ALarson Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 I am seeing this question asked on other forums and I thought I'd ask for input on this topic here. Why didn't Joseph have Emma sealed to him when he received the sealing keys? Why was he sealed to so many other women before he was sealed to Emma?
cdowis Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) del Edited November 19, 2014 by cdowis
ALarson Posted November 16, 2014 Author Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) Joseph was sealed to Emma on May 28, 1843. We have records of him sealing himself to many women prior to that date. Do you want those dates too? I can look them up and return, but I just mainly was wondering if Joseph felt in the beginning that the sealing keys were to be used to live the principle of polygamy only? Otherwise why did he not seal Emma to him when he received the keys instead of waiting until she seemed to be more approving of polygamy? Hope that makes sense. Edited November 16, 2014 by ALarson
ERayR Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 Joseph was sealed to Emma on May 28, 1843. We have records of him sealing himself to many women prior to that date. Do you want those dates too? I can look them up and return, but I just mainly was wondering if Joseph felt in the beginning that the sealing keys were to be used to live the principle of polygamy only? Otherwise why did he not seal Emma to him when he received the keys instead of waiting until she seemed to be more approving of polygamy? Hope that makes sense. I doubt if we can know for sure but it very well could have been Emma herself who refused.
JulieM Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 I am seeing this question asked on other forums and I thought I'd ask for input on this topic here. Why didn't Joseph have Emma sealed to him when he received the sealing keys? Why was he sealed to so many other women before he was sealed to Emma?Is this true? Is so, it makes no sense to me. I would think that the first person Joseph would think of would be Emma when he received the sealing power. I'm already struggling with the information I learned in the new essay, but I'm trying to work through it and I'm reading all I can find to help me on here and other church websites. However, this is upsetting if true. If so, I would love to read anything others know about why this happened.
canard78 Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 I doubt if we can know for sure but it very well could have been Emma herself who refused.You just made that up! 4
ERayR Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 Is this true? Is so, it makes no sense to me. I would think that the first person Joseph would think of would be Emma when he received the sealing power. I'm already struggling with the information I learned in the new essay, but I'm trying to work through it and I'm reading all I can find to help me on here and other church websites. However, this is upsetting if true. If so, I would love to read anything others know about why this happened. See my previous post. It is well known that Emma was having serious problems with it and it is possible that she would not until then.
ERayR Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) You just made that up!Considering Emma's opposition it is a logical assumption but no I do not have any references. Edited November 16, 2014 by ERayR
JulieM Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 I doubt if we can know for sure but it very well could have been Emma herself who refused.Do you know that? Is there evidence of that? She would have had to refuse for 7 years and then learn that he was sealing himself to other women. I cannot imagine the betrayal I'd feel if this happened to me with my husband!Wow, I'm struggling with all of this. I hope there's more than "I doubt if we can know for sure" and then blaming it on Emma. Sorry, but that's how I'm feeling right now. Nothing will stop me from loving the church, but I have to say that my feelings towards Joseph Smith are changing now.
JulieM Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 (edited) See my previous post. It is well known that Emma was having serious problems with it and it is possible that she would not until then.Serious problems with polygamy? What does that have to do with her getting sealed to Joseph for all eternity (along with their children)? Edited November 16, 2014 by JulieM 1
ERayR Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 Do you know that? Is there evidence of that? She would have had to refuse for 7 years and then learn that he was sealing himself to other women. I cannot imagine the betrayal I'd feel if this happened to me with my husband!Wow, I'm struggling with all of this. I hope there's more than "I doubt if we can know for sure" and then blaming it on Emma. Sorry, but that's how I'm feeling right now. Nothing will stop me from loving the church, but I have to say that my feelings towards Joseph Smith are changing now. I am not trying to blame anything on Emma. I have nothing but respect for her. It is well known that when first approached w=she was considerably less than enthused with the idea. Why are you struggling with it? If you have a spiritual manifestation of the restoration does this negate that?
ERayR Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 Serious problems with polygamy? What does that have to do with her getting sealed to Joseph for all eternity (along with their children)? If I were have brought something like that to my wife I know she would not have acquiesced until she could accept the idea.
JulieM Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 If I were have brought something like that to my wife I know she would not have acquiesced until she could accept the idea.Are you talking about polygamy or being sealed to her for eternity? Did Joseph immediately combine polygamy with being sealed for eternity? I sincerely want to know the answer to that. I know I need to read more on this topic and I appreciate your help. Thanks.
