Russell C McGregor Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 I full well understand that active is different that faithful. That's not the point. His post essentially called people that believed it could be doctrinally possible "unfaithful". It was the definition of the No True Scotsman fallacy. I have started a new thread on this topic, so as not to derail this one. Suffice it to say, you are wrong.
Daniel2 Posted April 29, 2015 Author Posted April 29, 2015 (edited) Arguments were heard today in the SCOTUS. I heard snippets on NPR. If anyone finds an audio recording or transcripts from them please post a link. What I did hear was pretty great.The NY Times gave a good summary:http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/04/29/us/supreme-court-same-sex-marriage.html?referrer=The Audio is split into two separate 90 minute sessions, one for each of the questions before the court:Audio for the first question, whether the 14th Amendment guarantees marriage rights to all American citizens, including same-sex couples:http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/audio/2014/14-556-q1Audio for the second question, whether states must recognize same-sex marriages from other states:http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/audio/2014/14-556-q2I have been tending to a birthday celebration for my daughter's friend today, and have yet to listen to them.I would love to hear others' thoughts when you have time, and I will likewise share mine. Edited April 29, 2015 by Daniel2
VideoGameJunkie Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 All anyone should care about on this subject is what does God want. Does God want marriage only to be between a man and a woman or does He support same sex marriage. Our church leaders have said we have to protect the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman. Shouldn't we let God do the deciding for us? I mean agency is great and everything, but shouldn't we try to get it right? I don't want to be in the wrong on this issue so I haven't participated either or.
Brian 2.0 Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 All anyone should care about on this subject is what does God want. Does God want marriage only to be between a man and a woman or does He support same sex marriage. Our church leaders have said we have to protect the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman. Shouldn't we let God do the deciding for us? I mean agency is great and everything, but shouldn't we try to get it right? I don't want to be in the wrong on this issue so I haven't participated either or.What's God wants globally vs the law of the land could be different. God may not recognize same sex marriage but that doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't want it to be an option for people to choose. Would God want the U.S. to pass a law that adultery is illegal? Perhaps he doesn't care about if that is a law or not. Perhaps he doesn't care if same sex marriage is legal in the US or not.
carbon dioxide Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 So people decry you that you are wrong. That gay marriage will happen in the temple. The interesting thing is, were is the evidence that this is going to happen? All I have seen is the repeated "It is not going to change" form church leaders. It is no where in scripture. In fact the opposite is in scripture that homosexuality (the act) is an abomination.It will not happen. Even if the government and the law could force the Church to perform them, I think the Church would probably close the temples down first. 2
carbon dioxide Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 With gay marriage likely becoming legal nationwide and in other countries, will the Church issue a directive to missionaries to not teach any married gay couples? There really is no reason for the missionaries to have any discussions with them if they gay couple was not willing to get a divorce first.
carbon dioxide Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 (edited) What's God wants globally vs the law of the land could be different. God may not recognize same sex marriage but that doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't want it to be an option for people to choose.Would God want the U.S. to pass a law that adultery is illegal? Perhaps he doesn't care about if that is a law or not. Perhaps he doesn't care if same sex marriage is legal in the US or not.God may not like some things that are made legal by man but in the end it does not matter since God judges all according to eternal laws. Regardless of what the Supreme Court does, gay marriage may be legal in the US for a short season. When Christ comes and sweeps the wicked off the earth, gay will cease globally and never to rear its head again for eternity. At that point it will be clearly established that those who were for gay marriage were on the wrong side of history. Edited April 29, 2015 by carbon dioxide 1
VideoGameJunkie Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 We will never see gay sealings in the temples. If that happens, then I dunno what to say.
sjdawg Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 All anyone should care about on this subject is what does God want. Does God want marriage only to be between a man and a woman or does He support same sex marriage. Our church leaders have said we have to protect the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman. Shouldn't we let God do the deciding for us? I mean agency is great and everything, but shouldn't we try to get it right? I don't want to be in the wrong on this issue so I haven't participated either or. Whose God? mormon God? Catholic God? Muslim God? United Church of Christ God? Of course I'm being facetious and if God exists there is only 1 God. However my point is that freedom of religion and the interests of religion should not be part of this decision. Some religions support gay marriage. other's oppose it. this is not a religious decision. This is a legal decision. 2
carbon dioxide Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 We will never see gay sealings in the temples. If that happens, then I dunno what to say.If we see gay marriage in the temples, we are back to the first century when the money changers were in the temple except the bad situation would be now on steroids. At best I would never enter a temple again. I probably would resign my membership.
