was irrelevant.  It didn't concern me personally.  Maybe it was from God, maybe not.  This is and was the best church humanity has to offer, in my opinion, but guess what- we ARE talking about humans here.  Inspired humans- no question in my mind.

But in the final analysis if there is something serious that I disagree with and the spirit tells me to disagree, I am out of here.

I sympathize with people who leave over ssm- but I happen to think they are wrong.  I see no good argument for ssm and the spirit tells me it is wrong, so here I stay. 

I have no clue how you got that understanding out of my post, if indeed you honestly did.

With your permission, I would like to start a thread devoted to the issue you raise to give you the chance to further explicate it.

I really do want to understand where you are coming from.

But I am not alone in having trouble following you.

Are you game for it?

[jwhitlock]

41 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Overall I agree with 85% of what "the leaders" teach, but I keep a big salt shaker by the side of my bed.  Overall I totally agree with what I understand the philosophy of the church to be.  I joined the church for the philosophy and certainly not for BRM's "Mormon Doctrine".  I joined in 1980, and read that book and almost walked immediately.

Then I realized that it was one man's take on what I had found by the spirit.  I kept believing what I believed and stayed.

These are human beings, not demi-gods. They look at everything through their prejudices and I look at everything through mine.  To me, 85% agreement is pretty darn good.

This is a realistic philosophy. Overall, leaders of the church have a rather good track record and are a more reliable resource than other sources (such as critics) when looking for guidance in our spiritual journeys.

However, they don't define the journey, nor are they perfect guides. The journey is defined by God through the Spirit. We use the resources (church, prophets, ordinances, covenants, etc.) that God has made available to assist us on our journey back to Him, but ultimately it is the atoning power of Christ that is the foundation of the journey.

I give heed to the leaders of the church because their counsel is generally excellent (the 85% principle) and I need all the help I can get. The Spirit helps me tie up loose ends and tells me what to do with the other 15%, which is typically to ignore it as the background noise of mortality.

 

[salgare]

15 minutes ago, jwhitlock said:

Why should that be disturbing? What specific criteria do you have for validating a prophet?

I started a new thread as this is a sideline

[jwhitlock]

7 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Perhaps your objections would best be registered with President Kimball.

If I thought you had given an accurate representation of what President Kimball intended, then I might try to address that with his Master.

But since I lived through that time and understand a little bit of where he was coming from, I don't think you have been accurate.

So you understand, the church does not teach that we perfect ourselves. President Kimball didn't teach that. In order to make your point, you have to pull cherry picked quotes out of context. That's not particularly effective when it comes to really trying to understand what a person is saying. Context is, after all, necessary to really understand what the church is all about.

So the only question is, do you actually want to understand? Or are you just looking for excuses?

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, consiglieri said:

With your permission, I would like to start a thread devoted to the issue you raise to give you the chance to further explicate it.

I really do want to understand where you are coming from.

But I am not alone in having trouble following you.

Are you game for it?

Not til mid January.

Things might be easier after that for many reasons.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, jwhitlock said:

This is a realistic philosophy. Overall, leaders of the church have a rather good track record and are a more reliable resource than other sources (such as critics) when looking for guidance in our spiritual journeys.

However, they don't define the journey, nor are they perfect guides. The journey is defined by God through the Spirit. We use the resources (church, prophets, ordinances, covenants, etc.) that God has made available to assist us on our journey back to Him, but ultimately it is the atoning power of Christ that is the foundation of the journey.

I give heed to the leaders of the church because their counsel is generally excellent (the 85% principle) and I need all the help I can get. The Spirit helps me tie up loose ends and tells me what to do with the other 15%, which is typically to ignore it as the background noise of mortality.

 

Yep that pretty well nails it for me as well.

We are here to organize our own worlds.  THAT is Mormon doctrine !!

I am not a very good parrot.  And that is what Joseph wanted as well.

[jwhitlock]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Yep that pretty well nails it for me as well.

We are here to organize our own worlds.  THAT is Mormon doctrine !!

I am not a very good parrot.  And that is what Joseph wanted as well.

Kind of the whole "teach them correct principles" idea.

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, jwhitlock said:

Kind of the whole "teach them correct principles" idea.

Exactly!!

That is the central idea precisely.

[salgare]

I think that was in reference to governing a group of people

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, salgare said:

I followed an interesting thread the other day that took this same course ... it was in the terms of "by their fruits yea shall know them"  The critic was trying to apply this test to the Prophets, Seers and Revelators while the faithful pushed to burden/test onto the individual members.

Are there not (and should there not) be preconceived criteria on our modern day Prophets and Special Witnesses of Jesus Christ?

