Mesoamerican Theory Predictions

[MormonFreeThinker]

John L. Sorenson predicted that an underwater city is in Lake Atitlan, there is now evidence that confirms that prediction.  Sorenson drew the target before he shot the arrow. 

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/underwater-archaeology-and-the-book-of-mormon-in-sorensons-mormons-codex/

 

Sorenson's theory predicted volcanic eruptions during Book of Mormon times (three volcanoes in Sorenson's model San Martin, El Chichon, and Tacana),  there is now evidence that eruptions happened around 30 BC – AD 170.

 

Mesoamerican theory predicts writing systems in Book of Mormon times, there is now evidence for that too.  The earliest known Mayan script dates from about 250 BC. 

,

None of that proves the Mesoamerican theory, but it shows that it is plausible.  

 

What did the Peru and Great Lakes proponents predict before evidence was found? 

Do they draw the target before or after shooting arrows? 

Edited August 7, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Darren10]

MormonFreeThinker;

From the article:

Archaeological discoveries of this nature should be of great interest to scholars, suggesting that we still have much to learn about pre-Columbian history. The potential connection with the Book of Mormon is not proven, but the discovery of an underwater city within miles of Sorenson’s earlier proposed location, and the evidence for its rapid submergence two thousand years ago, is striking.

I completely agree.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Darren10

[Alan]

To answer your question, Great Lake proponents do not need to predict anything. A great deal of the evidence has already been found in my view.

[MormonFreeThinker]

MormonFreeThinker;

From the article:

I completely agree.

 

I said that it doesn't prove the Mesoamerican model, but it proves that Mesoamerican scholars know what they are talking about, and it shows that the model is plausible. 

 

To answer your question, Great Lake proponents do not need to predict anything. A great deal of the evidence has already been found in my view.

 

So they drew the target after shooting the arrow?  Please tell me about the great deal of evidence that has already been found. It is very easy to find "evidences" for anything, it is harder to make a prediction that is accurate. 

Edited August 7, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Alan]

But why do they need to make any predictions?

I think they just go where the evidence leads. They don't need to speculate.

[MormonFreeThinker]

But why do they need to make any predictions?

I think they just go where the evidence leads. 

 

It is not required, but it is better. So what are the evidences for the Great Lakes theory?   

Edited August 7, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[bcuzbcuz]

John L. Sorenson predicted that an underwater city is in Lake Atitlan, there is now evidence that confirms that prediction.  Sorenson drew the target before he shot the arrow. 

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/underwater-archaeology-and-the-book-of-mormon-in-sorensons-mormons-codex/

 

Sorenson's theory predicted volcanic activity during Book of Mormon times, there is now evidence that eruptions happened in 30 BC – AD 170 in Mesoamerica  

 

Mesoamerican theory predicts writing systems in Book of Mormon times, there is now evidence for that too.  The earliest known Mayan script dates from about 250 BC. 

,

None of that proves the Mesoamerican theory, but it shows that it is plausible.  

 

What did the Peru and Great Lakes proponents predict before evidence was found? 

Do they draw the target before or after shooting arrows?

To really know if Sorenson "drew a target before shooting arrows" we'd have to know when Soreson made the prediction related to information that has come forth about Lake Atitlan in Guatemala. Local peoples have seen ruins beneath the surface of the lake. The lake level dropped several meters following an earthquake in 1976.

Sorenson published his book in 2013. That provides plenty of time to "discover" such a target.

[MormonFreeThinker]

Sorenson published his book in 2013. That provides plenty of time to "discover" such a target.

 

Sorenson made that prediction in his 1985 book.  

 

 

Local peoples have seen ruins beneath the surface of the lake. The lake level dropped several meters following an earthquake in 1976.

 

CFR Did local peoples see the ruins in 1976? When Sorenson made his prediction, "he didn’t expect that archaeological evidence for this would have survived" 

 

"A scientific paper published in Guatemala in 2000 by two Guatemalans experienced in underwater archaeology, Henry Benatez and Robert Samayoa, supports that idea with dramatic new evidence" 

"Changes in the level of the lake of up to 15 feet per year were reported in historical documents in Spanish, but no evidence of a sudden rise or fall was known until recently." 

