Will We Be With Our Beloved Pets In Heaven?

[saemo]

Hi saemo,

I think we can and should love God's creatures and be good to them as reflections of their Creator. But if all of the non-human animals are being resurrected, it seems like maybe we shouldn't take the liberty to eat their bodies when it pleases us. If only some of the non-human animals are resurrected, presumably pets, where do their souls (immortal?) go while awaiting the resurrection of the body? I believe in the Limbos of the Fathers and of the Children. Would we also need a Limbo of the Pets? I am not against the idea. It just seems insupportable. Are you familiar with the arguments for the immortality of the human soul offered by most Catholic thinkers including Aquinas? It excludes all non-human animals. The following comments are from the Summa, Part 1, Q.75

"We must conclude, therefore, that the human soul, which is called the intellect or the mind, is something incorporeal and subsistent."

"We must assert that the intellectual principle which we call the human soul is incorruptible."

The arguments for immortality of the soul are always based on what Aquinas calls "the intellectual principle". It is that in us which would exist if and when the body is corrupted. With regards to brute beasts, (lacking the intellectual principle), it is possible that they will be present in eternity, but it wouldn't seem possible for it be through any resurrection of the body which would unite to an immortal soul. It would not be resurrected animals but recently born animals. God gives some animals amazing abilities through instinct and imitation, but except for humans, all other animals seem to lack the rational principle by which we reflect upon ourselves, and by which we can be confident that we could not be annihilated except by God.

Article 3 answers the question "Whether the souls of brute animals are subsistent?" http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1075.htm#article3

Thanks.

I presented this view of Aquinas some time ago to my atheist husband, who responded that animals have intelligence. I argued they are not cognitive, are unable to reason, he shot that down as well.

So, I remain unconvinced even though I truly love Aquinas. I leave it to God.

I am nearly vegetarian. Lol. If I could just get my husband convinced that he doesn't need as much protein as he thinks he needs and that non animal proteins are yummy....not there yet. I've told him if he dies before me I'm immediately becoming a vegetarian. Why not now? We can't afford to maintain two different diets, buying expensive proteins of two kinds, and he has to have meat or he thinks his muscles will vanish. (I'm exaggerating somewhat.) We're in this together.

ETA: this sort of reminds me of the very first RCIA I attended, as an atheist, with no intention of converting. I was hoping to learn about Catholic doctrines, regarding God (Trinity), the Sacraments...the heavy duty stuff. They invited people to ask any question they like and the first question was, "Do Catholics believe our pets go to heaven?" The RCIA leader made the joke that all animals go to heaven, except cats, because they're atheist. I was thinking, "Hello, atheist here." They continued to discuss animals and heavens for a good 30 minutes. I didn't go back to that RCIA. I found one that was actually discussing the Trinity, for three whole weeks!

Edited March 29, 2014 by saemo

[3DOP]

saemo, hi.

 

I appreciate your position.

 

I hear people talking about non-human animals having intelligence a lot. If I believed in it, it would make me think much differently about God. Imagine having the intellectual capacity for the written word in the body of an elephant or rabbit. Some members of your species have thoughts as deep and profound as Shakespeare or Dostoevsky with a corresponding sense of beauty in expression, but all of their poetic insights are consigned to remain hidden forever because of a body that is unable to articulate its verbal cogitations in any meaningful respect. I would think that there was either no God, or only a cruel Creator that I could never love if he created true genius that was doomed to waste in such a fashion.

 

If animals have intelligence, does vegetative life also share in the joys and pains that the animals have which are reflected in the animal's ability for locomotion. Does the tree in which a bird makes its nest itch because of the nest, yet have absolutely no way of relieving the irritation because of its vegetative immobility? I see God's love even if a dog or cat has the inevitable fleas when it is able to scratch itself. He gives the horse and the cow longer tails to help with this since they are unable to scratch with their feet. But what about a tree that felt severe pain when the termites invade or irritation when a nest is built in it? To me, such vegetation would also be unnecessarily monstrous creations that would make me have very serious doubts about whether a Creator that would make such a design could be considered good. 