carbon dioxide Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 Furthermore, the scriptures say precisely nothing about gay marriage. I does say a little bit against "homosexual behavior" but I don't see anyone trying to ban that. Why? Gay love is fine, but once you put a ring on it, it's an abomination? Perhaps the reason the scriptures do not address gay marriage directly is that there was no reason to. Even up to 20 years ago, few Americans would discuss the subject because the concept was simply too absurd to consider. The concept is still absurd. The only reason we are discussing it is that society continues to go down the drain with increased wickedness. Expect this to continue and only accelerate with the next nonsense. Right now it seems to be the transgendered issue. 1
Gray Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 God may not like some things that are made legal by man but in the end it does not matter since God judges all according to eternal laws. Regardless of what the Supreme Court does, gay marriage may be legal in the US for a short season. When Christ comes and sweeps the wicked off the earth, gay will cease globally and never to rear its head again for eternity. At that point it will be clearly established that those who were for gay marriage were on the wrong side of history. And this is why gay marriage will not only win in the courts, but in the hearts and minds of the majority of saints and other conservative Christian groups eventually. 3
california boy Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 Perhaps the reason the scriptures do not address gay marriage directly is that there was no reason to. Even up to 20 years ago, few Americans would discuss the subject because the concept was simply too absurd to consider. The concept is still absurd. The only reason we are discussing it is that society continues to go down the drain with increased wickedness. Expect this to continue and only accelerate with the next nonsense. Right now it seems to be the transgendered issue. Which is why we can not look to the scriptures as an answer to understanding the will of God. How does God feel about celibacy rather than marriage? That also seems to go against the Plan of Salvation. Another question one has to ask that are not in the scriptures. 2
thesometimesaint Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 Which is why we can not look to the scriptures as an answer to understanding the will of God. How does God feel about celibacy rather than marriage? That also seems to go against the Plan of Salvation. Another question one has to ask that are not in the scriptures. We are under no obligation to marry if no appropriate suitor is forthcoming. Any righteous desire of our hearts will be fulfilled if not in this life, it will be in the next.
tonie Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 God may not like some things that are made legal by man but in the end it does not matter since God judges all according to eternal laws. Regardless of what the Supreme Court does, gay marriage may be legal in the US for a short season. When Christ comes and sweeps the wicked off the earth, gay will cease globally and never to rear its head again for eternity. At that point it will be clearly established that those who were for gay marriage were on the wrong side of history. D&C 58:22 Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.
tonie Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 I wish Scalia had more time to flesh out his line of questioning. I do not understand why he thinks a rulling in favor of ssm would mean clergy could not be exempt from performing marriage. Scalia cited "Congress shall make no law..." but Congress has created many laws which exempt religion. Also there are currently on the books in many State law which exempt religion. So I am unsure of his point or concern. As, I recall a Justice correctly pointed out that we are a Constitutional Democracy. States have primacy over marriage, that is without question. States do not have primacy over anything to violate the 14th Amendment of the United States. Thus a balance will have to be found, which would mean States regulated marriage within confines of the 14th Amendment. Another line of questioning was about changing the "Institution of Marriage", that is a distraction to the 14th Amendment questions. The line of question caused me think of when the Supremene Court established "separate but equal" in 1896, with its ruling in Plessy v. Ferguson. As for the "Institution of marriage", US society has changed it many times throughout our history.
rockpond Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 We are under no obligation to marry if no appropriate suitor is forthcoming. Any righteous desire of our hearts will be fulfilled if not in this life, it will be in the next.I recognize that what you've stated here is consistent with current church teachings. But I am curious how you reconcile that statement with D&C 132:16 which seems to say that if one doesn't marry in this life, they won't be able to in the next and will be angel left to minister to those who are worthy of more glory?
rockpond Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 I've only read excerpts but what was interesting (and new) to me was Justice Ginsburg bringing up the Head and Master Laws (deemed unconstitutional in 1981 Kirchberg v Feenstra) as an example of how we have changed the definition of marriage even more recently than Loving v Virginia.
Mystery Meat Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 After reading parts of the Oral Arguments (which, admittedly, are never good indicators) I must say that I think this is going to be closer than I had previously thought. I still think they will rule in favor of SSM, but I am not quite as confident as I was even a week ago.
VideoGameJunkie Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 It's funny. My mind is telling me to support same sex marriage, but my religious heart is telling me to not support it. Do I listen to my brain or my heart?
thesometimesaint Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 I recognize that what you've stated here is consistent with current church teachings. But I am curious how you reconcile that statement with D&C 132:16 which seems to say that if one doesn't marry in this life, they won't be able to in the next and will be angel left to minister to those who are worthy of more glory? As my mom used to tell me "You have to kiss a lot of toads before you find your princess". I don't believe God is going to refuse a blessing just because we didn't know where to find it, as long as we're looking.
rockpond Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 It's funny. My mind is telling me to support same sex marriage, but my religious heart is telling me to not support it. Do I listen to my brain or my heart?When I can't get my "intellect" and spiritual promptings to agree I give priority to what the Spirit is telling me (assuming that's what you meant by religious heart).
VideoGameJunkie Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 Ya religious heart is spirit. But my brain says everyone in this country deserves equal rights and freedom. So I'm torn.
Russell C McGregor Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 This is the same point you were trying to emphasize some days back when your other username was permanently banned from the boards. This statement is demonstrably incorrect (I testify to you of my intimate knowledge that there is at least one faithful LDS who believes same sex temple marriage is both doctrinally possible and desirable -- me). Anonymous testimony carries no weight. Sorry. But we better let it rest lest we lose you completely from the boards. I see what you did there, Rockpond. And I must say, you did it very well. I admire your -- skill.
california boy Posted April 29, 2015 Posted April 29, 2015 An interesting article on one of the points Justice Roberts brought up yesterday. Gender Bias Issue Could Tip Chief Justice Roberts Into Ruling for Gay Marriage 1
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