A Better Worldwide Flood Theory (New Theory)

[Rob Osborn]

You are being obtuse.

Dis I just hear a mosquito...buzzzz

[mnn727]

How do they know they are that old? Because of their subjective dating methods shown to be incorrect?

LOL  You do know that the Himalayas were created by India slamming into Asia, right? Did that happen in the days since the Flood less than 6000 years ago?

 

Please just stop doing the mental gymnastics trying to make the Billions of years old Earth fit into a strict Biblical model, when the Church doesn't even believe in the "young Earth" theory or  6 literal 24 hour days of creation.

The Church still makes sense when you realize the Bible is not an accurate history manual.

Edited May 14, 2014 by mnn727

[thesometimesaint]

How do they know they are that old? Because of their subjective dating methods shown to be incorrect?

 

How the age of mountains is determined.

http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/lectures/age_of_the_earth/age_of_the_earth.html

[thesometimesaint]

Dis I just hear a mosquito...buzzzz

Good Bye.

[Rob Osborn]

Good Bye.

See ya, when you are ready to have an intelligent and respectful dialogue I will be here.

[Rob Osborn]

How the age of mountains is determined.

http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/lectures/age_of_the_earth/age_of_the_earth.html

Uniformatarianism cant be proven for how the geologic events happened. Besides that, our own Book of Mormon speaks of catastrophism around the time of Christ which geologists do not support. So either the Book of Mormon and Christ appearing in the Americas is a great fabrication or geology and their uniformatarianism is wrong. I will believe the latter.

[thesometimesaint]

Uniformatarianism cant be proven for how the geologic events happened. Besides that, our own Book of Mormon speaks of catastrophism around the time of Christ which geologists do not support. So either the Book of Mormon and Christ appearing in the Americas is a great fabrication or geology and their uniformatarianism is wrong. I will believe the latter.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniformitarianism

[Rob Osborn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniformitarianism

Scientists cannot agree on the rates of geologic events in the past. Some adhere to brief periods of catastrophe while others do not. If we take into account the scriptures then we can surely say that catastrophism is not only a part of the recent past but in fact may be the main forces involved that shaped the various geologic monuments we see.

[mnn727]

See ya, when you are ready to have an intelligent and respectful dialogue I will be here.

 

You leave us such an opening............................ I'll resist however.

[DJBrown]

The entirety of the Americas has never been underwater at least for the last 10,000 years. But I am fine with the relatively tiny area that Ether stood on.

 

That "tiny are" would be the land described in the Book of Mormon and which is associated with the significant promises extended by the Lord.  I have a tough time believing that "land" was a "tiny" area in Mesoamerica.

[CV75]

If 1 Cor. 10:1–2 was a symbol of baptism or an analogy, the Noah gospel topics article says that the Flood was a symbol of baptism. If the Flood was not a symbol, but a real baptism, there was no need for an ocean to cover the planet.

The Flood can certainly used as a symbol of baptism. At the same time, I think he Earth's baptism may not have been the Flood but another ordinance performed during the process of gathering the waters together during the Creation. That doesn't help the global/local discussion, but there may have been a "global flood" that also served as a baptism for the Earth during the Creation. Edited May 14, 2014 by CV75

[CV75]

oops

Edited May 14, 2014 by CV75

[DJBrown]

That "tiny are" would be the land described in the Book of Mormon and which is associated with the significant promises extended by the Lord.  I have a tough time believing that "land" was a "tiny" area in Mesoamerica.

 

Sorry.  Should read "That tiny area." 

[ERayR]

A Reply from someone who has obviously never grown tree's from seeds, well I have grown tree's from seeds. The first leaf will grow within about 6 weeks, and its so small (about 1/6 to 1/8 the size of a penny) that it would not be noticeable in a doves mouth. Now this is assuming it would conditions just right to sprout and grow after spending over a year covered under how much (salt) water, oh yeah, enough to cover the highest mountain to a depth of 26 cubits, got news for you, olive tree's don't grow on the tops of high mountains.

Next expert please?

 

Just to point out a point you may not have considered.  That much water from the fountains of the deep and from a water canopy over the earth would seriously dilute the salt water.  Not taking any position but only pointing out a possible flaw in your reasoning.

