The Trinity

[Servant]

God loved the world that He sent HIS spirit to Mary and Mary concieved. The Word became flesh and God dwelt among us. Jesus came to lead us on the path so we can share the love and joy of Heaven. He died and was risen. Jesus also gave us a promise. After He risen God sent His spirit to us (known as Holy Spirit).

So you tell me...

[johnny]

Dan_  writes,

If God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are "three seperate beings", can I be my own Grandpa?

Could you explain?

The first synonym for person in the thesaraus is being.

The Catholic Church defines person this way:

252 The Church uses (I) the term "substance" (rendered also at times by "essence" or "nature") to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term "person" or "hypostasis" to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term "relation" to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.

Does this mean that as God made us, in his own image, he made Jesus? What makes Jesus different, other than having the full power of God with him? ( sorry to keep bringing that up, I dont mean to ) Otherwise, if the Spirit of God and Jesus's spirit are one in the same, then how can they have seperate concious beings as they would need to be when Jesus lived on earth?

Jesus is true God and true Man.

[Servant]

so tell me the verses I gave out which I think I gave more than what was asked...tell me does the "three seperate gods that can do what they will with different minds and all" the versus you gave out harmonize with eachother? They dont.

[LDS4EVER]

After the hug, Johnny will give Jesus the link to his Anti-Mormon web site.

Just conjecture, of course.

I think the meeting between those two will go something like this:

Jesus said, Whom do men say that I am?

And johnny answered and said, Some say you are John the Baptist returned from the dead; others say Elias, or other of the old prophets.

And Jesus answered and said, But whom do you say that I am?

johnny answered and said, "Thou art the Logos, existing in the Father as His rationality and then, by an act of His will, being generated, in consideration of the various functions by which God is related to his creation, but only on the fact that Scripture speaks of a Father, and a Son, and a Holy Spirit, each member of the Trinity being coequal with every other member, and each acting inseparably with and interpenetrating every other member, with only an economic subordination within God, but causing no division which would make the substance no longer simple."

And Jesus answering, said, "What?"

Totally funny!!!

[johnny]

BCSpace  writes,

LOL! See? johnny did not even try to provide a single verse saying that all Three are the same God. That's because he knows (and many Catholics have admitted) that they don't exist (the trinity theory being considered by them to be 'continuing revelation)

Here are a few verses:

1Timothy 1:2, 2:5, 3:16; John 1:1,14,18; John 14:23

On the other hand, I have numerous references for the plurality of Gods, both Bible and early Christian:

Gen 1:26 and Gen 3:22 reveals that God is one but not solitary. These verses do not show plurality of Gods.

Exod 20:3-4 reveals that their are things called gods but from the Bible we know that their is one God.

Deut 32:8-9 does not reveal two Gods.

Isa 9:6, John 1:1, John 7:16, Matt 6:9, John 17:11,20-22, Heb 1:3 do not reveal that their are three Gods as Joseph Smith taught.

Heb 1:8, 1Cor 8:4-6, Rev 1:5-6 do not reveal that their "Godhood's" are separte. Jesus clearly stated their is one Lord.

Not only did many Christian writers identify Jesus with Yahweh, until the 5th century it was quite common to call Jesus either a "second God", the chief angel, or both. Similarly, it was made clear that the Holy Spirit occupies the third place.

Many Early Christian Fathers said something very different:

- I do not mean that there are two Gods (Hippolytus 210AD)

- A Triad is preached by Scripture, neither Old Testament nor New preaches three Gods (Dionysius 262 AD)

- No division of substance, but merely an extension. Christ is Spirit of Spirit ... the two are one (Tertullian 197AD)

- The Logos is God, being the substance of God (Hippolytus 220AD)

- Regarding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ... it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension (Origen 230AD)

- The Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other (Tertullian 213AD)

- Divinity may be spoken of as one in three persons, the trinity is established, unity is not dissevered (Gregory 270AD)

- For both are one--that is, God (Clement of Alexandria 202AD)

- The Father and the Son being one. And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son (Athenagoras 177 AD)

- He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God (Justin Martyr 155AD)

John 17:11,20-22 causes them the same problem.

