Ssm And The Exploitation Of Children

[Bob Crockett]

I appreciate what you are asking and saying.

 

However, I have been accused of setting up the facts so as to force my position. So, in controvention to this accusation, I wanted to first present facts from the opposing view, and then give my opponents the chance to offer their impressions, before presenting my own facts and conclusions and asking for their impressions.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You don't engender a lot of sympathy for one who agrees conceptually with your position. I'd like to see scientific studies that say that gay parents are bad parents.

[Daniel2]

[wenglund]

Not sure why you need to keep asking the obvious.  Without looking at each of the studies in detail, I imagine that they are all based on some scientific objective inquiries, set out their conclusions, and leave the door open to additional studies.  Science is never "beyond doubt."  There is no final word.  But that acknowledgement does not mean there isn't a lot of evidence to support the position and that it would take some serious counter-evidence to begin to cause doubts. 

 

Excellent. That sounds reasonable.

 

In response to Bob's request, and at the risk of being falsely accused of bigotry by Val for presenting opposing views for public consideration, here are reports of a recent study which draw into question the generalized findings of the previous studies, and perhaps even debunks them: see HERE and  HERE and HERE.

 

And, in the interest of fairness, here are reactions to the recent study, alledgedly debunking the debunking: see HERE and HERE and HERE.

 

As a help in deciding between the competing positions, here are some facts that may assist the reader in drawing their own conclusions:

 

At best, only about 25% of homosexual ever enter into a legalized relationship, of which only a portion of them get married where available, as compared with 95% for heterosexuals. (See HERE) 

 

So, are we talking about a demographic that is largely bent on legitimacy or marriage?

Very few homosexual couples live in the same household (30%--see HERE), and fewer still end up with children (only about 19%), and this number is on the decline (see HERE and HERE and HERE and HERE and HERE), as compared with 66% for heterosexuals, which number is also in decline (see HERE).

 

So, again, are we talking about a demographic that is clamoring for children?

Furthermore, homosexual relationships are disproportionately transient, even when legalized. In terms of relationship longevity, only 29% of homosexual couples stay together up to 7 years, as compared with 70% of traditional marriage lasting more than 10 years. (See HERE)  And, homosexuals are 2 to 3 times more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples. (See HERE and HERE)

This may be due in part to several factors. First, the disproportionately high rates of infidelity among homosexuals--4.5 - 25% monogamy as compared with 70 - 88% among heterosexuals. (See HERE and HERE) Second, the disproportionately high rates of promiscuity among homosexuals--they average 20 - 106 sexual partners per year, as compared to heterosexuals who average 8 per lifetime. (See HERE and HERE) And, third, the disproportionately high rate of domestic violence among homosexuals--4.6 - 5.8% annually, as compared to 0.035 - 0.27% annually for heterosexuals. (See HERE and HERE and HERE)

So, yet once more are we talking about a demographic largely intent on providing stable and safe homes for children?

In fact, for most of the 19% of same-sex households raising children, the vast majority of the children came from prior opposite-sex relationships. (See HERE and HERE and HERE)

This suggest to me that, by and large, and contrary to the propagandized impression, not only aren't homosexuals clamoring to raise children, nor desperate to get married so as to raise those children in a stable and safe home, but most of the children they have been raising came from breaking up traditional homes.

 

Others, of course, are free to think otherwise.

Yet, given the uncontroversial and relatively undisputed view that divorce and other unstable parental relationships can have serious and lasting ill-effects on children (see HERE and HERE and HERE and HERE and HERE and HERE), and given the even less controversial view that domestic violence has a debilitating impact on kids (see HERE and HERE and HERE and HERE and HERE), and given the significantly higher rates at which divorce and domestic violence occur among homosexuals, what conclusions may reasonably be drawn regarding the claim that children of homosexual parents fare as well as those raised by heterosexuals, including and more particularly those homes with two biological parents?

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited February 19, 2014 by wenglund

[EllenMaksoud]

As intimated before, i hold little expectation of changing anyone's mind on the topic of mangling the legal definition of marriage, and for the most part i consider it a foregone conclusion in the not-to-distant future.

 

So, the intent of this thread isn't to debate whether SSM should be legalized or not.

 

Instead I wish to discuss how it was that many in and out of our religion went from condemning to embracing homosexuality by way of government sanction, and the realized and potential consequences resulting therefrom.

 

In other words, I wish to examine how children have been used to convince good and decent people to march towards Gomorah, and how the sins of those marching fathers, so to speak, will be visited upon the heads of the children.

 

I propose at least four parts to this discussion:

 

1. How adults have been duped into supporting SSM through the exploitation of children.

2. How children have been duped into supporting SSM, thereby being exploited.

3. How organizations bent on exploiting children have been involved in the gay and SSM movement.

4. How children may have been and may yet be harmed, and thus exploited, because of the movement to legalize SSM

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I would actually have preferred to have loving, well balanced parents ... including gay ones if that is what it took.

 

My contact with the gay community has not been extensive, though a lesbian woman I know says that lesbian couples have lots of problems. I do not know if they have more issues than hetro couples.

 

My hetro family completely trashed me and acted like complete red necks when in fact I was not anything but hetro. Hmmm it is almost sounding like you are the pot calling the kettle black.

[Senator]

 

Others, of course, are free to think otherwise.

 

 

Thank you!

 

For the sake of discussion, lets grant the assumption that all your links, sources and the studies they cite are valid and reliable. (I certainly don't have the time nor inclination to read through all of them)

 

For the sake of brevity, let me attempt to restate you conclusion as I'm understanding them.