[ERayR]

Even were that true, which for multiple reasons no rational person believes, don't forget according to Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground (Substance, not animal, not creature, but every thing; grass, trees, plants, etc)

 

Your hill sized mountains does not even matter to this conversation as you also have to remember this dove finding an olive leaf is just 7 days after Noah sent out another dove that found no place to land, and 14 days after a raven found no place to land. 7-14 days is just not enough time for an olive leaf to grow, tiny or not.

 

May I point out this is what could be considered a futile discussion as there are too many could haves involved.

[Calm]

Besides that, our own Book of Mormon speaks of catastrophism around the time of Christ which geologists do not support. So either the Book of Mormon and Christ appearing in the Americas is a great fabrication or geology and their uniformatarianism is wrong.

Geologists do support the description as being of a volcano eruption. The description ties in quite nicely with other such reported events.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/insights/29/4/S00005-A_Note_on_Volcanism_and_the_Book_of_Mormon.html

Edited May 14, 2014 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

The same science that brought us the atomic bomb also brought us nuclear medicine. The same science that is designed to break things allows us to see how things are made. The same science that made the car kills tens of thousands of American's every year. You are using the same science of electricity to power your computer that kills people everyday by electrocution. The list of ways in which science has benefited our lives is as long as the ways in which it has been used to destroy. Science is by design amoral. It is the purposes to which we put it that makes us moral or immoral.

 

I don't worship science. It is an incredibly useful tool nothing more. Cooking is an art. While baking is chemistry.

 

Too much of anything is too much. To much of plain water causes death. We simply call it drowning.

 

tss you were condemning religion:

thesometimesaint, on 13 May 2014 - 6:54 PM, said:

Everyone has one. Mine is supported by science. You Biboliters has a horrendous record of burning people at the stake for daring to disagree with you.

 

Just pointing out that science doesn't have any better track record in that area.

 

Scientific advancement has made life easier and maybe better in some ways but it also has brought some horrific things into our lives.  Religion has brought some very bad things but it also has brought some very good things to the lives of many.

 

I was just pointing out that before you condemn the "Biboliters" take a hard look at your wonderful science.  Again the good of science can be offset by the bad of science.   It has certainly made it easier to break things and kill people and not even get your hands dirty.

[Rob Osborn]

Geologists do support the description as being of a volcano eruption. The description ties in quite nicely with other such reported events.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/insights/29/4/S00005-A_Note_on_Volcanism_and_the_Book_of_Mormon.html

The events in the BoM around Christs death describe massive geologic processes happening very fast most of which were not volcanic events.

[ERayR]

That "tiny are" would be the land described in the Book of Mormon and which is associated with the significant promises extended by the Lord.  I have a tough time believing that "land" was a "tiny" area in Mesoamerica.

 

Don't, the evidence certainly points that way.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Just to point out a point you may not have considered.  That much water from the fountains of the deep and from a water canopy over the earth would seriously dilute the salt water.  Not taking any position but only pointing out a possible flaw in your reasoning.

I have thought about this a bit. And I wonder, how much salt dispersion could the fish of the ocean stand before dying? IOW how much dilution of salt need to happen before the fish of the ocean die and on the other side how much salt can fresh water fish tolerate before dying.

 

Keep in mind I am not arguing for one thing or the other. Just a question I have thought about with regards to the flood story.

[Tiki]

Don't, the evidence certainly points that way.

No it doesn't. Lehi's and Ishmael's families crossed Arabia in 8 years time and that's slow.

Yet, we're supposed to believe the Nephites, Mulekites, Lamanites and Jaredites stayed put in a much smaller local area than Arabia? For 1,000 years, the Jaredites even longer? We may as well believe Noah's flood was local.

[thesometimesaint]

 

tss you were condemning religion:

thesometimesaint, on 13 May 2014 - 6:54 PM, said:

Everyone has one. Mine is supported by science. You Biboliters has a horrendous record of burning people at the stake for daring to disagree with you.

 

Just pointing out that science doesn't have any better track record in that area.

 

Scientific advancement has made life easier and maybe better in some ways but it also has brought some horrific things into our lives.  Religion has brought some very bad things but it also has brought some very good things to the lives of many.

 

I was just pointing out that before you condemn the "Biboliters" take a hard look at your wonderful science.  Again the good of science can be offset by the bad of science.   It has certainly made it easier to break things and kill people and not even get your hands dirty.

 

 

I'm not condemning any religion, let alone my own. I merely take the position that if there are errors they are the fault of man to apply to both my religion and science.

 

When was the last time anyone was burned at the stake by science?

 

Never said they haven't made life better. The ignorant, sometimes knowingly (mis)application of both is a great disservice. 