"some finds in the Atitlan area indicate that settlers lived in the vicinity since before the time of Christ, and the smoothed stela at Samabaj points to a date possibly earlier"

 

http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/media/HTML/z7iz3hxy/The%20Submergence%20of%20the%20City%20of%20Jerusalem%20in%20the%20Land%20of%20Nephi.htm?n=0

Edited August 7, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[Alan]

There's a submerged village in a lake in Derbyshire. There's one in Northumberland too.

There are also old coins, evidence of horses, writing, metallurgy, settlements, battlefields etc here.

Should we now be looking at a British Isles location for the Book of Mormon?

Edited August 8, 2014 by Alan

[Duncan]

There's a submerged village in a lake in Derbyshire. There's one in Northumberland too.

There are also old coins, evidence of horses, writing, metallurgy, settlements, battlefields etc here.

Should we now be looking at an British Isles location for the Book of Mormon?

 

 

You should get Tony Robinson, Phil Harding and the rest of the gang from Time Team on it! Do a special!!!

[bcuzbcuz]

Sorenson made that prediction in his 1985 book.

CFR Did local peoples see the ruins in 1976? When Sorenson made his prediction, "he didn’t expect that archaeological evidence for this would have survived"

Lake Atitlan is technically endorheic (lacking direct flow to the sea) but substantial seepage feeds two nearby rivers.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Atitlán

But in 1976 an earthquake caused a significant drop in the water level. (Cracks in the rock allowed an outflow at or near the bottom, much like what happened to Mountain Lake, Virginia, as seen in the movie "Dirty Dancing". That lake no longer exists because all the water drained out. )

Lake Atitlan used to be very clear, admired for its beauty. Now, it is more like a cesspool. But in 1976 visibility was good. The lake level dropped 20 meters

http://www.atidivers.com/lake-atitlan-history.php

(that's more than 60 feet, for those metrically challenged). According to the article you quoted, the ruins would have been quite visible.

Why is Lake Atitlan rising?

Seismic activity has been low in the last decade, but volcanic activity does influence relatively long-period fluctuations in the lakes level.

Reportedly low in the 1820s, it rose by 10-15m in the 1870s before dropping in the 1920s and rising again from the 1940s until present.

These changes are caused by annual rainfall which can account for rises of up to 3.3m as seen in 1933, and regional earthquakes affecting the lakes underground drainage, such as in 1976 when the level dropped 20m.

It is thought further changes are caused by a rising and falling of the silt layer at the bottom of the lake, caused by cycles of volcanic activity and inactivity, in what may be a 50-60 year cycle.

http://www.atidivers.com/lake-atitlan-history.php

"In 1999 Benitez and Samayoa reported ruins of stone buildings in the lake that they found during scuba dives. A modest-sized pyramid and a number of stelae have since been located at their city site, called Samabaj. The structures were some 56 feet (17 m) beneath the surface near the south shore."

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/underwater-archaeology-and-the-book-of-mormon-in-sorensons-mormons-codex/

Edited August 7, 2014 by bcuzbcuz

[cinepro]

Sorenson's theory predicted volcanic activity during Book of Mormon times, there is now evidence that eruptions happened in 30 BC – AD 170 in Mesoamerica  

 

Wow!  Sorenson predicted volcanic activity during Book of Mormon times?  Color me impressed!

 

The Sierra Madre mountains, which consist of a number of smaller ranges, run from northern Mesoamerica south through Costa Rica. The chain is historically volcanic. In central and southern Mexico, a portion of the Sierra Madre chain is known as the Eje Volcánico Transversal, or the Trans-Mexican volcanic belt. There are 83 inactive and active volcanoes within the Sierra Madre range, including 11 in Mexico, 37 in Guatemala, 23 in El Salvador, 25 in Nicaragua, and 3 in northwestern Costa Rica. According to the Michigan Technological University,^[11] 16 of these are still active.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerica

 

[cinepro]

John L. Sorenson predicted that an underwater city is in Lake Atitlan, there is now evidence that confirms that prediction.  Sorenson drew the target before he shot the arrow. 