John 17:11,20-22 does not cause no problems

[johnny]

Dan_

[Servant]

God can do anything. God is omnipotent.

[Dan_]

This is all so hard to grasp without a view of God's spirit as somewhat "schizophrenic", that term not meant offensively. But one with three "personalities" (not accurate to what I mean) manifest simultaniously through three *persons (oops). Sounds...... Divine! Heh, I need to read more. My girlfriend is a strong Catholic and I have alot of respect for your religion Johnny (and others here). I am sorry if I have offended you through any of these arguements, I am just exploring and trying to understand both sides in order to increase my own faith. I guess thats why I'm here

[Herb]

Scripture reveals the following:

Ephesians 4

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The problem is, if I say that then Jesus isn't omnipresent, this vague scripture will be quoted as proof He is. If I say He is, then it will be quoted to show He isn't. This scripture fails to answer the question definitively.

[Herb]

God can do anything. God is omnipotent.

Can He be alone?

[Dan_]

As easily as he can smite you for asking

I dont know, this is too technical for me to make sense of. It's like arguing Quantum Mechanics and String Theory or something; except religion.

divine being in its unity

Johnny, you used this earlier to help define being (I think, substance/nature). The dictionary definition of Divine today can be many things, such as "Heavenly; perfect" or "Superhuman; godlike" So to rephrase, would the persons the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit/Ghost, being distinct, together make up a being of perfection and unity? Defining God is impossible; defining perfect is a concept and philosophy, not really something easy to do. Because of this I can see "Three Gods making One Unity" (Joseph Smith) and Three distinct persons making One Unified God (Orthadox Catholics) as being an odd battle. 1 God + 1 God + 1 God = 1 Godhead, Vs 1 Divine Person who is God + 1 Divine Person who is also God + 1 Divine Person who is also also God = 1 Godhead

*And Sorry I keep editing my posts, Im trying to aviod a double post while 6 or 7 people are reading my unedited ones and responding

[johnny]

Dan_  writes,

This is all so hard to grasp without a view of God's spirit as somewhat "schizophrenic", that term not meant offensively. But one with three "personalities" (not accurate to what I mean) manifest simultaniously through three *persons (oops). Sounds...... Divine! Heh, I need to read more. My girlfriend is a strong Catholic and I have alot of respect for your religion Johnny (and others here). I am sorry if I have offended you through any of these arguements, I am just exploring and trying to understand both sides in order to increase my own faith. I guess thats why I'm here

The Trinity is not "one with three "personalities" manifest simultaniously through three *persons .

The Trinity is not three Gods but one God in three divine persons. God is one but not solitary. The Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one. Each of the divine persons is God whole and entire, by nature one God. Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, one in Being with the Father.

It is my bedtime ... I will respond to your post tomorrow.

[Alexander]

Three separete beings does NOT harmonize with all these verses I gave out.

All of them?

For one, only a handful at most of the verses you quoted actually deal with the number of God if you read into them a specific way.

And, none of those verses clearly support the trinity.

Unless of course there are some clear ones that I missed. Of course if you had clear verses you probably wouldn't have buried them in a pile of highly questionable verses.

[Alexander]

God can do anything. God is omnipotent.

Can he lie?

[mom4life]

If you want to have the trinity explained, I suggest those of you who don't have access to a Catechism of the Catholic Church either pick one up at the library or go online. It explains it in a clear and simple manner. My 8 year old grasps the meaning of the trinity. God is the Creator, not the creature. Our minds and intelligences are limited. God cannot be understood in purely human terms. And besides if we knew and understood everything, where is the room for faith?

[King Pagan]

BCSpace  writes,

The trinity theory teaches that the Three are separate individual persons so there really is no conflict in the quote above.

Their is a conflict ... three separate individual persons is not the same as three seperate beings. The Trinity reveals that their is one eternal being.

Where the trinity falls down is that is claims the Three to be the same being/essence/God. There are no Bible verses for that. Note that johnny will not be able to provide any.

Where Mormonism falls down is that Joseph Smith claimed three Gods. There are no Bible verses for that. Note that BCSpace will not be able to provide any.

