Isis Not Evil?

[Investigating]

No matter what you may think of Denver Snuffer, or the owner of this blog, I was surprised at the amount of criticism they got for suggesting that ISIS is evil, and that we should pray that Baghdad doesn't fall.

 

 

Log

February 22, 2015 at 10:51 am

Let me explain why I don’t find you persuasive on this point, at least in part: we’re being asked to take sides, in prayer at least, in what amounts to a civil war.

Why shouldn’t I have charity, as you have put it, on ISIS against Iraq? Why shouldn’t I pray, “God, please bless ISIS?”

 

Log

February 22, 2015 at 12:07 pm

Have you talked to any of them, Tim? Do you have knowledge, or are you reacting to reports and rumors?

And why should the modern nation-state of Israel be of special concern? What of Palestine?

Do you not see the can of worms that opens up once we accept the principle that it is just or right to meddle in the internal affairs of others? Would you want them doing it to you?

 

Aotearoa Abinadi

February 22, 2015 at 11:17 pm

I think that most of you forget that one of the biggest terror groups in the world is the USA. How many years now have they fought on foreign soil, killing people while fighting aggressive attacking wars. Offensive wars will only lead to more animosity towards America, but they never seem to learn the lesson.

Also things are prophesied to get real bad in America as Satan takes the attack to the future of the 2 Jerusalem’s, and the fight wont focus to Jerusalem until it has been taken to the New Jerusalem first.

With the future being natural disasters, chemical/biological warfare and enemy troops causing blood to run bridal deep, I think praying for America should be on the cards and not just Baghdad.

 

MarkinPNW

February 24, 2015 at 12:18 am

Yes, beheading with a knife is barbaric and uncivilized. How much more modern and civilized it is to kill people with drones, cruise missiles, and disease and starvation through militarily enforced sanctions. Somehow, all the carnage caused by these “civilized” means just does not make it onto our mainstream news outlets, whether “conservative” or “liberal”.

If we are going to pray for anyone, perhaps we need to pray for the victims of all of these barbarities, and not just the ones victimized by SIS

 

Log

February 23, 2015 at 12:41 pm

In case people are confused about what I’m talking about – for some reason, people don’t ask me but rather assume they know – why was it not sufficient to say something like this?

“Denver Snuffer has written that God says all the world should pray that Baghdad not fall. I invite all my readers to join in this prayer.”

Indeed, that’s all that needed to be said. Right?

Instead, and I do not fault Tim’s intentions, what was written was a whole lot of geopolitics which, unless I’m greatly mistaken, Tim has no firsthand knowledge of, and Tim’s intent seems to have been to persuade others to take sides in what amounts to a civil war so as to make the request to pray for Baghdad to not fall seem not so much dependent upon Snuffer’s word and thus drive up participation in such a prayer – or so it seems to me. I feel pretty confident in thinking Tim is operating on reports and rumors of what’s occurring in Iraq, since I’ve seen Tim’s workplace and how he spends his time – typically not in Iraq. Now, that’s all well and good except there are multiple sides to anything, and in a world filled with propaganda, reports, rumors, and lies, nothing seems trustworthy.

We don’t have to take sides according to the word spoken by Snuffer; merely pray that Baghdad not fall. We have to take sides, according to the word spoken by Tim, because ISIS is evil. In this, Tim seems be making what seems to him to be a straightforward judgement that seems to him should be manifestly obvious to the most casual of observer – except nothing in this world is straightforward. Were the Lamanites evil? Well, they were described as wicked, and this because they were taught by the traditions of their fathers to hate the Nephites. Did God love them less? I recall the words of the Nephites to Aaron and his brethren when they proposed to teach the word to the Lamanites – and I think everyone might profit from remembering them.

So, did Tim (and Adrian Larsen) help, or hurt, the cause? Opinions may vary. But there is a principle I believe causes harm when not observed – don’t add to nor subtract from the word of the Lord. If your additions are found to be without merit, or of questionable merit, the persuading power of the word of the Lord is weakened thereby. I’ve seen this with respect to tithing, the word of wisdom, and other teachings besides. I’m sure you have, too.

I think that we have an example here.

8 And when they had ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken–

nothing varying from the words which Jesus had spoken

–behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus.

3 Nephi 19:8

In any event, you may note that I never said “don’t pray,” I only asked questions. You may also note that I never said “I’m right.” There is no such thing as “right” in a world full of self-directing and self-defining autonomous beings. There are only goals and actions consistent or inconsistent with those goals. That’s the agency we are afforded.

We each receive according to our desires.

 

Log

February 23, 2015 at 12:45 pm

“Right,” that is, in matters of value.

 

Log

February 23, 2015 at 3:13 pm

Even if it were real, it wouldn’t matter; we don’t get involved unless asked to by God (D&C 98:33–38).

But yes, the whole world can be deceived.

Revelation 18:23

23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Propaganda is an age-old art: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/48.1?lang=eng#primary

As to when you decide to trust others, I suppose that entirely depends on how important you feel it is to not be deceived.

