Tiki Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 You are comparing oranges and apples. Nephi and the Brother of Jared traveled far under commandment of God TO the Land of Promise. Once in the land of Promise, there was no major need to make continual giant treks.Oh really? So why didn't the people of Nephi discover the people of Zarahemla until hundreds of years later in a small Mesoamerica area? Confirmed by the fact the language of the Mulekites had become corrupt because the latter had no records, despite both groups having come from Jerusalem?And why didn't they discover each other sooner via the Maya, since the LGT claims the Nephites lived among the Maya? The Aztec interacted with the Maya, and the Aztec lived outside of the alleged LGT area.
Tiki Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 Rob, you are truly a wonder to behold. Virtually all LDS scientists and scholars agree in a limited geographical theory for the Book of Mormon. The geological processes you state would only have to cover a few hundred square miles, which is very possible with the eruption of one or two volcanoes. Such plate tectonic activity as we get around the "circle of fire" in the Pacific causes exactly the things described in 3 Nephi 8-10). Cities are burned, others are buried in the falling ash. Some are drowned in the seas by tsunamis. Mountain sides can collapse, dam up rivers, and flood out towns, as well (check out the history of Quake Lake next to Yellowstone National Park as an example of how this can happen). Of course, volcanic eruptions cause disruptions in the atmosphere, which can cause storms. Of course, if they had volcanic eruption at the same time a hurricane hit land, then this could also explain the whirl winds, etc. Science fits nicely with much of the Book of Mormon, though not perfectly.You obviously never heard of "earthquake fog."http://www.tnhistoryforkids.org/insearchof/new_madrid_earthquake"The “sulphurous vapor” that Bryan mentioned was a chemical released by the earth that engulfed the entire region with a fog-like covering for months. Another resident of New Madrid said that after the first quake struck, “we sought a high open spot of ground, and remained there until morning, which it seemed to us would never come. When morning dawned, no sun shone on us to gladden our hearts. A dense vapor arose from the seams of the earth and hid it from view.” " A Mesoamerica volcanic eruption? That's for amateurs.
Calm Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) None of this sounds like a little small eruption in a small piece of geography.Who said it was a little small eruption?From wiki:"The tallest mountain in Mesoamerica is Pico de Orizaba, a dormant volcano located on the border of Puebla and Veracruz. Its peak elevation is 5,636 m (18,490 ft).....The Sierra Madre mountains, which consist of a number of smaller ranges, run from northern Mesoamerica south through Costa Rica. The chain is historically volcanic. In central and southern Mexico, a portion of the Sierra Madre chain is known as the Eje Volcánico Transversal, or the Trans-Mexican volcanic belt. There are 83 inactive and active volcanoes within the Sierra Madre range, including 11 in Mexico, 37 in Guatemala, 23 in El Salvador, 25 in Nicaragua, and 3 in northwestern Costa Rica. According to the Michigan Technological University,[11] 16 of these are still active. The tallest active volcano is Popocatépetl at 5,452 m (17,887 ft). This volcano, which retains its Nahuatl name, is located 70 km (43 mi) southeast of Mexico City. Other volcanoes of note include Tacana on the Mexico–Guatemala border, Tajumulco and Santamaría in Guatemala, Izalco in El Salvador, Momotombo in Nicaragua, and Arenal in Costa Rica." Edited May 17, 2014 by calmoriah
Rob Osborn Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 Who said it was a little small eruption? From wiki: "The tallest mountain in Mesoamerica is Pico de Orizaba, a dormant volcano located on the border of Puebla and Veracruz. Its peak elevation is 5,636 m (18,490 ft)..... The Sierra Madre mountains, which consist of a number of smaller ranges, run from northern Mesoamerica south through Costa Rica. The chain is historically volcanic. In central and southern Mexico, a portion of the Sierra Madre chain is known as the Eje Volcánico Transversal, or the Trans-Mexican volcanic belt. There are 83 inactive and active volcanoes within the Sierra Madre range, including 11 in Mexico, 37 in Guatemala, 23 in El Salvador, 25 in Nicaragua, and 3 in northwestern Costa Rica. According to the Michigan Technological University,[11] 16 of these are still active. The tallest active volcano is Popocatépetl at 5,452 m (17,887 ft). This volcano, which retains its Nahuatl name, is located 70 km (43 mi) southeast of Mexico City. Other volcanoes of note include Tacana on the Mexico–Guatemala border, Tajumulco and Santamaría in Guatemala, Izalco in El Salvador, Momotombo in Nicaragua, and Arenal in Costa Rica." From the scripture account it seems to me that this was more than just volcanoes. I think it involved great mountain building of plates being upthrust to great height.