 

Biboliters are those that worship the Bible(Scripture) as some sort of infallible God breathed piece of paper. I certainly have never worshiped the Bible(Scripture), and have never believed the Church does either. I don't worship science either to me it is just a tool to explain how God did it. It is our misuse of both that get us into trouble.

[rameumptom]

The events in the BoM around Christs death describe massive geologic processes happening very fast most of which were not volcanic events.

 

Rob, you are truly a wonder to behold.

 

Virtually all LDS scientists and scholars agree in a limited geographical theory for the Book of Mormon. The geological processes you state would only have to cover a few hundred square miles, which is very possible with the eruption of one or two volcanoes.  Such plate tectonic activity as we get around the "circle of fire" in the Pacific causes exactly the things described in 3 Nephi 8-10).  Cities are burned, others are buried in the falling ash.  Some are drowned in the seas by tsunamis.  Mountain sides can collapse, dam up rivers, and flood out towns, as well (check out the history of Quake Lake next to Yellowstone National Park as an example of how this can happen).  Of course, volcanic eruptions cause disruptions in the atmosphere, which can cause storms.  Of course, if they had volcanic eruption at the same time a hurricane hit land, then this could also explain the whirl winds, etc.

 

Science fits nicely with much of the Book of Mormon, though not perfectly.

[rameumptom]

No it doesn't. Lehi's and Ishmael's families crossed Arabia in 8 years time and that's slow.

Yet, we're supposed to believe the Nephites, Mulekites, Lamanites and Jaredites stayed put in a much smaller local area than Arabia? For 1,000 years, the Jaredites even longer? We may as well believe Noah's flood was local.

 

You are comparing oranges and apples.  Nephi and the Brother of Jared traveled far under commandment of God TO the Land of Promise. Once in the land of Promise, there was no major need to make continual giant treks.

[Rob Osborn]

Rob, you are truly a wonder to behold.

 

Virtually all LDS scientists and scholars agree in a limited geographical theory for the Book of Mormon. The geological processes you state would only have to cover a few hundred square miles, which is very possible with the eruption of one or two volcanoes.  Such plate tectonic activity as we get around the "circle of fire" in the Pacific causes exactly the things described in 3 Nephi 8-10).  Cities are burned, others are buried in the falling ash.  Some are drowned in the seas by tsunamis.  Mountain sides can collapse, dam up rivers, and flood out towns, as well (check out the history of Quake Lake next to Yellowstone National Park as an example of how this can happen).  Of course, volcanic eruptions cause disruptions in the atmosphere, which can cause storms.  Of course, if they had volcanic eruption at the same time a hurricane hit land, then this could also explain the whirl winds, etc.

 

Science fits nicely with much of the Book of Mormon, though not perfectly.

Let point out a few verses-

10 And the earth was carried up upon the city of Moronihah, that in the place of the city there became a great mountain (3 Nephi 8:10)

13 And the highways were broken up, and the level roads were spoiled, and many smooth places became rough. (3 Nephi 8:13)

17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth.

18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were found in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land. (3 Nephi 8:17-18)

6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;

7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Jerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and waters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come up any more unto me against them.

8 And behold, the city of Gadiandi, and the city of Gadiomnah, and the city of Jacob, and the city of Gimgimno, all these have I caused to be sunk, and made hills and valleys in the places thereof; and the inhabitants thereof have I buried up in the depths of the earth, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up any more unto me against them. (3 Nephi 9:6-

There were other countless cities burned, destroyed, sunk in the ocean, sunk in the earth. Seams of cracks, broken strata and other testamonies of geologic upheavals. This was all testified of his death.

20 But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead.

21 Yea, at the time that he shall yield up the ghost there shall be thunderings and lightnings for the space of many hours, and the earth shall shake and tremble; and the rocks which are upon the face of this earth, which are both above the earth and beneath, which ye know at this time are solid, or the more part of it is one solid mass, shall be broken up;

22 Yea, they shall be rent in twain, and shall ever after be found in seams and in cracks, and in broken fragments upon the face of the whole earth, yea, both above the earth and beneath.

23 And behold, there shall be great tempests, and there shall be many mountains laid low, like unto a valley, and there shall be many places which are now called valleys which shall become mountains, whose height is great.

24 And many highways shall be broken up, and many cities shall become desolate. (Helaman 14:20-24)

None of this sounds like a little small eruption in a small piece of geography.