 

There is a reason why, even if we have sharp disagreements about what it means, that LDS and Catholics tend to draw a sharp line regarding what it means to be "made in the image of God" and can not believe that God extends such a treasure to creatures with no ability to utilize or appreciate it.

 

A Blessed Laetare Sunday to you saemo... more than half way through our forty days of Lenten penance and a day of anticipatory relief tomorrow!

 

Rory

 

PS: Intellect and will that corresponds to that in the human animal would seem to imply accountability would it not? When do such creatures reach "age of accountability"? If they can love God as the human will can, if they can ponder the truths of God's creation and reflect upon their own place in it, would they, like angels and men, have the opportunity to choose? If such animals can go to heaven, does it follow that some deserve to go to hell? Why would we consider them innocent if they fail to love God and pursue perfection in Him? If some are fallen, why doesn't God send a Son as an incarnate horse to redeem them and likewise with every other fallen creature?

 

Sorry saemo...my thoughts are running a little wild...These are problems that I see with intelligence extended to non-human animals that would need to be answered. That said, I will be very sad when our cat is gone, and if there is some mysterious way of resurrection that bypasses my perhaps petty objections, I will not complain. 

Edited March 29, 2014 by 3DOP

[saemo]

Rory, trees don't gave a nervous system to feel pain or have an itch. Neither do humans at the beginning stages of our lives. Some humans cannot express their genius, does this make God a cruel God?

Edited March 29, 2014 by saemo

[3DOP]

Rory, trees don't gave a nervous system to feel pain or have an itch. Neither do humans at the beginning stages of our lives.

 

Yes. I agree. It would seem monstrous if they did. 

[Ahab]

Thanks.

I presented this view of Aquinas some time ago to my atheist husband, who responded that animals have intelligence. I argued they are not cognitive, are unable to reason, he shot that down as well.

So, I remain unconvinced even though I truly love Aquinas. I leave it to God.

I am nearly vegetarian. Lol. If I could just get my husband convinced that he doesn't need as much protein as he thinks he needs and that non animal proteins are yummy....not there yet. I've told him if he dies before me I'm immediately becoming a vegetarian. Why not now? We can't afford to maintain two different diets, buying expensive proteins of two kinds, and he has to have meat or he thinks his muscles will vanish. (I'm exaggerating somewhat.) We're in this together.

ETA: this sort of reminds me of the very first RCIA I attended, as an atheist, with no intention of converting. I was hoping to learn about Catholic doctrines, regarding God (Trinity), the Sacraments...the heavy duty stuff. They invited people to ask any question they like and the first question was, "Do Catholics believe our pets go to heaven?" The RCIA leader made the joke that all animals go to heaven, except cats, because they're atheist. I was thinking, "Hello, atheist here." They continued to discuss animals and heavens for a good 30 minutes. I didn't go back to that RCIA. I found one that was actually discussing the Trinity, for three whole weeks!

Looks to me like you didn't get the memo about all how all forms of life have a certain kind and degree of intelligence, even though no other kind has as much as our kind. Within each kind there is a range of degrees of intelligence, with some of one kind having more intelligence than some others of the same kind, like how our Father in heaven has as much intelligence as our kind can possibly have while some others of us, his children, who are the same kind as he is, have not so much.

Apes and dolphins have been known to be very intelligent for quite some time, very close to as much as that of our kind. Even plants are intelligent, and bugs too, even though they are not anywhere near as intelligent as our kind, and there is no good reason to think they should be.

[saemo]

Looks to me like you didn't get the memo about all how all forms of life have a certain kind and degree of intelligence, even though no other kind has as much as our kind. Within each kind there is a range of degrees of intelligence, with some of one kind having more intelligence than some others of the same kind, like how our Father in heaven has as much intelligence as our kind can possibly have while some others of us, his children, who are the same kind as he is, have not so much.

Apes and dolphins have been known to be very intelligent for quite some time, very close to as much as that of our kind. Even plants are intelligent, and bugs too, even though they are not anywhere near as intelligent as our kind, and there is no good reason to think they should be.

And?

[Tiki]

Yes, we'll have our pets in heaven. But not our little children who die before they're baptized. They go to limbo.