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/underwater-archaeology-and-the-book-of-mormon-in-sorensons-mormons-codex/

 

Sorenson's theory predicted volcanic activity during Book of Mormon times, there is now evidence that eruptions happened in 30 BC – AD 170 in Mesoamerica  

 

Mesoamerican theory predicts writing systems in Book of Mormon times, there is now evidence for that too.  The earliest known Mayan script dates from about 250 BC. 

,

None of that proves the Mesoamerican theory, but it shows that it is plausible.  

 

What did the Peru and Great Lakes proponents predict before evidence was found? 

Do they draw the target before or after shooting arrows? 

 

If you're an honest inquirer into the subject of Book of Mormon geography, can you describe some "targets" that would falsify the Mesoamerican theory?

[MormonFreeThinker]

But in 1976 an earthquake caused a significant drop in the water level. (Cracks in the rock allowed an outflow at or near the bottom, much like what happened to Mountain Lake, Virginia, as seen in the movie "Dirty Dancing". That lake no longer exists because all the water drained out. )

Lake Atitlan used to be very clear, admired for its beauty. Now, it is more like a cesspool. But in 1976 visibility was good. The lake level dropped 20 meters (that's more than 60 feet, for those metrically challenged). 

 

that says nothing about ruins in 1976, and it is the wikepedia, I always question the wikepedia. Even if the ruins were visible in 1976, Sorenson was not aware about them because "he didn’t expect that archaeological evidence for this would have survived"

I don't know what part of the lake you are talking about, but there is still plenty of water where the ruins are, see 5:15 

 

 

"In 1999 Benitez and Samayoa reported ruins of stone buildings in the lake that they found during scuba dives. A modest-sized pyramid and a number of stelae have since been located at their city site, called Samabaj. The structures were some 56 feet (17 m) beneath the surface near the south shore."

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/underwater-archaeology-and-the-book-of-mormon-in-sorensons-mormons-codex/

 

In 1999, after Sorenson published his prediction in his 1985 book. 

Edited August 7, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[MormonFreeThinker]

Wow!  Sorenson predicted volcanic activity during Book of Mormon times?  Color me impressed!

 

There are three volcanoes in Sorenson's model, San Martin, El Chichon, and Tacana. The Smithsonian Global Volcanism Program tabulates reports on eruption histories of volcanoes worldwide. They have data on timing and size of eruptions for all three of the above volcanoes that permits identification of whether the three could have produced large eruptions simultaneously as far back as 6585 BCE. In that 8600 year record, there are possible overlaps only about 3% of the time, in two separate time periods

1230–1190 BC [too early]

30 BC – AD 170 [matches the circa AD 30 eruption at Christ's death]

 

Can you find other big eruptions around 30 AD in the American continent? 

http://volcano.si.edu/

[ERayR]

There's a submerged village in a lake in Derbyshire. There's one in Northumberland too.

There are also old coins, evidence of horses, writing, metallurgy, settlements, battlefields etc here.

Should we now be looking at an British Isles location for the Book of Mormon?

 

Since when was the British Isles part of North America.  I know that some years back they owned some property here but I thought that claims to that had been relinquished.  However, it wouldn't surprise me if some of those settlements were from Hagoth's descendents.

[bcuzbcuz]

that says nothing about ruins in 1976, and it is the wikepedia, I always question the wikepedia. Even if the ruins were visible in 1976, Sorenson was not aware about them because "he didn’t expect that archaeological evidence for this would have survived"

I don't know what part of the lake, but where the ruins are still has plenty of water, see 5:15 

 

 

 

In 1999, after Sorenson published his prediction in his 1985 book.

I've edited my post to be as I wanted it. The quote of importance is not froom Wikipedia, but from ATI Divers of Atitlan Lake. They should know what they're talking about.

The 1999 date is from your own quote.

