Go Where You Find "goodness"

[bdouglas]

In his exit narrative thread (which has been locked), mormonnewb said that although he is leaving the church he "loves the people". I hear this a lot from people who've either left the church, or people who have never been in the church and probably never will be. It's always, "I love the people,"; or "Mormons are the best people you will ever meet." Something like this. Even the authors of "The Book Of Mormon Musical" (which, by the way, I find very offensive) said something like, "Mormons are my favorite people. I love Mormons."

 

What these people seem to be saying is, "I love Mormons. They are the best people on earth — the kindest, most charitable, least judgmental people on earth." Etc., etc. If you go out into the mission field, who are the people who are attracted to the church and eventually join? They are people like this, good people who are attracted to goodness.

 

The reason I bring this up, is, with all of the talk about BOM historicity, the Book Of Abraham, JS polygamy and polyandry, etc., this affinity idea doesn't often get looked at, although I would guess it is the major reason people join the church. Henry King, a British Shakespeare scholar and convert from the 1960s, read the Joseph Smith personal history in the P of GP, and, given his background in literature and textual analysis, was immediately impressed that Joseph Smith was telling the truth about his experience; this lead to his reading of the BOM and eventually he joined the church. But I think he is unusual. Most converts join because of the members: the members are good, they are honest, they are honestly striving to be Christ-like, etc., etc.

 

Listening recently to Richard Bushman's Mormon Stories podcast I was struck by what he said regarding his faith crisis when he was a freshman at Harvard. This faith crisis had nothing to do with history, stones in hats, or anything like that. What was interesting to me is what it was that led him back to the church. He said in the end he decided to "go where goodness was."

 

Very powerful, to my thinking. Go where you find goodness. To me, this trumps all of the talk about BOM historicity, First Vision accounts, polygamy, polyandry, institutional problems, etc. I have a brother who has left the church over certain current issues, issues which get a lot of media, but the thing that is most persuasive to him are not Mormon apologetic arguments that address these issues (these, in fact, have no effect on him whatsoever), rather it is the undeniable influence of Mormonism in the lives of his children who live it. This is the kind of thing that gives him pause, this is what, in his private moments when he is really thinking and pondering, leads him to think, "Maybe I've made a mistake."

 

Really, mormonnewb, this post is for you. Sorry to see you leave, and hope some day you make it back to the fold. Love you, brother.

Edited January 5, 2015 by bdouglas

[Uncle Dale]

...

 

What these people seem to be saying is, "I love Mormons. They are the best people on earth — the kindest, most charitable, least judgmental people on earth." Etc., etc.

...

 

 

 

If I haven't already mentioned it here, my hobby is studying

early Mormon history. Lately I've been devoting an hour or

so every evening to that endeavor.

 

I'm struck by the oft-repeated generalizations that seem to

have originated independently with hundreds (thousands?)

of outsiders, observant non-members, and reluctant apostates:

That among the Mormon individuals (and families) some of

the most praiseworthy folks in the world could be found.

 

But --- that when those same people have "gathered" in significant

numbers, their actions, under professedly "inspired leadership"

have alienated, outraged, and even frightened neighbors and

some of their own members, supposedly "weak in the faith."

 

I'll not dwell on whether any of those hostile judgments had

merit, but I will take note of the fact that most of the opiners in

this regard appear to have limited experience in assessing the

relative "goodness" of earth's many, diverse inhabitants.

 

Rarely do these attributions of "Mormon goodness" extend to

comparisons with folks around the world -- the Buddhists of

Ceylon, or the Mennonites of Europe, or the Hindus of Nepal,

or even America's own Quakers and Second Adventists.

 

When an observer's comparison is limited to the "drunkards

of Corinne" and the "Saints of Cache Valley," the goodness

prize obviously (and deservingly) went to the LDS.

 

But, cast a wider net and consider some wider comparisons,

and the Mormons often do not come off seeming any better

than other groups of dedicated human beings we might discover.

 

The Saints have prided themselves on their industry and faith.

 

But pride goeth before a fall, and comparisons are odious.

 

UD

[Coreyb]

In my experience Mennonites beat Mormons at goodness every time

[Uncle Dale]

In my experience Mennonites beat Mormons at goodness every time

 

When I lived in rural Ohio there was a colony of Amish in the same county,

as well as a Mennonite congregation. The Amish were rather stand-offish,

and used the Mennonites as their go-betweens, for much of their communications

with the "outsiders."