As I have written elsewhere on this forum:

Quote

Saints who regularly receive revelation don't tend to question whether the prophets are actually receiving revelation. Faithful members who've been assisted in the performance of their family and/or church duties by the ministration of angels don't tend to worry about whether or not the Prophet really conversed with angels. And on it goes.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 hours ago, consiglieri said:

But what I hear you saying is that you either believe everything you are told by current Church leaders or get out.

 

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You follow the leader as a discipline until something hits you as "weird".  "Why would he tell us to do that?"

At that point you pray about it.  Presumably you are in effect praying about everything every minute anyway- but I am certainly not at that point yet.

You pray about it and it still feels weird.  You think about it and find that it is inconsistent in some way with your beliefs.  It is a serious matter of doctrine- not a trivial matter.

If you really do disagree in your heart, you stand up and make your opinion known, talk to the bishop etc.

Personal example of how this works in practice:

A few years ago, I was called in one Sunday morning by our then stake president and asked to take on a new responsibility. It immediately struck me as wrong, and I told him as much. He said he was certain that he was right but, as a good leader, invited me to spend a week pondering, praying, etc. in order get some clarity/peace.

I did so and also spent Saturday morning in the temple with our ward's youth. My heart was drawn out in prayer the whole time I was in the baptistery, and I still felt 'weird' about the whole thing, but the clarity came only when I was standing in the font with a particular young man. We had a pause in baptisms whilst someone obtained more name cards, and very clearly I heard the message that, were I to accept the stake president's request, we would lose this particular young man.

So early the next morning, I went back to the stake president's office and told him that I couldn't accept what he'd asked me to do. Instead, I suggested a 'compromise' that I thought might work. He said the compromise couldn't work, but I felt confident in what I'd experienced the day before in the temple, so we were at an impasse. The stake president, a good and faithful man, suggested we take another week and both seek additional revelation on the matter. I agreed and so we parted ways.

During that week, I was one morning waiting in my car outside the home where our seminary class was taught, reading my Book of Mormon. I read a passage in 3 Nephi that came with great power to my mind and heart as I read it, and I thought, this is the solution; I need to share this with President L-----! Which is what I planned to do the following Sunday morning, but I never got a chance.

After praying together, the stake president thanked me for the opportunity to seek revelation together and then said that he wished to share with me a passage from the Book of Mormon that he had been led to during the week as a clear answer to his personal pleading. It was the exact verses I'd hoped to share with him that morning. Immediately, all my concerns evaporated. We'd both been led to same answer. As a consequence, a compromise was indeed put into place, and everything worked out beautifully.

[jwhitlock]

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

Personal example of how this works in practice:

A few years ago, I was called in one Sunday morning by our then stake president and asked to take on a new responsibility. It immediately struck me as wrong, and I told him as much. He said he was certain that he was right but, as a good leader, invited me to spend a week pondering, praying, etc. in order get some clarity/peace.

I did so and also spent Saturday morning in the temple with our ward's youth. My heart was drawn out in prayer the whole time I was in the baptistery, and I still felt 'weird' about the whole thing, but the clarity came only when I was standing in the font with a particular young man. We had a pause in baptisms whilst someone obtained more name cards, and very clearly I heard the message that, were I to accept the stake president's request, we would lose this particular young man.

So early the next morning, I went back to the stake president's office and told him that I couldn't accept what he'd asked me to do. Instead, I suggested a 'compromise' that I thought might work. He said the compromise couldn't work, but I felt confident in what I'd experienced the day before in the temple, so we were at an impasse. The stake president, a good and faithful man, suggested we take another week and both seek additional revelation on the matter. I agreed and so we parted ways.

During that week, I was one morning waiting in my car outside the home where our seminary class was taught, reading my Book of Mormon. I read a passage in 3 Nephi that came with great power to my mind and heart as I read it, and I thought, this is the solution; I need to share this with President L-----! Which is what I planned to do the following Sunday morning, but I never got a chance.

After praying together, the stake president thanked me for the opportunity to seek revelation together and then said that he wished to share with me a passage from the Book of Mormon that he had been led to during the week as a clear answer to his personal pleading. It was the exact verses I'd hoped to share with him that morning. Immediately, all my concerns evaporated. We'd both been led to same answer. As a consequence, a compromise was indeed put into place, and everything worked out beautifully.

Thanks for sharing. This is exactly how things are supposed to - and often do - work in the church.

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, jwhitlock said:

However, they don't define the journey, nor are they perfect guides. The journey is defined by God through the Spirit. We use the resources (church, prophets, ordinances, covenants, etc.) that God has made available to assist us on our journey back to Him, but ultimately it is the atoning power of Christ that is the foundation of the journey.

A principle that is clearly taught in the endowment. Prophets are essential guides, but their ultimate purpose is to bring men and women to the point that they can converse with the Lord directly.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Hamba Tuhan

[mfbukowski]

I really wish all could understand these principles!