 

Mockery of other religions in unacceptable on this forum.

[3DOP]

Yes, we'll have our pets in heaven. But not our little children who die before they're baptized. They go to limbo.

 

Yeah Tiki...good thinking. I like it.

 

Although to be fair...the sentimentalism that leads a Catholic to propose that his/her pet partakes of the Beatific Vision (goes to Heaven), also tends to deny the Limbo of the children, which although I believe in, to be even more fair, is not defined Catholic dogma.

Edited March 30, 2014 by 3DOP

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'll do everything I can in heaven to take my 3 cats with me.

[saemo]

Yeah Tiki...good thinking. I like it.

Although to be fair...the sentimentalism that leads a Catholic to propose that his/her pet partakes of the Beatific Vision (goes to Heaven), also tends to deny the Limbo of the children, which although I believe in, to be even more fair, is not defined Catholic dogma.

Right, we can hope that unbaptized children are in heaven. I don't see we should have a different view of our beloved pets. Is there a dogma that says pets are not in heaven? (Serious question.)

The way I see it is, that all life is sustained by God. Ie, if there is not God there is nothing. If God can sustain everything, and death is a result of God's creation made disordered.....including the death of animals....why believe a perfected creation does not include all of Creation? Does the fully realized Kingdom of God consist only of humans? At our resurrection does all else cease to exist? Or does that happen at our death

Edited March 30, 2014 by saemo

[3DOP]

Right, we can hope that unbaptized children are in heaven. I don't see we should have a different view of our beloved pets. Is there a dogma that says pets are not in heaven? (Serious question.)

The way I see it is, that all life is sustained by God. Ie, if there is not God there is nothing. If God can sustain everything, and death is a result of God's creation made disordered.....including the death of animals....why believe a perfected creation does not include all of Creation? Does the fully realized Kingdom of God consist only of humans? At our resurrection does all else cease to exist? Or does that happen at our death

The Church has never definitively answered the question. It seems to me that a reasonable degree of certainty can be drawn from established truths. 

 

This is just my opinion. I submit to the teaching of the Church as I am sure you do.

 

So this may not be worth much, but it seems to me that we need to keep in mind what heaven is when we ask if our pets are "in heaven". That is why I mentioned the Beatific Vision which emphasizes the experience of heaven as opposed to the location. Inasmuch as heaven is a place, it seems possible that creatures without free will and intellect may inhabit the same places as the redeemed. Inasmuch as heaven is a contemplative state whereby one perceives God as He is, non-human animals could not experience heaven. Do we think they have the capacity to love God with all their heart, and mind and soul? We have mostly talked about intellect, but what about their wills? Can pets freely choose to deny themselves, to do penance, to take up their crosses, and follow Christ? And their neighbors? Who they would need to love as themselves? Who would that be? Another dog or cat, undomesticated animals, humans, all creatures?

 

If non-human animals have the capacity to experience heaven, it seems Catholics would need to do some serious reevaluations about expanding our understanding of "the neighbor who we love as ourselves" to include non-humans.

 

Regards,

 

Rory

Edited March 30, 2014 by 3DOP

[Ahab]

And?

First show me that you accept what I was saying about animals having intelligence, like your atheist husband was saying, and then I'll see if I can see if you are prepared to receive more truth about how even animals are eternal.

[saemo]

First show me that you accept what I was saying about animals having intelligence, like your atheist husband was saying, and then I'll see if I can see if you are prepared to receive more truth about how even animals are eternal.

 

First show me that you accept what I was saying about animals having intelligence, like your atheist husband was saying, and then I'll see if I can see if you are prepared to receive more truth about how even animals are eternal.

Thanks. Atheism is not Mormonism. Animals have evolved with a different set of tools, which are not necessarily inferior to human evolutionary traits. There is not a heirarchy of intelligence in my husband's view. There is what is necessary to survive, and who is able to survive the longest is at the top of the heirarchy.

 

Your post regarding intelligence of animals brought to mind some song lyrics. "Man is the dream of the dolphin."

Edited April 1, 2014 by saemo