Profound Words On Faith

[Sp0ckrates]

Hi. A Mormon friend of mine brought this passage to my attention:

And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

(Alma 32:34)

I find this might be the most profound and mysterious description of faith I've ever read. But I want to be sure. Please tell me: What is a dormant faith? How is it different from a non-dormant faith?

[teddyaware]

Hi. A Mormon friend of mine brought this passage to my attention:

And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

(Alma 32:34)

I find this might be the most profound and mysterious description of faith I've ever read. But I want to be sure. Please tell me: What is a dormant faith? How is it different from a non-dormant faith?

 

It's very simple. The Epistle to the Hebrews says that "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." So when an individual actually sees for himself the very thing he beforehand had not yet seen but "hoped for," he no longer merely has faith that the thing he hoped for is true but now knows for a surety it is true. Sure knowledge replaces a belief in the thing that previously had not yet been seen.

 

For example, I'm an inventor and when I get an idea for a new apparatus, though I have not yet produced a working prototype of the envisioned device, my store of knowledge, experience and past successes cause me to believe the new invention will work effectively as envisioned, before the prototype is ever built.  When a prototype is actually built and tested, and if it works as I'd hoped it would, I no longer have faith the apparatus will work but now know for sure it does work. So while my faith may become dormant with regard to a particular finished invention -- after I've built it and seen it function as planned -- rather than destroy my faith my sure knowledge of my past successes and most recent successes increases my faith and confidence as I purse new and greater creative projects. 

 

If you now will go back and read the entire chapter of Alma 32, you will see that the term dormancy is being used in a positive sense, as a synonym for obtaining a sure knowledge that something is true. When the prophet Alma says "faith os dormant in that thing," it means the individual has gained a sure knowledge of one specific thing, it's not intended to mean a sure knowledge of specific spiritual truths will decrease one's degree of faith. Quite the contrary. In fact, it's because Christ knew for a surety the truth so many spiritual things that he had the degree of faith necessary to enable Him to walk on water and raise the dead before performing either of those miracles for the first time.

 

As a word of advice: it's a good thing to not to be negative and doubtful when investigating the LDS Church. If one investigates the Church with a negative frame of mind, he'll not often be able to come to understand the teachings of the LDS Church for himself. If one keeps a negative attitude, he'll constantly be coming back here asking for answers to questions that he otherwise would be able to obtain on his own.

Edited May 29, 2015 by teddyaware

[Sp0ckrates]

Teddy: Thanks for the advice. My apologies for being slow to understand, but I'm not sure what you mean by negative. If you mean being close minded, don't worry. I tend to keep an open mind. Also tell me what you mean by doubt. If you mean being cynical, I don't believe I ever am. I'm a philosopher in the good sense of the word. I'm not into partisan politics or partisan religion. If you mean I should not be skeptical, I tend to be always wonder if what and why I believe is true, so I am always revaluating my beliefs. I used to be a militant Evangelical, but no more. I guess I started having an open mind when I first took Socrates' words to heart:

 

I have long been wondering at my own wisdom. I cannot trust myself, and I think I ought to stop and ask, "What am I saying?" For there is nothing worse than self-deception, where the deceiver is always at home and always with you. It's quite terrible!

(Cratylus)

 

But please tell me: Would you say I'm being negative or doubtful in a way I should not be?

[Sp0ckrates]

Teddyaware: I hear what you are saying about a dormant faith. Keeping an open mind that it is true, and still wondering why it is true. Please let me ask a follow up question: Both Paul and Joseph Smith saw Christ with their own eyes and spoke to him. Does that mean they both had a dormant faith in Christ?

[Buckeye]

I read "dormant" to mean that faith has ceased because of knowledge. You could use other phrases such as "mooted" or "swallowed-up." You could even apply positive phrases such as "fulfilled" or "completed." In any case, the principle is that faith ends when knowledge is obtained. As an example, grandma gives you a seed and tells you it will grow tomatoes. "Faith" is what happens when you plant and nurture the seed. Once it sprouts and you see the fruit, you no longer have faith. Now you know. If it is a tomato, then your faith was placed in something true, and your faith in grandma grows. If it is not a tomato, then your faith was placed in something false, and your faith in grandma diminishes.

[Sp0ckrates]

Buckeye: Thanks. I apprehend what you are saying. Not sure I comprehend why it is true. Please tell me: Did Paul and Joseph Smith--who both met Jesus in person--both have a dormant faith?