 

Log

February 23, 2015 at 7:13 pm

A few more to put together.

Mormon 8:20

20 Behold what the scripture says—man shall not smite, neither shall he judge; for judgment is mine, saith the Lord, and vengeance is mine also, and I will repay.

If we are yielding our hearts to God, we don’t get to say who the evil are. If we have charity, we don’t want to.

Mormon 4:5

5 But, behold, the judgments of God will overtake the wicked; and it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished; for it is the wicked that stir up the hearts of the children of men unto bloodshed.

Please note who is punishing the wicked and stirring up hearts unto bloodshed.

What should our attitude be towards our enemies?

Matthew 5:43–45

43 ¶Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

That is the attitude of one who has charity towards his enemies.

So, unless God directs otherwise, we don’t judge, and we don’t intervene.

Again, God’s ways are not men’s ways, and his rules are not the ones the world operates by.

 

Log

February 24, 2015 at 8:46 am

Charity is impartial.

Fear / hatred is partial.

 

Karl

February 24, 2015 at 2:33 pm

Now THIS is an interesting discussion. What exactly is the morality of the worldwide intervention the USA has taken since 1917 in nation after nation. WW1 to Make the World Safe for Democracy, WW2 to stop Fascism, and then every intervention since WW2, all UNDECLARED: Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan. Nibley warned of endless “brushfire” wars all fomented by the military/industrial folks, and all built on the principle of power and GAIN (the Mahon principle). With Log, I follow the BOM teaching that the ONLY justified military action is strictly for DEFENSIVE purposes only. Tim, you need to realize the context of what is happening in Iraq: our offensive intervention is wholly unjustified, at least from a gospel standpoint. After 15 years of destruction and carnage, all provoked and agitated by the USA, we finally declared “victory” and withdrew. What does anyone think was going to happen there? The power vacuum is just too tempting: the country is now fragmented into groups competing for power. And which cowboys have white hats, and which black? But, make no mistake about this: this is all about OIL & resources (at least from the USA point of view): if the ISIS group gets too far along, you will see an American invasion (including ground troops), as there has never been since WW2. That’s the real danger, because the situation threatens to ignite WW3 (with the US taking center stage). So, I would say: go ahead and pray for these regions, but realize that just as the Lord can only bless individuals to the level of their willingness to comply to gospel principles, the same holds true for groups and nations as well. Frankly, I don’t know who the good guys and bad guys are in that region anymore. I think all actors, including the USA, are knee-deep in blood.

http://latterdaycommentary.com/2015/02/22/o-babylon-we-bid-thee-farewell/

 

Does anyone else find these sentiments as surprising as I do?

 

This would be a minority view here, wouldn't it?

[Storm Rider]

I find them surprising and extremely ignorant of what ISIS, ISIL, IS, etc. actually is and means to the Middle East and the world at large. 

 

I think that there is a lot of reasons for these individuals having these types of head in the sand ideas, but that is a different thread.  

 

IS is a danger to all modern communities and societies.  Their sole objective is to return to the same form of government operated at the time of Mohammad and immediately afterwards.  This is not a civil war or a disagreement between two peoples.  It is a religious war that sees the entire world as fair game.

[Kenngo1969]

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2015/02/15/isis-threat-not-existential/

[thesometimesaint]

I find them surprising and extremely ignorant of what ISIS, ISIL, IS, etc. actually is and means to the Middle East and the world at large. 

 

I think that there is a lot of reasons for these individuals having these types of head in the sand ideas, but that is a different thread.  

 

IS is a danger to all modern communities and societies.  Their sole objective is to return to the same form of government operated at the time of Mohammad and immediately afterwards.  This is not a civil war or a disagreement between two peoples.  It is a religious war that sees the entire world as fair game.

 

That is exactly what ISIS wants, to make it a Holy War between Islam and Christianity. Another dirty stinking pile of death, destruction, lies, and distortions with at least 2 billion lives under threat.

 

Tell me something. In WW2 was it Protestant Christians in the US and England against the Catholic Christians in Germany, Italy, and Shintoism in Imperial Japan, or was it was war against murderous thugs in the government of Germany, Italy, and Japan?

[The Nehor]

I have no problem with praying for ISIS members but it would be more in the vein of "Please bless them with the clarity of mind to see their errors and repent."

We should probably treat them like Captain Moroni treated the Lamanites. As brothers who have gone astray and remembering how far astray we are.

ISIS may be a just punishment on the western world for our crushing hopes for Islamic democracy from the colonial era through both World Wars. They might be the enemy we deserve because we created their resentment.

[Investigating]

Have you all seen this?

 

 

By Stephanie Nebehay

GENEVA, Feb 4 (Reuters) - Islamic State militants are selling abducted Iraqi children at markets as sex slaves, and killing other youth, including by crucifixion or burying them alive, a United Nations watchdog said on Wednesday.