 

Thus, if an Amish farmer had carelessly left his buggy, blocking a public road,

it was easier to make a complaint through a Mennonite "friend," than to attempt

to locate and converse with the thoughtless farmer himself.

 

So, I had occasional opportunities to interact with a few of the Mennonites.

I found them to occupy a thoughtful "middle ground" betwixt the more worldly

Reorganized LDS of my experience, and the exclusive, modernity-denying

Amish. I cannot think of one negative thing to say about those with whom I

interacted. In fact, I rather wished that my "own people," the Saints, were

more like them.

 

Long ago, and far away -- but still holding a spot in my memories.

 

UD

[DragonLancer]

The problem with the notion of goodness, as a "Middle Way" for Mormonism, is that it is a way to stay in Mormonism without retaining faith in historicity and truth claims.

On the one hand, it is certainly better for someone to remain with Mormon identity and not leave the Church.  And if the goodness thing helps them stay, then that is good.

 

However for me, the true sense of word faithful doesn't just mean orthopraxy.

It means to remain faithful in your faith.  To me, that means maintaining faith to truth claims, not just being a practicing, obedient Mormon.

 

I don't know whether there is an eternal consequence to not maintaining faith, and just going through the motions of being "good."

I suspect however, that there may well be a reason that the Lord condemns people that are unbelievers, and that faith in truth claims is a core Mormon value that seems to be basic to the identity of being Mormon.

 

I do not believe, however, that having faith in truth claims means that we have to be a young earth creationist, or that it means that we have to believe that the earth is 6000 or 7000 years old.

I think faith in truth claims means to believe in historicity, that the primary claims of the Book of Mormon are literally and historically true, that the Book of Abraham is a historical document that Abraham penned anciently.  I think it means to believe in the first vision as a literal event, and so forth.  I can't see how someone that only believes in goodness can truly be called a "believer," but actually ought to be classed among the unbelieving.

 

Some may argue that simple faith in Jesus Christ is enough, and belief in other truth claims is optional.  I don't think I agree with that, but a lot of people will disagree with me.

 

If the point of mortality is to truly have faith in what we cannot see, how much faith in truth claims is required to qualify as a "believer," to qualify as one of the "faithful"?

 

Certainly, one would not want to be so "faithful" that one ends up being gullible, believing anything and everything, and being taken by con artists.  I believe that there are a lot of them in the Church among those professing to have had Near Death Experiences and write books, or people that publicly claim to have seen Jesus and had their calling and election made sure (a la Denver Snuffer).

 

Certainly, one would want to have good sense with science and not believe in everything just because Mormon traditions say there was no death before the fall.

 

I'm sure nobody would accuse a Book of Mormon Mesoamericanist of being an apostate or unbeliever or unfaithful for rejecting Cumorah in New York except for the most fundamentalist of Heartlanders.  But for a long time, faith in Cumorah in New York as the place of the Nephite destruction seemed to be a core truth claim.

 

Would I be classed among "unbelievers" by some because I'm a Talmage-BHRoberts-Widtsoe-esque Old Earth believer?

 

Is it something akin to keeping a "higher law" to believe in truth claims?  Is it something that has eternal consequence to keep a "lesser law" of unbelief in truth claims and only in "goodness"?

 

Can someone really, honestly answer temple recommend questions if one believes only in "goodness"?  Is this evidence that there is an eternal consequence if one does not repent of unbelief, because the temple recommend questions represent some sort of standard for being worthy of a higher glory?  Therefore, does this mean that not maintaining faith in truth claims is a sin, and makes one unworthy of the greater glory?  Does it therefore logically follow that someone that does not believe in truth claims is only worthy of the Terrestrial, because they are not worthy of Celestial glory because they cannot answer temple recommend questions truthfully?

 

Aren't some of the questions in a baptismal interview to be baptized in the Church questions that have to do with belief in truth claims, like some of the temple recommend questions?  Is someone that only believes in goodness truly keeping their baptismal covenants?

 

Is it possible that the only way someone can truly be "worthy" as an unbeliever that only believes in "goodness" would be for the brethren to change the standards in the temple recommend questions and in the baptismal interviews?

Edited January 5, 2015 by DragonLancer

[thesometimesaint]

We have a orthodoxy, albeit an expandable one. We also have a strong sense of orthopraxy. It's a "by their fruits you will know them" type thing.

[pogi]

I don't know whether there is an eternal consequence to not maintaining faith, and just going through the motions of being "good."

I suspect however, that there may well be a reason that the Lord condemns people that are unbelievers, and that faith in truth claims is a core Mormon value that seems to be basic to the identity of being Mormon.