Great stuff, Bros!

So many seem to be locked into rigid authoritarian beliefs which have never been part of the true gospel of Christ.

That is what this is about after all- the same gospel Christ preached in NT times.  It's not some crazy mixture of Evangelical Calvinism hellfire brimstone "obey or die" nonsense, but the loving gospel of Jesus Christ.

I really worry about the upbringing of those who do not see it that way and what they are passing on to their children.  I suppose it is the tendency of all humanity to abuse authority- and surprise that is exactly what it says in the scriptures. 

Edited December 29, 2015 by mfbukowski

[salgare]

Hamba Tuhan,

Thanks for that link, I read the thread for context and learned something new about you (education/job).  So that was good to learn.

I started to tell a very recent story here Hamba, but deleted it as it was getting too long and there is really no need to give any examples.

First, I wish/hope that I'm wrong but I have my doubts that there are significant percentages of "Saints who regularly receive revelation".  At least not the standard of revelation that I believe you were referring to in that thread.  At least not my personal standard of revelation.

PaPa made an interesting observation in social earlier about one being blinded by the light, not being ready for revelation.  This struck a chord with me as these years I typically avoid prayer to avoid personal revelation.  However over my years of "apostasy" I've found need/occasion to head to my closet for prayer, like I used to. And again, the revelation flows.

Is this evidence that TSM is a Prophet and that the Church is true?   Or is it possibly evidence to the contrary?

 

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

22 minutes ago, salgare said:

First, I wish/hope that I'm wrong but I have my doubts that there are significant percentages of "Saints who regularly receive revelation".

Hi, salgare. My personal experience, which is of course all I have, is that the Saints I know best (including my current housemates) simply expect revelation to be a defining characteristic of their everyday lives. We talk about it all the time, pray for it personally and collectively, live according to the inspiration and guidance as it comes, etc.

Quote

Is this evidence that TSM is a Prophet and that the Church is true?   Or is it possibly evidence to the contrary?

I have no ability to interpret your personal experiences for you. I can only do that for myself, and in my case, access to the Divine is inseparably connected with the Book of Mormon and other scriptures, temple attendance, the exercise of the Melchizedek Priesthood, the performance of Church duties, the receipt of ordinances, and hearing/studying the words of the living prophets of God, including President Monson.

As discussed in my post above, it is also for me bound up with sustaining my local Church leaders and honouring their callings. I'm not sure I made it very clear when I posted earlier how desperately I plead with the Lord to help me do what was right by my authorised leaders. My stake president never once found me rebellious or defiant. In fact, I prefaced my concerns the first time by sharing with him the personal witness I had received (a singular occurrence for me) when I was first asked to sustain him as my new stake president.

[consiglieri]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Not til mid January.

Things might be easier after that for many reasons.

Okay.

I hope things go well for you with whatever it is.

Seriously.

[consiglieri]

4 hours ago, jwhitlock said:

If I thought you had given an accurate representation of what President Kimball intended, then I might try to address that with his Master.

But since I lived through that time and understand a little bit of where he was coming from, I don't think you have been accurate.

So you understand, the church does not teach that we perfect ourselves. President Kimball didn't teach that. In order to make your point, you have to pull cherry picked quotes out of context. That's not particularly effective when it comes to really trying to understand what a person is saying. Context is, after all, necessary to really understand what the church is all about.

So the only question is, do you actually want to understand? Or are you just looking for excuses?

 

 

Here you go:

 

“Man can transform himself and he must. Man has in himself the seeds of godhood, which can germinate and grow and develop. As the acorn becomes the oak, the mortal man becomes a god. It is within his power to lift himself by his very bootstraps from the plane on which he finds himself to the plane on which he should be. It may be a long, hard lift with many obstacles, but it is a real possibility.” - Spencer W. Kimball, “The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball,” edited by Edward L. Kimball, p. 28

[salgare]

Hamba,

I honestly think that is where I went wrong, trying to line up and do all of those required things in order have an increase in personal revelation, leading hopefully right up to that personal relationship of which I sought, one's own calling and election, the administration of the second anointing by Jesus himself.

I associated the level of adherence to all of those things you list to my level of worthiness towards that end.

For me, this resulted in over two years of the heavens becoming brass to me, and a following seven years of me not even approaching it again.  I was shocked the first time I really prayed again, some nine years later and the brass had been withdrawn.

Was it not when God the father withdrew his spirit, that the drops of blood formed?  I described it a gaping wound into my soul.  PaPa's term of being blinded by the light, in my case is a fear of ever going there again.  And yet its right there, for free, no demands, no requirements.

 

[Bob Crockett]

9 hours ago, consiglieri said:

I have never said that I became disillusioned with the church and stopped believing when I was released from being Gospel Doctrine teacher.