Just looking at different ends of the same beast and trying to describe it to each other over the telephone.

I take the 3-Musketeers approach; "One for all, all for one." No individual is ever separated from God. Yet, God manifests Itself as an individual...or a rock...or a fish...

[Dan_]

If you want to have the trinity explained, I suggest those of you who don't have access to a Catechism of the Catholic Church either pick one up at the library or go online.

[Alexander]

If you want to have the trinity explained, I suggest those of you who don't have access to a Catechism of the Catholic Church either pick one up at the library or go online. It explains it in a clear and simple manner. My 8 year old grasps the meaning of the trinity. God is the Creator, not the creature. Our minds and intelligences are limited. God cannot be understood in purely human terms. And besides if we knew and understood everything, where is the room for faith?

I for one have tried very hard to comprehend the Trinity. Mostly because Johnny and others keep saying that it is taught in the Bible and I find it rather difficult to look for evidence of something unless I know what that something is (others, apparently, do not have this difficulty). I would have to say that despite my best efforts I still think it makes no sense. I have been shown diagrams such as the one below and all I see is Father = God = Son but Father != Son.

In regards to your 8 year old daughter understanding it. Need I point out that she's, well... 8 and 8 year olds are naive.

[BCSpace]

I take the 3-Musketeers approach; "One for all, all for one." No individual is ever separated from God. Yet, God manifests Itself as an individual...or a rock...or a fish...

That would be modalism (oneness) combined with paganism. Just as false as the trinity theory.

[BCSpace]

I have been shown diagrams such as the one below and all I see is Father = God = Son but Father != Son.

The diagram is a correct representation of the trinity theory, but as you mentioned, it is not in the Bible.

[BCSpace]

Can he lie?

Did He lie? Remember that Sarah was Abraham's sister by half (Genesis 20:12)...

[BCSpace]

Ephesians 4

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Which God is that? The Father or the Son? Notice that while the Son is a God (as per Isa 9:6, John 1:1), the Father, who the Son says is his God, is above him (John 20:17 etc.)....

You have another problem with your interpretation of this verse. 'Through' means the reason or means that you exist and 'in' means of the same mind or standing with as in moral support. There is no such thing as 'Indwelling' or literal omnipresence in the Bible. God's influnce is what is omnipresent as His physical body (which contains His spirit) cannot be everywhere at once.

[1dc]

This is all so hard to grasp without a view of God's spirit as somewhat "schizophrenic", that term not meant offensively. But one with three "personalities" (not accurate to what I mean) manifest simultaniously through three *persons (oops).

As I've tried to grasp this, they are not talking about a 3 headed or conflicted being. I see the classic Trinitarian belief as being somewhat like the Borg on Star Trek, except that each member is equal in power, even if different in form. The collective is God, but each is also fully God . . since they are "connected" there is one God.

However, there are some problems with this:

- We know Jesus is not a part of a single collective mind. He told us He and the Father have separate wills. That they have separate will means their connection is by use of their choice in free agency (a VERY key point in my understanding of the Gospel). That means that they are united in purpose, though it doesn't limit them from being united in other ways (glory, power, perfection/purity, etc.), too.

- Jesus instructed us to pray to the Father, in His name. So though they are equal in power, there is a source, a mediator, and servants. It is a model for our obedience. Whether that is by choice or nature is somewhat irrelevant to us, for they are all God to us.

- If we are created by one God, then there is no need to be adopted as His sons, but rather we would already be His spirit children from our spirit creation. Rather, I choose to believe we are the Father's spirit children, but that we may be adopted by Christ and allocated and adopted as His children due to His sacrifice on our behalf. This also suggests one in nature versus being.

- I've never seen an explanation of the Trinty that actually doesn't directly include or ultimately degrade to it is unexplainable. With that case, then there is room in such an unexplainable model for the Social Model to fit in simply by changing the labels if the proponents were seeking unity with their brethren. The 3 persons are 3 Gods because each fully has the power of God, and they are one as a Godhood with 1 leader. They may be more than that but if you can't explain it and you can't show how the other approach is wrong, then it is a matter for individual faith and not prideful argument.