ERayR Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 Are you talking about polygamy or being sealed to her for eternity?Did Joseph immediately combine polygamy with being sealed for eternity? I sincerely want to know the answer to that. I know I need to read more on this topic and I appreciate your help. Thanks. Why are you struggling with it? If you have a spiritual manifestation of the restoration does this negate that?
ALarson Posted November 16, 2014 Author Posted November 16, 2014 Did Joseph immediately combine polygamy with being sealed for eternity?It appears that he might have originally felt the sealing keys were to be used to live the principle of polygamy. Does anyone have more info on that?
JulieM Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 It appears that he might have originally felt the sealing keys were to be used to live the principle of polygamy. Does anyone have more info on that?So, the word "sealing" has evolved to mean something different than what Joseph defined it to be?
ERayR Posted November 16, 2014 Posted November 16, 2014 So, the word "sealing" has evolved to mean something different than what Joseph defined it to be? What do you understand the concept of sealing today?
JulieM Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 (edited) What do you understand the concept of sealing today?To seal me to my husband and children (and my siblings, parents, etc.). NOT to seal my husband to other wives as its principle purpose. I am shocked that Joseph wasn't sealed to Emma his beloved first wife (and his children) before he was sealed to many (25 or more?) other women. I'm still not clear on why he'd do that. But, I appreciate you giving me information and help on this topic, ERayR. Edited November 17, 2014 by JulieM
ERayR Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 To seal me to my husband and children (and my siblings, parents, etc.). NOT to seal my husband to other wives as its principle purpose. I am shocked that Joseph wasn't sealed to Emma his beloved first wife (and his children) before he was sealed to many (25 of more?) other women.I'm still not clear on why he'd do that. But, I appreciate you giving me information and help on this topic, ERayR. Joseph apparently viewed the sealing ordinance as a way to bind families to him in a dynastic relationship. He not only sealed women to him but he sealed men to him as sons. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_adoption_%28Mormonism%29 For some good information see: http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Polyandry
JulieM Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 Joseph apparently viewed the sealing ordinance as a way to bind families to him in a dynastic relationship. He not only sealed women to him but he sealed men to him as sons. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_adoption_(Mormonism) For some good information see: http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/PolyandryThanks, I'll read those references!
bcuzbcuz Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 If I were have brought something like that to my wife I know she would not have acquiesced until she could accept the idea.Well, then I must congratulate you on the stability of your marriage. My first, now deceased wife, was so against the idea, and even more, the practise of plural marriage that she wanted me to promise I wouldn't marry anyone else if she died. I didn't have any problem giving her such a promise, for two reasons. First and foremost, because I find the idea of plural marriage repugnant (polyandry, of marrying women already married, to a mate not deceased, is off the chart repugnant to me). My second reason for feeling secure in my promise to never re-marry lies in my own inability to even conceive of having two women in the same household as me. I find it hard enough to please one wife, let alone two.My first wife died unexpectedly, more than 20 years ago. I still moarn her loss. I did eventually re-marry, after a respectful 15 years. My present wife, knowing the present aimless wallowing about polygamy, and the chorus of yes-sayers who try to convince any who will listen, that polygamy is going to hit us sooner or later, has eloquently expressed her thoughts that if I even thought about or lusted after another woman she would be out the door, and out of my life, before I could blink twice. You say your wife would need time to come around to the concept. If I came home and informed my wife that plural marriage was a divine principle, and, Oh, by the way, I've been doing it for 11 years to a 20 some-odd women?? She wouldn't need any time to "come around" to the idea. She'd be gone. 3
CV75 Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 To seal me to my husband and children (and my siblings, parents, etc.). NOT to seal my husband to other wives as its principle purpose. I am shocked that Joseph wasn't sealed to Emma his beloved first wife (and his children) before he was sealed to many (25 or more?) other women.I'm still not clear on why he'd do that. But, I appreciate you giving me information and help on this topic, ERayR.I think it helps to think about where the sealing power and the sealing keys differ and where they overlap. For example, the sealing power is attendant to the keys of the kingdom (D&C 1:8-9; 27:13; 68:12). It is also attendant to the keys of this dispensation (D&C 110:13-16). This is why in the revelation about baptism for the dead (given several years after Elijah came) we have in 128:14 the explanation that “This, therefore, is the sealing and binding