thesometimesaint Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 Let point out a few verses-10 And the earth was carried up upon the city of Moronihah, that in the place of the city there became a great mountain (3 Nephi 8:10)13 And the highways were broken up, and the level roads were spoiled, and many smooth places became rough. (3 Nephi 8:13)17 And thus the face of the whole earth became deformed, because of the tempests, and the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the quaking of the earth.18 And behold, the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth, insomuch that they were found in broken fragments, and in seams and in cracks, upon all the face of the land. (3 Nephi 8:17-18)6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Jerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and waters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come up any more unto me against them.8 And behold, the city of Gadiandi, and the city of Gadiomnah, and the city of Jacob, and the city of Gimgimno, all these have I caused to be sunk, and made hills and valleys in the places thereof; and the inhabitants thereof have I buried up in the depths of the earth, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up any more unto me against them. (3 Nephi 9:6- There were other countless cities burned, destroyed, sunk in the ocean, sunk in the earth. Seams of cracks, broken strata and other testamonies of geologic upheavals. This was all testified of his death.20 But behold, as I said unto you concerning another sign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his light unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of three days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead.21 Yea, at the time that he shall yield up the ghost there shall be thunderings and lightnings for the space of many hours, and the earth shall shake and tremble; and the rocks which are upon the face of this earth, which are both above the earth and beneath, which ye know at this time are solid, or the more part of it is one solid mass, shall be broken up;22 Yea, they shall be rent in twain, and shall ever after be found in seams and in cracks, and in broken fragments upon the face of the whole earth, yea, both above the earth and beneath.23 And behold, there shall be great tempests, and there shall be many mountains laid low, like unto a valley, and there shall be many places which are now called valleys which shall become mountains, whose height is great.24 And many highways shall be broken up, and many cities shall become desolate. (Helaman 14:20-24)None of this sounds like a little small eruption in a small piece of geography. Prooftexting
Anijen Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 From the scripture account it seems to me that this was more than just volcanoes. I think it involved great mountain building of plates being upthrust to great height.Where do you suppose this happened? Was it Mt Everest, McKinley, Cahokia, Salt Flats? I am curious you condemn a Mesoamerican theory every chance you get. Tell me in your view what happened and where it happened. I do not need evidence I just want to know from your perspective, your opinion where and how, and what happened. Thanks.
Tiki Posted May 17, 2014 Posted May 17, 2014 (edited) Where do you suppose this happened? Was it Mt Everest, McKinley, Cahokia, Salt Flats? I am curious you condemn a Mesoamerican theory every chance you get. Tell me in your view what happened and where it happened. I do not need evidence I just want to know from your perspective, your opinion where and how, and what happened. Thanks.Well everyone knows the new world geography of The Book of Mormon occurred in a 500 x 200 mile Indian Reservation within Mesoamerica. Just read the writings of the mind reader at the MI:"In Mormon’s mind, the scene of the Nephite, Lamanite, and Jaredite activities was of limited size. ....The dimensions are small, although hardly tiny. The promised land in which the Nephites’ history played out was on the order of five hundred miles long and over two hundred miles wide, according to Mormon’s mental map."http://publications.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1119&index=5&keyword=Five%20hundred%20milesSo only one tiny volcano was necessary. A little volcanic !Bloop! and its ash cloud covered a 500 x 200 mile area.It was in Mormon's mind. Yeah that Mesoamerica Theory is really something.Rob Osborn should be banned from civilized society for thinking outside of a 500 x 200 mile box. Or maybe Anijen should stone him, because anyone who can read the mind of Mormon is first without sin. Edited May 17, 2014 by Tiki
Rob Osborn Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 Where do you suppose this happened? Was it Mt Everest, McKinley, Cahokia, Salt Flats? I am curious you condemn a Mesoamerican theory every chance you get. Tell me in your view what happened and where it happened. I do not need evidence I just want to know from your perspective, your opinion where and how, and what happened. Thanks. I persoanlly believe in a more semi-hemispheric view. I believe the "land southward" in the BoM was in South America. I believe the Narrow neck was the area of Panama and that the "land northward was in Central America and on upwards north from there. I do not believe all of South America was above sea level in ancient times (around the BoM times) but that most of it was upthrust after Christ's death and continued on from there for hundreds of years at a slower rate. Evidence of cities such as the remains of seaprt city Tiahuanaco at the Bolivian border show that it was at or near sea level in historic times but was then violently upthrust to over three miles relatively quickly. Many evidences of growing corn at lower levels in ancient times also abound. I absolutely do not subscribe to a meso-american view of the BoM as that is not what I gleam form the text. The area is far too small for entire nations the size they were to war with each other in such small geographic areas. Besides all that, there is no plausible answer for a "narrow neck" in Southern Mexico- it flat out doesn't work.
MormonFreeThinker Posted May 18, 2014 Author Posted May 18, 2014 I absolutely do not subscribe to a meso-american view of the BoM as that is not what I gleam form the text. The area is far too small for entire nations the size they were to war with each other in such small geographic areas. Besides all that, there is no plausible answer for a "narrow neck" in Southern Mexico- it flat out doesn't work. The meso-american model is the best model. See the video
Rob Osborn Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 The meso-american model is the best model. See the video I believe the Mayans were the Jaredites. All outward evidence points to it.
MormonFreeThinker Posted May 18, 2014 Author Posted May 18, 2014 (edited) I believe the Mayans were the Jaredites. All outward evidence points to it. "Besides all that, there is no plausible answer for a "narrow neck" in Southern Mexico- it flat out doesn't work." It does workhttp://www.bmaf.org/articles/narrow_neck_narrow_pass__hennesse a south america geography doesn't work, and the Jaredites are clearly not the Maya The DNA essay approved by the First Presidency says"what seems clear is that the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples likely represented only a fraction of all DNA in ancient America" https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng When Book of Mormon says "thousands" it is probably an exaggeration."Thousands" may mean "many people" "Million" may mean "many many people" Is there something that we can agree with? Edited May 18, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker
Rob Osborn Posted May 18, 2014 Posted May 18, 2014 "Besides all that, there is no plausible answer for a "narrow neck" in Southern Mexico- it flat out doesn't work." It does work http://www.bmaf.org/articles/narrow_neck_narrow_pass__hennesse a south america geography doesn't work, and the Jaredites are clearly not the Maya The DNA essay approved by the First Presidency says "what seems clear is that the DNA of Book of Mormon peoples likely represented only a fraction of all DNA in ancient America" https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng When Book of Mormon says "thousands" it is probably an exaggeration. "Thousands" may mean "many people" "Million" may mean "many many people" Is there something that we can agree with? If you want we can start a new topic to discuss the BoM geography because otherwise we are gonna derail this topic the moment we delve into it.
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