Profound Words On Faith

[Sp0ckrates]

JLHProff: Do you think the truth might be that Alma is describing something much less certain than trust? The reason I ask is he says says:

[17] Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

[18] Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

(Alma 32)

"For if a man knoweth a thing, he hath no cause to believe..." I mean, if I know without a doubt something is true, then I suppose I have unwavering trust in this knowledge. So am I correct in understanding Alma to be saying a person cannot believe what he or she knows?

Edited May 30, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

TO ANYONE:

So I have this odd theory about how faith might be dormant. It might not be what Alma meant, but it could make for some fascinating discussion. You be the judge.

I got the idea from thinking about something Socrates believed. It was the reason he invented the Socratic Method of asking questions. He believed wisdom is dormant in everyone. I'll briefly explain:

In Plato's Meno and elsewhere, Socrates makes the point that the truth cannot be taught. It can only be remembered. He demonstrates this by asking a child questions about a mathematical problem. Without being told the answer, the child comes up with the answers to solve the problem on his own. Socrates then explains that he did not teach the child how to do something he never knew before. So he must have already knew, but had forgotten. By asking him questions he remembered the wisdom that was previously dormant within his soul.

So my thought (and it's probably a fantasy) is that a dormant faith might be like Socrates' dormant wisdom. Each person does not need to be taught to have faith. The faith to believe is dormant within every one of us and needs only to be awakened, somehow.

So one might ask Socrates: How can it be that one has all wisdom dormant in him? Aren't we born as infants who have no wisdom at all, and so we have to learn wisdom as we mature?

Socrates explained to his followers his theory: There is one God who is the source of all wisdom. Before a soul enters the body of an infant, it lives in the presence of this all-wise God, and so the soul knows what God knows. But once the soul finds itself inhabiting the body of an infant, it's undeveloped mind forgets the wisdom it knew before. Yet the wisdom is not lost, it is merely forgotten and dormant. All one has to do is remember it to awaken it.

So compare dormant wisdom to dormant faith, and we come to this inference: Before a soul enters the body of an infant, it lives in the presence of this all-wise God, and so the soul knows God exists and how to obey him. But once the soul finds itself inhabiting the body of an infant, it's undeveloped mind forgets the faith it had before. Yet the faith is not lost, it is merely forgotten and dormant. All one has to do is remember it to awaken it.

Now, as I said, I'm not disagreeing with anyone on what Alma meant. I'm simply explaining why I originally thought Alma's words were profound and mysterious. I'm thinking it would be something fascinating to discuss, even if it is not true. I'd also like to know why it is not true, if someone would like to explain. I tend to give each new idea the benefit of the doubt until I find a sound, logical argument to disbelieve it.

Thoughts, anyone?

Edited May 30, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

I guess this is not the place to ask such questions. Hey, thanks again to each of you who replied.

[Bobbieaware]

I guess this is not the place to ask such questions. Hey, thanks again to each of you who replied.

Very interesting perspective. Either my husband or I will get back to you on this when we have time. Gotta run!

[St. Bookmark]

Great response

[St. Bookmark]

Great response Faith is always I motion growing dimmer of brighter we must always keep at it

[St. Bookmark]

Great response Faith is always I motion growing dimmer of brighter we must always keep at it That is why it is a tree reference to keep watering the plant we call faith

[strappinglad]

Here is a photo of a petroglyph. It is evidence. We do not have knowledge of what the artist was drawing. Science confirms that it was drawn centuries ago. It may be of a cow with a very long tail. It may be of something that contradicts current belief. Again, it is evidence of something not seen. I have faith in my belief in what it depicts. My faith colors my world view.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=dinosaurs+and+man+together&rlz=1T4ACGW_en___CA437&tbm=isch&imgil=FAuCvR3RMYG75M%253A%253Bwwa3e5VdnHJ8UM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.apologeticspress.org%25252Farticle%25252F2416&source=iu&pf=m&fir=FAuCvR3RMYG75M%253A%252Cwwa3e5VdnHJ8UM%252C_&usg=__fWda2V-XjKRPQk0JWrczKtAgaoA%3D&biw=1244&bih=553&ved=0CCcQyjc&ei=7XdqVcPtNIWVNuvfgdAJ#imgrc=FAuCvR3RMYG75M%253A%3Bwwa3e5VdnHJ8UM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fap.lanexdev.com%252Fuser_images%252Fimage%252Frr%252F2008%252F0803-9.jpg%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.apologeticspress.org%252Farticle%252F2416%3B300%3B229

Edited May 31, 2015 by strappinglad

[Calm]

I guess this is not the place to ask such questions. Hey, thanks again to each of you who replied.

You have enough posts to start a thread in the main forum, General discussions.  You  may attract more attention there.

[Sp0ckrates]

Very interesting perspective. Either my husband or I will get back to you on this when we have time. Gotta run!

Bobbieaware: Thanks, but the idea is not really my own. It's essentially Socrates', so I cannot take credit for it. I just put his idea in a different context. Socrates I believe would also say the idea, if true was not his own. For he believed all true ideas (or wisdom) originate from God alone. Any new idea we dream up, he would say, is something we learned from him before we were born, and only now remember.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

Here is a photo of a petroglyph. It is evidence. We do not have knowledge of what the artist was drawing. Science confirms that it was drawn centuries ago. It may be of a cow with a very long tail. It may be of something that contradicts current belief. Again, it is evidence of something not seen. I have faith in my belief in what it depicts. My faith colors my world view.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=dinosaurs+and+man+together&rlz=1T4ACGW_en___CA437&tbm=isch&imgil=FAuCvR3RMYG75M%253A%253Bwwa3e5VdnHJ8UM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.apologeticspress.org%25252Farticle%25252F2416&source=iu&pf=m&fir=FAuCvR3RMYG75M%253A%252Cwwa3e5VdnHJ8UM%252C_&usg=__fWda2V-XjKRPQk0JWrczKtAgaoA%3D&biw=1244&bih=553&ved=0CCcQyjc&ei=7XdqVcPtNIWVNuvfgdAJ#imgrc=FAuCvR3RMYG75M%253A%3Bwwa3e5VdnHJ8UM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fap.lanexdev.com%252Fuser_images%252Fimage%252Frr%252F2008%252F0803-9.jpg%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.apologeticspress.org%252Farticle%252F2416%3B300%3B229

Strappinglad: Thanks for the fascinating photo. Not sure if it is a fake, photo shopped or real. But isn't saying the photo is evidence of your object of faith different from saying faith is the evidence of the object of your faith?

[Sp0ckrates]

You have enough posts to start a thread in the main forum, General discussions. You may attract more attention there.

Perhaps I will, thanks Calmoriah.

[Sp0ckrates]

Great response Faith is always I motion growing dimmer of brighter we must always keep at it That is why it is a tree reference to keep watering the plant we call faith

St. Bookmark: Love the analogy. So if faith is a tree, I suppose a useful faith is a tree bearing much fruit. So would a dormant faith be a tree that stops bearing fruit? Or would a dormant faith be a seed that is not yet a tree?

[Sp0ckrates]

Started a discussion on the topic, here:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/65430-wondering-about-dormant-faith/

Edited May 31, 2015 by Sp0ckrates