power, and, in one sense of the word, the keys of the kingdom, which consist in the key of knowledge.” The other keys that were restored also reflect the sealing power, as do the keys of the kingdom that were restored before the Church was organized; there is no key that hasn’t the sealing power associated with it in some fashion. Every key allows a binding of some kind in heaven and on earth, whether it pertain to gathering, to the dissemination of priesthood blessings (110:11, 12), or to any other function. The sealing power associated with the keys of Elijah is in relation to preparing the Lord’s people, both living and dead, for the Second Coming. So I think when and how Joseph and Emma were sealed as a couple can be taken from several valid viewpoints, depending on the keys that were exercised, and when. We often see people renewing and repeating covenants as the Restoration progressed, but not to cancel and/or replace earlier covenants, but to fulfil and further expand on their fulfillment, and to recommit with additional light and knowledge. 1
mfbukowski Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 (edited) We are conditioned to think that "sealing"= marriage = sex. That was not necessarily the case in the early days, "sealing" was sealing- the foundation of the Patriarchal Order in which all, (it is believed) of mankind would be "sealed" into one huge and continuous family. Essentially that has not changed- that is still the ultimate goal of family history. Edit: and no I am not maintaining that Joseph's polygamous marriages do not involve sex, though mysteriously, to my knowledge none involved descendants at least as far as I am aware. (That's a backhanded way of saying that though they did not necessarily include sex, that possibility is not precluded) Edited November 17, 2014 by mfbukowski 3
mfbukowski Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 I think it helps to think about where the sealing power and the sealing keys differ and where they overlap. For example, the sealing power is attendant to the keys of the kingdom (D&C 1:8-9; 27:13; 68:12). It is also attendant to the keys of this dispensation (D&C 110:13-16). This is why in the revelation about baptism for the dead (given several years after Elijah came) we have in 128:14 the explanation that “This, therefore, is the sealing and binding power, and, in one sense of the word, the keys of the kingdom, which consist in the key of knowledge.” The other keys that were restored also reflect the sealing power, as do the keys of the kingdom that were restored before the Church was organized; there is no key that hasn’t the sealing power associated with it in some fashion. Every key allows a binding of some kind in heaven and on earth, whether it pertain to gathering, to the dissemination of priesthood blessings (110:11, 12), or to any other function. The sealing power associated with the keys of Elijah is in relation to preparing the Lord’s people, both living and dead, for the Second Coming. So I think when and how Joseph and Emma were sealed as a couple can be taken from several valid viewpoints, depending on the keys that were exercised, and when. We often see people renewing and repeating covenants as the Restoration progressed, but not to cancel and/or replace earlier covenants, but to fulfil and further expand on their fulfillment, and to recommit with additional light and knowledge.
ERayR Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 Well, then I must congratulate you on the stability of your marriage. My wife is now deceased. I am not sure what here response would have been nor how long it would have taken her to decide as we were never faced with the need to make such a decision.My first, now deceased wife, was so against the idea, and even more, the practise of plural marriage that she wanted me to promise I wouldn't marry anyone else if she died. I didn't have any problem giving her such a promise, for two reasons. First and foremost, because I find the idea of plural marriage repugnant (polyandry, of marrying women already married, to a mate not deceased, is off the chart repugnant to me). My second reason for feeling secure in my promise to never re-marry lies in my own inability to even conceive of having two women in the same household as me. I find it hard enough to please one wife, let alone two. It is MNSHO that to many do not know and make the distinction between marriage and sealing.My first wife died unexpectedly, more than 20 years ago. I still moarn her loss. My wife died in July after a long illness. Know what you mean.I did eventually re-marry, after a respectful 15 years. My present wife, knowing the present aimless wallowing about polygamy, and the chorus of yes-sayers who try to convince any who will listen, that polygamy is going to hit us sooner or later, has eloquently expressed her thoughts that if I even thought about or lusted after another woman she would be out the door, and out of my life, before I could blink twice. I do not think all of polygamy was because of lusting but that is for another thread, some other time.You say your wife would need time to come around to the concept.If I came home and informed my wife that plural marriage was a divine principle, and, Oh, by the way, I've been doing it for 11 years to a 20 some-odd women?? She wouldn't need any time to "come around" to the idea. She'd be gone. I can understand her attitude. I will be the first to agree that it was always done correctly but I don't condemn the men and women who did the best they knew how.
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