Accordingly and IMO,

"One God" = Godhood (of all three persons), or the Father as leader/source depending on scripture

PS to Servant - I'm interested why you would Jesus changing water to wine supports a Nicean Trinity over a social Trinity . . or any Trinity for that matter.

You may not agree with the Social Trinity approach, but it does fit with scripture . . it is simply a different *set* of interpretations to those scriptures. Pick a couple you think are problems and I'm sure you can get answers as to how others see them as fitting the alternative scenario. You may not agree, but that doesn't mean it doesn't fit a completely rigorous reconciliation to scripture. One can learn this by asking instead of telling . .

[johnny]

Dan_  writes,

Thanks you, this is exactly why I see this whole topic as so hard.

Make the topic easier ... Historical Christinity preaches one God ... Mormonism preaches three Gods ... How many Gods does the Bible reveal?

Alexander  writes,

I have been shown diagrams such as the one below and all I see is Father = God = Son but Father != Son.

The diagram illustrates what the Anthanasian/Trinitarian Creed says and the Creed reveals what the Bible as a whole reveals. This diagram is not saying "Father = God = Son but Father != Son". It is saying:

Athanasian Creed (Trinitarian Creed)

The person of the Father is a distinct person,

the person of the Son is another,

and that of the Holy Spirit still another.

But the Godhead(divinity) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,

There are not three eternal beings;

there is but one eternal being.

The Father is God,

the Son is God,

the Holy Spirit is God.

Yet there are not three gods;

there is but one God.

BCSpace  writes,

The diagram is a correct representation of the trinity theory, but as you mentioned, it is not in the Bible. 

It is in the Bible ... one God in three divine persons.

BCSpace  writes,

Which God is that? The Father or the Son? Notice that while the Son is a God (as per Isa 9:6, John 1:1), the Father, who the Son says is his God, is above him (John 20:17 etc.)....

Eph 4:6 says the Father. Jesus said he was the Son of God. Jesus did not say he was a God.

BCSpace  writes,

There is no such thing as 'Indwelling' or literal omnipresence in the Bible.

I did not say "indwelling" ... there is a thing as "dwelling".

1dc  writes,

they have separate will means  ... That means that they are united in purpose,

This Trinty also reveals this ...

1dc  writes,

there is a source, a mediator, and servants.

This Trinty also reveals this ...

1dc  writes,

If we are created by one God, then there is no need to be adopted as His sons, but rather we would already be His spirit children from our spirit creation.

We are created. To become "children of God" we must be "born from above" or "born of God". Men are not Christ's brethren by nature. Through adoption (justification) men can become sons of God.

1dc  writes,

I've never seen an explanation of the Trinty that actually doesn't directly include or ultimately degrade to it is unexplainable.  ... The 3 persons are 3 Gods because each fully has the power of God, and they are one as a Godhood with 1 leader.

The apostles called godliness a mystery. Each person is fully God but neither the Old or New Testament preaches three Gods

1dc  writes,

"One God" = Godhood (of all three persons), or the Father as leader/source depending on scripture

The doctrine of the Trinity reveals this and more ...

1dc  writes,

You may not agree with the Social Trinity approach, but it does fit with scripture

Which verses reveal that their are three Gods?

BCSpace  writes,

Where the trinity theory falls down is that it claims the Three to be the same being/essence/God. There are no Bible verses for that. Note that johnny will not be able to provide any.

I provided the following Bible verses:

1Timothy 1:2, 2:5, 3:16; John 1:1,14,18; John 14:23

I noticed that you did not refute these. Should I assume that these verse support the doctrine of the Trinity.

BCSpace  writes,

here are early Christian references to the plurality of Gods:

I provided the following early Christian references:

- I do not mean that there are two Gods (Hippolytus 210AD)

- A Triad is preached by Scripture, neither Old Testament nor New preaches three Gods (Dionysius 262 AD)

I noticed that you did not refute these. Should I assume that these references support that idea that three Gods was not taught by the Early Church Fathers.

[Servant]

God can do anything. God is omnipotent.

Can He be alone?

With all the angels and Saints praising Him?