In 1976 the lake water level sank by 20 meters, that's more than 65 feet. According to your article the ruins lie at 17 meters, that 55 ½ feet. That means the ruins were between 1 to 10 feet above the water line. And as I stated, the lake was very clear so more of the ruins would be visible in the water. (I was diving just last week on the ruins of the Roman city of Myndos off the coast of southwest Turkey, near the city of Gumusluk. The ruins are, on a day with little water turbulence, clearly visible to 3 + meters below the surface. I can show you pictures if you're interested)

It is within the realm of possibility that Sorenson knew about the ruins (despite his saying the contrary) by 1985. (Since they were visible 9 years earlier)

I have also included a post in my edited post from the Atitlan diving site addressing the rising water in the lake.

[bcuzbcuz]

There are three volcanoes in Sorenson's model, San Martin, El Chichon, and Tacana. The Smithsonian Global Volcanism Program tabulates reports on eruption histories of volcanoes worldwide. They have data on timing and size of eruptions for all three of the above volcanoes that permits identification of whether the three could have produced large eruptions simultaneously as far back as 6585 BCE. In that 8600 year record, there are possible overlaps only about 3% of the time, in two separate time periods

1230–1190 BC [too early]

30 BC – AD 170 [matches the circa AD 30 eruption at Christ's death]

 

Can you find other big eruptions around 30 AD in the American continent? 

http://volcano.si.edu/

Are volcanoes mentioned in the Bof M? I don't recall.

[MormonFreeThinker]

Are volcanoes mentioned in the Bof M? I don't recall.

 

No, but Sorenson predicted volcanic eruptions in his Book of Mormon model.

 

 

In 1976 the lake water level sank by 20 meters, that's more than 65 feet. According to your article the ruins lie at 17 meters, that 55 ½ feet. That means the ruins were between 1 to 10 feet above the water line.

 

But none of the articles say that ruins were visible in 1976, and the structures were some 56 feet (17 m) beneath the surface in 1999. 

The maximum depth of Lake Atlitlan is about 340 meters, so 20 meters less is not that much, that means that water level of the area where the ruins are was much higher before 1976. 

 

"lake water level sank"

What water level? There are many water levels in the lake. 

Perhaps livy111us can clarify this for us because he has done a lot of research on this subject. 

Edited August 7, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[ERayR]

It is not required, but it is better. So what are the evidences for the Great Lakes theory?   

 

Would that have to be peer reviewed?

[cinepro]

No, but Sorenson predicted volcanic eruptions in his Book of Mormon model.

Wait, can you explain to me exactly how that works? If I create a model of the Book of Mormon that requires ancient mound-builders, then does that mean the presence of ancient mounds is evidence in favor of my geography?

Hate to break it to you, but if it was already known that there were volcanoes in the area, then predicting ancient volcanic activity isn't very impressive (even coincidental activity). If you think it is, then it probably says more about your standard for evidence on the matter than anything else.

Edited August 7, 2014 by cinepro

[Duncan]

Wait, can you explain to me exactly how that works? If I create a model of the Book of Mormon that requires ancient mound-builders, then does that mean the presence of ancient mounds is evidence in favor of my geography?

Hate to break it to you, but if it was already known that there were volcanoes in the area, then predicting ancient volcanic activity isn't very impressive (even coincidental activity). If you think it is, then it probably says more about your standard for evidence on the matter than anything else.

 

 

well, I guess if known by Joseph Smith, more so that Sorenson,about Volcanoes in an area and how they work and such then that would be a good thing

 

Are there Volcanoes in the US? I have no idea, and would Joseph Smith have known about it?

Edited August 7, 2014 by Duncan

[USU78]

well, I guess if known by Joseph Smith, more so that Sorenson,about Volcanoes in an area and how they work and such then that would be a good thing

 

Are there Volcanoes in the US? I have no idea, and would Joseph Smith have known about it?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_volcanoes_in_the_United_States

 

A mostly West Coast phenomenon:  + Yellowstone.

[ERayR]

then it probably says more about your standard for evidence on the matter than anything else.

 

I want to know what happened to the peer reviewed requirement here.

[Anijen]

Yes there have been volcanoes in the U.S., but any volcano east of the Mississippi river erupted about 60 million years ago which barely misses the time frame of the Book of Mormon.