Iraqi boys aged under 18 are increasingly being used by the militant group as suicide bombers, bomb makers, informants or human shields to protect facilities against U.S.-led air strikes, the U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child said.

"We are really deeply concerned at torture and murder of those children, especially those belonging to minorities, but not only from minorities," committee expert Renate Winter told a news briefing. "The scope of the problem is huge."

Children from the Yazidi sect or Christian communities, but also Shi'ites and Sunnis, have been victims, she said.

"We have had reports of children, especially children who are mentally challenged, who have been used as suicide bombers, most probably without them even understanding," Winter told Reuters. "There was a video placed (online) that showed children at a very young age, approximately eight years of age and younger, to be trained already to become child soldiers."

Islamic State is a breakaway al Qaeda group that declared an Islamic caliphate across parts of Syria and Iraq last summer. It has killed thousands and forced hundreds of thousands from their homes, in what the United Nations has called a reign of terror.

On Tuesday, the group, which is also known as ISIL, released a video showing a captured Jordanian pilot being burned alive.

The U.N. body, which reviewed Iraq's record for the first time since 1998, denounced "the systematic killing of children belonging to religious and ethnic minorities by the so-called ISIL, including several cases of mass executions of boys, as well as reports of beheadings, crucifixions of children and burying children alive."

A large number of children have been killed or badly wounded during air strikes or shelling by Iraqi security forces, while others had died of "dehydration, starvation and heat," it said.

ISIL has committed "systematic sexual violence," including "the abduction and sexual enslavement of children," it said.

"Children of minorities have been captured in many places... sold in the market place with tags, price tags on them, they have been sold as slaves," Winter said, giving no details.

The 18 independent experts who worked on the report called on Iraqi authorities to take all necessary measures to "rescue children" under the control of Islamic State and to prosecute perpetrators of crimes.

"There is a duty of a state to protect all its children. The point is just how are they going to do that in such a situation?", Winter said. (Additional reporting by Marina Depetris; Editing by Crispian Balmer)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/04/isis-crucified-children_n_6613578.html

[ERayR]

That is exactly what ISIS wants, to make it a Holy War between Islam and Christianity. Another dirty stinking pile of death, destruction, lies, and distortions with at least 2 billion lives under threat.

 

Tell me something. In WW2 was it Protestant Christians in the US and England against the Catholic Christians in Germany, Italy, and Shintoism in Imperial Japan, or was it was war against murderous thugs in the government of Germany, Italy, and Japan?

 

It was a war against the "Japs" and Germans.  That is exactly how the man on the street saw it.

[thesometimesaint]

It was a war against the "Japs" and Germans.  That is exactly how the man on the street saw it.

 

While "Japs" is a derogatory term for Japanese. Yes the man on the US streets did see it that way. He didn't see it as a Holy War against Catholics, and or Shintoism. 

[Investigating]

While "Japs" is a derogatory term for Japanese. Yes the man on the US streets did see it that way. He didn't see it as a Holy War against Catholics, and or Shintoism. 

 

Actually, Hitler once said (during a meeting where his remarks were recorded, I think by Martin Borman) that he believed Christianity had weakened the German people, and they were really more suited to be Muslim.

 

(No kidding, he really said that.)

 

And Himmler and the SS were into the old world Nodic (pagan ) religion.

 

The Nazis were not (by any stretch of the imagination) Catholic (and I don't think Italy's fascists really considered themselves Catholic either.)

 

As for the Japanese, there was a religious element that served the empire well toward the end of the war.

 

i.e. The Emperor is a god (the son of the sun), say some prayers, go thru some prescribed rituals, have some saki, get in a plane loaded with explosives and enough gas for a one way trip, head for an American aircraft carrier, and you'll be well received by your honourable ancestors.

 

I well remember a little old oriental gentleman I had as a customer when I was working retail and studying the Japanese Martial Arts.

 

I thought "this would be a good time to try out some of the Japanese I know."

 

Wrong--I learned a lot that night.

 

Mind you, I was young and stupid at the time, and I entertained the notion that there was some moral equivalence between The United States and Japan during WWII (and I'd probably been exposed to a lot of American propaganda in the old WWII movies I'd grown up on.)

 

That little oriental man's reaction when I said "konichiwa," and a little googling when I got home changed my mind.

 

Just try googling "the rape of Nanking" sometime if you want to see what I mean.

 

This was before the Nazis really showed their true colors, and the German reaction was "mein furrer, you've got to do something, what these people are doing to the Chinese here is inhuman."

 

The funny thing is that Japan had an entirely different reputation when they fought Germany with us during WWI.

 

At that time, if you were a German sailor and your ship got sunk, you were hoping to be captured by the Japanese, because they treated their prisoners so well.

 

Maybe the people running the country during the first world war were Buddhists, and the Shintoists took over in between wars, I don't know, but something happened.

 

P.S. My customer was Korean, and his exact words (which I still remember) were "me no Japanese, me hate Japanese, all Asians hate Japanese."

 

When I asked him why, he responded "Japanese mean people."

 

This is a political thread.