[Sp0ckrates]

Buckeye: Sorry for posting twice. I'm new, so I have not yet been given the ability to edit my posts.

I tend to think of faith as synonymous with trust. So if I said, "Buckeye, I believe in you. You can do it! I have faith in you." I would be saying I trust you.

Now if you succeeded at the good task I encouraged you to do, I'd say, "Well done, Buckeye! I knew you could do it. Keep up the good work. Now more than ever I have faith in you." I would then have more trust in you to continue to succeed at the good work you are doing.

So are you saying my faith in you in the first case is less dormant than my faith in you in the second case?

[Sp0ckrates]

Buckeye: Also, are you from Ohio? I live in Indiana, near the Ohio state line.

[JLHPROF]

Buckeye: Thanks. I apprehend what you are saying. Not sure I comprehend why it is true. Please tell me: Did Paul and Joseph Smith--who both met Jesus in person--both have a dormant faith?

 

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

Very simply, once something IS seen its existence is no longer faith.  But that doesn't remove other faith areas.

Paul and Joseph Smith saw Christ in person - they no longer needed faith that he existed, or that he was what he had claimed in life.

However there were many other areas where they still needed faith.

Faith that a particular prayer was going to be answered.  Faith in the preservation of their lives.  Sometimes their faith was more about the things they hoped for, not the things they had seen/not seen.

 

Faith is not limited to one aspect of our lives and beliefs.

[Buckeye]

I'm from Cleveland. Often drive through Indiana to see family in Chicago.

 

JLHPROF gave some good additional detail. I'll add this. There is no such thing as "faith" in the abstract. Faith has to be attached to something or someone. Faith in God, faith in grandma, faith that the sun will rise, faith that a college degree will pay off. Sometimes the "thing" is finite and so you get a full knowledge of whether your faith was well placed. The tomato example I gave is one example. Sometimes the "thing" is long-term or even eternal - such as faith in grandma or God. So in those instances your reason to continue to believing goes up or down depending on the results of their counsel.

 

To answer your first question, once Paul or Joseph meets Jesus, then it could be said that their faith is dormant as to Christ's existence. But they could still have faith for other things related to Jesus that are not proved by his existence alone - for example, whether he can move mountains and calm the seas.

[Sp0ckrates]

JLHProff:

Thanks for the reply.

Please let me know: To whom is faith the evidence? Is it to the one having the faith, or to the one observing the one having the faith?

My thought: When I see a person taking great personal risk to obey God, that is evidence to me of his faith. If he succeeds against great odds, that is evidence to me that the one in whom he put his faith is trustworthy.

Yet, I am not the one having the faith that convinces me. The evidence is not in my own faith, it's in the life of the Mormon believer. So I suppose this might be what the author of Hebrews is talking about. But am I incorrect?

Edited May 29, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

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[Sp0ckrates]

Buckeye: Thanks for replying. I've driven past Cleveland many a time on trips to visit family in New York state. Maybe we've passed each other on the road?

Yes, faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed, as is trust. I could not agree more.

So am I correct in thinking you agree that faith is essentially trust in that which cannot be seen?

Edited May 29, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

Sweet! I figured out how to get the edit button to show.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[ERayR]

Dormant means no longer used.  Once you know something for sure(have proof) you are no longer using faith (i.e. it becomes dormant)

[teddyaware]

Teddy: Thanks for the advice. My apologies for being slow to understand, but I'm not sure what you mean by negative. If you mean being close minded, don't worry. I tend to keep an open mind. Also tell me what you mean by doubt. If you mean being cynical, I don't believe I ever am. I'm a philosopher in the good sense of the word. I'm not into partisan politics or partisan religion. If you mean I should not be skeptical, I tend to be always wonder if what and why I believe is true, so I am always revaluating my beliefs. I used to be a militant Evangelical, but no more. I guess I started having an open mind when I first took Socrates' words to heart:

 

 

Teddy: Thanks for the advice. My apologies for being slow to understand, but I'm not sure what you mean by negative. If you mean being close minded, don't worry. I tend to keep an open mind. Also tell me what you mean by doubt. If you mean being cynical, I don't believe I ever am. I'm a philosopher in the good sense of the word. I'm not into partisan politics or partisan religion. If you mean I should not be skeptical, I tend to be always wonder if what and why I believe is true, so I am always revaluating my beliefs. I used to be a militant Evangelical, but no more. I guess I started having an open mind when I first took Socrates' words to heart:

 

I have long been wondering at my own wisdom. I cannot trust myself, and I think I ought to stop and ask, "What am I saying?" For there is nothing worse than self-deception, where the deceiver is always at home and always with you. It's quite terrible!