Why do you feel it necessary to construct apocryphal stories about me and my spiritual journey?

Does it make you feel better?

More secure?

More accurate.

[Bob Crockett]

9 hours ago, consiglieri said:

I have never said that I became disillusioned with the church and stopped believing when I was released from being Gospel Doctrine teacher.

Why do you feel it necessary to construct apocryphal stories about me and my spiritual journey?

Does it make you feel better?

More secure?

More accurate.

[jwhitlock]

43 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

 

 

Here you go:

 

“Man can transform himself and he must. Man has in himself the seeds of godhood, which can germinate and grow and develop. As the acorn becomes the oak, the mortal man becomes a god. It is within his power to lift himself by his very bootstraps from the plane on which he finds himself to the plane on which he should be. It may be a long, hard lift with many obstacles, but it is a real possibility.” - Spencer W. Kimball, “The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball,” edited by Edward L. Kimball, p. 28

From The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.339-40

 

Quote

 

It is because of Heavenly Father’s gift of His Son that all men—past, present, and future—can return to live with Him who is the Father of our spirits. But to insure that that can happen, it was first necessary for Jesus to come to earth in the flesh to teach men by His example the correct way to live and then to willingly give up His life and, in some miraculous way, accept the burden for the sins of mankind.²¹

The purging out of sin would be impossible but for the total repentance of the individual and the kind mercy of the Lord Jesus Christ in his atoning sacrifice. Only by these means can man recover, be healed and washed and purged, and still be eligible for the glories of eternity. On the Savior’s great role in this, Helaman reminded his sons of King Benjamin’s comments:

“… There is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, who shall come, yea, remember that he cometh to redeem the world.” (Hel. 5:9.)

And, in recalling the words which Amulek spoke to Zeezrom, Helaman emphasized man’s part in obtainingforgiveness—repenting from his sins:

“… He said unto him that the Lord surely should come to redeem his people, but that he should not come to redeem them in their sins, but to redeem them from their sins.

“And he hath power given unto him from the Father to redeem them from their sins because of repentance.  …” (Hel. 5:10–11. Italics added.)

As I noted, context is everything. If you cherry pick standalone quotes, you won't understand where he was coming from. And President Kimball both understood and taught the necessity of Christ in the process and that man cannot gain salvation or exaltation without the power of Christ.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2015 by jwhitlock
Clean up

[Deborah]

16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

Personal example of how this works in practice:

A few years ago, I was called in one Sunday morning by our then stake president and asked to take on a new responsibility. It immediately struck me as wrong, and I told him as much. He said he was certain that he was right but, as a good leader, invited me to spend a week pondering, praying, etc. in order get some clarity/peace.

My son recently went through this as well. In order to do his calling, which was in scouting, he would have to sacrifice his daughter's night at karate (his wife doesn't drive) and also working in the temple Saturday morning. The temple where they are desperately needs temple workers. Son told him it just wouldn't work and so the Bishop told him to pray about as would he. They both did and son still felt strongly he should not accept. Bishop also came to the same conclusion and ended up calling someone who was perfect for scouting and who had done it for years and loved it. Bishop got up at next testimony meeting and said that if there is a conflict to let him know because he doesn't know everything and then they can pray about it. Son ended up teaching Sunday School which he could do.

I also had an experience several years ago where I was called to Nursery. It wasn't that I didn't want to do this but I didn't want to get released from my Laurel class. Being a wise bishop he too asked me to pray. I did and all of a sudden all these ideas came to my mind of what I would do if I were Nursery leader. I called the Bishop and told him I was so excited and would love to do the calling. I did it for 3 years at that time and it was absolutely the best calling I've ever had.

Prayer and fasting work wonders.

[consiglieri]

16 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I really worry about the upbringing of those who do not see it that way and what they are passing on to their children.  I suppose it is the tendency of all humanity to abuse authority- and surprise that is exactly what it says in the scriptures. 

But man, proud man,
Drest in a little brief authority,
Most ignorant of what he ’s most assured,
His glassy essence, like an angry ape,
Plays such fantastic tricks before high heaven
As make the angels weep.--Measure for Measure (2.2.117)

[consiglieri]

14 hours ago, jwhitlock said:

From The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.339-40

 

As I noted, context is everything. If you cherry pick standalone quotes, you won't understand where he was coming from. And President Kimball both understood and taught the necessity of Christ in the process and that man cannot gain salvation or exaltation without the power of Christ.

 

 

You do know that what you quoted from President Kimball supports my position, don't you?

I said that the 20th Century Mormon teaching in this regard was that Jesus's role was simply to forgive us of our sins when we goof up, but the onus to become perfect is upon ourselves, by our own will power.

Your quote corroborates this.