 

We will be judged according to the light we have been given.  "Being a Mormon" is a completely unique experience for each Mormon,  this forum testifies to that fact.  It is not our place to judge another's "Mormoness".  If one is a Mormon because they follow the "goodness" in their lives...God bless them for it.  If one is a Catholic because they follow the goodness, or a Buddhist, etc.  God bless them also. 

[Tacenda]

I heard something today through two different podcasts.  Both from women, the one was talking about how religions can be abusive to children, and the other woman was speaking about how children are taught from birth to believe in their parent's religion, with no ability to choose from the get go. 

 

What I gleamed from one of them is that the LDS do not teach the "spare the rod, spoil the child" way of parenting that most bible believing religions teach, or IOW corporal punishment.  The other woman said that in her studies of religion she found that Mormonism was the opposite of other Christian faiths in our belief of no "original sin".  So both good things to think about in the LDS church, woo hoo!  

Edited January 5, 2015 by Tacenda

[The Nehor]

Goodness is great but not exclusive. Godliness is better and is exclusive.

That being said I agree with the characterization of others inside the church who remark that the LDS church contains the best people in the world along with a healthy dose of the worst.

[pogi]

Goodness is great but not exclusive. Godliness is better and is exclusive.

 

Yet, "there are none good but God".  To seek after goodness is to seek after Godliness. 

[DragonLancer]

... healthy dose of the worst.

 

And who would this be?  Perhaps people that aren't keeping basic Christian values?  Or people that are unkind to their fellow men maybe?

[Buckeye]

I will also miss mormonnewb, though I'm not sure from his post whether he is formally resigning or simply walking away from the church in order to spend his time somewhere he judges more fruitful. Either way, I trust that he is the best person to decide his course of action.

 

As to the underlying issue of staying vs. leaving, may I recommend this excellent post by Nathaniel Givens: http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2014/04/should-i-stay-or-should-i-go/

 

... And so here is my advice to those considering leaving the Church, based on my own thoughts for what I would try to do if it were me: if you go, go for love. Go because you believe you have found something better. And if you stay, stay for love. To the extent that you are able, do not react against something bad, but rather strive towards something good.

 

[The Nehor]

And who would this be?  Perhaps people that aren't keeping basic Christian values?  Or people that are unkind to their fellow men maybe?

Will discussing this with you provoke another profanity-laden meltdown or is it safe to proceed?

[DragonLancer]

We will be judged according to the light we have been given.  "Being a Mormon" is a completely unique experience for each Mormon,  this forum testifies to that fact.  It is not our place to judge another's "Mormoness".  If one is a Mormon because they follow the "goodness" in their lives...God bless them for it.  If one is a Catholic because they follow the goodness, or a Buddhist, etc.  God bless them also. 

 

True enough that salvation is individual.  But there must be some reason, if the LDS truth claims are true, that the Lord would emphasize belief in truth claims.

[DragonLancer]

Will discussing this with you provoke another profanity-laden meltdown or is it safe to proceed?

 

So you admit to the fact that you are responsible for the provocation then.  Good little boy.

[The Nehor]

So you admit to the fact that you are responsible for the provocation then.  Good little boy.

You are adorable when you think you are being clever.

[DragonLancer]

You are adorable when you think you are being clever.

 

You can be a fluffy little cuddly little bear yourself when you choose to be.

[The Nehor]

You can be a fluffy little cuddly little bear yourself when you choose to be.

I am flattered but I am not interested.

[pogi]

You are adorable when you think you are being clever.

 

You can be a fluffy little cuddly little bear yourself when you choose to be.

 

You two are adorable! 

[DragonLancer]

I am flattered but I am not interested.

 

Well, it is, after all, your own free agency to be interested or not.  Good for you.  Exercising your right you voted for in pre-existence.  Good for you man.

[The Nehor]

Well, it is, after all, your own free agency to be interested or not.  Good for you.  Exercising your right you voted for in pre-existence.  Good for you man.

Is this some kind of participation congratulations like a participation trophy because I am morally opposed to those.

[DragonLancer]

Is this some kind of participation congratulations like a participation trophy because I am morally opposed to those.

 

Congratulations on having a morality.

[The Nehor]

Congratulations on having a morality.

I also refuse to quarter troops in my home on moral grounds. I have two moralities.

[DragonLancer]

I also refuse to quarter troops in my home on moral grounds. I have two moralities.

 

Wow.  complex.

[The Nehor]

Wow.  complex.

I know. I am basically Mother Theresa without the wimple.