(Cratylus)

 

But please tell me: Would you say I'm being negative or doubtful in a way I should not be?

 

The advice was general. There are so many non-LDS people who come on this board with a negative ant-Mormon attitudes, and since you are new here I thought it a good idea to encourage you to not fall into the same trap as the others.

 

Tough Paul knew Christ existed, his continued faith in Christ was still essential because Paul himself was a work of faith in progress and he had not yet attained perfection through his faith in Christ's transformative power. While Paul envisioned himself as a disciple who one day would be made perfect in Christ, he "pressed on toward the mark" of that perfection through dynamic faith in the Saviour. Knowing Christ exists is one thing, being fully transformed and perfected by faith in Him is another.

I have long been wondering at my own wisdom. I cannot trust myself, and I think I ought to stop and ask, "What am I saying?" For there is nothing worse than self-deception, where the deceiver is always at home and always with you. It's quite terrible!

(Cratylus)

 

But please tell me: Would you say I'm being negative or doubtful in a way I should not be?

[JLHPROF]

JLHProff:

Thanks for the reply.

Please let me know: To whom is faith the evidence? Is it to the one having the faith, or to the one observing the one having the faith?

 

 

Both: D&C 46: 13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

 14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

So am I correct in thinking you agree that faith is essentially trust in that which cannot be seen?

 

Almost.  Faith is trust in the evidence of the unseen.  Not blind faith, but faith based on what is all around.  I personally see evidence for God throughout my life.  An atheist would disagree that it is evidence, but that is what faith is about.

[Sp0ckrates]

Both: D&C 46: 13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

Yes, some believe they only need to put faith in who Jesus is and what he did. Others believe they also need to put faith in what he said.

Almost. Faith is trust in the evidence of the unseen. Not blind faith, but faith based on what is all around. I personally see evidence for God throughout my life. An atheist would disagree that it is evidence, but that is what faith is about.

So then, I guess you are saying something was lost in the translation or transmission of the book of Hebrews--namely, the words "trust in".

[Sp0ckrates]

Teddyaware: It's all in the tags. Where there is a [ QUOTE ] tag at the beginning of what I said, you can type a [/ QUOTE ] tag at the end. I like to type the tags myself, rather than mess with the multi-quote thing.

[Sp0ckrates]

Teddyaware: Yes, I think I see. Paul met face-to-face with Christ after he rose from the dead, so he knew Jesus was alive and did not need to believe this by faith. Yet he still was not perfect, so not seeing his future perfection, he had to believe he would become so by faith.

So maybe this is the truth? All faith is trust, but not all trust is faith. An example: Before meeting Christ, Joseph Smith might have had faith in Christ, if he trusted in what he did not see. After meeting Christ in person, he still had trust in the idea Christ was alive, but this was not faith. It was a more certain and perfect kind of trust. Do you suppose we might say his faith was replace by certainty?

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[Sp0ckrates]

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[Sp0ckrates]

Dormant means no longer used. Once you know something for sure(have proof) you are no longer using faith (i.e. it becomes dormant)

Yes, that helps, ERayR. Thank you. So would you say a dormant faith is a small faith, rather than a great one? I mean, a dormant cancer is potentially a great threat to the one who has it, but is actually a small threat. A cure for cancer that stays dormant and unused in a laboratory has potential to be used for great effect, but actually has a small effect on the world.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[JLHPROF]

So then, I guess you are saying something was lost in the translation or transmission of the book of Hebrews--namely, the words "trust in".

 

No, I think that is pretty much what the text says.  Faith is the evidence of things not seen.

Seems pretty clear to me.

[Sp0ckrates]

No, I think that is pretty much what the text says. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.

Seems pretty clear to me.

Thanks. Sorry for asking so many simple questions. It's not quite clear to me, yet. What I wonder is what kind of evidence faith is. Is it trust, or should we say it is a different kind of evidence?

[Sp0ckrates]

Teddyaware, Buckeye and ERayR: I'm grateful for your helping me think this through and you patience. As Socrates said, "I have, it seems a tedious way of asking a simple question." If you feel like continuing to helping me discover the truth about faith, that would be great. If you have other things to attend to, that's OK, too. The insightful comments you already provided are much appreciated.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Sp0ckrates