 

That:

 

The proponents of SSM are trying to disingenuously woo the support of the populace through the means of false propaganda. Correct?

 

The false propaganda being that:

 

The same-sex couples that want marriage and marriage rights, really don't want marriage and marriage rights.

The same-sex couples that want children and parental rights, really don't want children and parental rights.

The same-sex couples that want longevity in committed relationships, really don't want longevity in committed relationships.

The same-sex couples that want stable homes, really don't want stable homes.

 

etc..etc

 

Is this correct?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

So, are we talking about a demographic that is largely bent on legitimacy or marriage?

 

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade,

This is largely what I see this whole issue as. I don't see it as a" Homo's are denied a right". It is more about making something legitimate. Make those things that are wrong appear right. And it is something I will never support no matter how much the definition of a word gets mangled. Perhaps, even in this thread, you should focus more on this. But in retrospect I think you did a great job in doing just that in your other threads.

[wenglund]

I would actually have preferred to have loving, well balanced parents ... including gay ones if that is what it took.

 

My contact with the gay community has not been extensive, though a lesbian woman I know says that lesbian couples have lots of problems. I do not know if they have more issues than hetro couples.

 

My hetro family completely trashed me and acted like complete red necks when in fact I was not anything but hetro. Hmmm it is almost sounding like you are the pot calling the kettle black.

 

In this thread, I am not taking a position of extremes, where heterosexual families are viewed as pristine and invariably wonderful, and homosexual "families' as viewed as inherently evil and dispicable.

 

Rather, among several things, I am practically considering several child-centric claims made to promote gay marriage.

 

To me, the facts suggest that children of gay parents haven't fallen through the societal cracks, and are even being cared for more by the government than children of heterosexuals.

 

i also believe the facts suggest that children of homosexual parents do NOT fare as well as children of heterosexual parents, and are at greater risk for realizing the kinds of problems associated with divorce and domestic violence.

 

Others are free to think otherwise.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Thank you!

 

For the sake of discussion, lets grant the assumption that all your links, sources and the studies they cite are valid and reliable. (I certainly don't have the time nor inclination to read through all of them)

 

For the sake of brevity, let me attempt to restate you conclusion as I'm understanding them.

 

That:

 

The proponents of SSM are trying to disingenuously woo the support of the populace through the means of false propaganda. Correct?

 

The false propaganda being that:

 

The same-sex couples that want marriage and marriage rights, really don't want marriage and marriage rights.

The same-sex couples that want children and parental rights, really don't want children and parental rights.

The same-sex couples that want longevity in committed relationships, really don't want longevity in committed relationships.

The same-sex couples that want stable homes, really don't want stable homes.

 

etc..etc

 

Is this correct?

 

No. See my post above.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[EllenMaksoud]

In this thread, I am not taking a position of extremes, where heterosexual families are viewed as pristine and invariably wonderful, and homosexual "families' as viewed as inherently evil and dispicable.

 

Rather, among several things, I am practically considering several child-centric claims made to promote gay marriage.

 

To me, the facts suggest that children of gay parents haven't fallen through the societal cracks, and are even being cared for more by the government than children of heterosexuals.

 

i also believe the facts suggest that children of homosexual parents do NOT fare as well as children of heterosexual parents, and are at greater risk for realizing the kinds of problems associated with divorce and domestic violence.

 

Others are free to think otherwise.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I  don't know if there is a difference. All I can do is to live my own life in a way that I believe is pleasing to Heavenly Father.

[wenglund]

Wade,

This is largely what I see this whole issue as. I don't see it as a" Homo's are denied a right". It is more about making something legitimate. Make those things that are wrong appear right. And it is something I will never support no matter how much the definition of a word gets mangled. Perhaps, even in this thread, you should focus more on this. But in retrospect I think you did a great job in doing just that in your other threads.

 

I appreciate the suggestion. However, there is a method to my madness and value in highlighting the explotation of children in the ardent attempt legitimize adult sexaul perversion.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund

[wenglund]

I  don't know if there is a difference. All I can do is to live my own life in a way that I believe is pleasing to Heavenly Father.

 

This is a good philosophy to live by personally, though i don't know if it works very well when instituting or evaluating public policy.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[thesometimesaint]

wengland:

 

"i also believe the facts suggest that children of homosexual parents do NOT fare as well as children of heterosexual parents, and are at greater risk for realizing the kinds of problems associated with divorce and domestic violence.".

 

The research to date is ambiguous. Most probably because SSM, let alone SS divorce, is such a new sociological thing. It may well turn out that there is a link, but so far no such link has been established.

[omni]

As intimated before, i hold little expectation of changing anyone's mind on the topic of mangling the legal definition of marriage, and for the most part i consider it a foregone conclusion in the not-to-distant future.

 

So, the intent of this thread isn't to debate whether SSM should be legalized or not.

 

Instead I wish to discuss how it was that many in and out of our religion went from condemning to embracing homosexuality by way of government sanction, and the realized and potential consequences resulting therefrom.

 

In other words, I wish to examine how children have been used to convince good and decent people to march towards Gomorah, and how the sins of those marching fathers, so to speak, will be visited upon the heads of the children.

 

I propose at least four parts to this discussion:

 

1. How adults have been duped into supporting SSM through the exploitation of children.

2. How children have been duped into supporting SSM, thereby being exploited.

3. How organizations bent on exploiting children have been involved in the gay and SSM movement.

4. How children may have been and may yet be harmed, and thus exploited, because of the movement to legalize SSM

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

You would have made an excellent point had you replaced "gay" and "SSM" with "19th century polygamy".

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I appreciate the suggestion. However, there is a method to my madness and value in highlighting the explotation of children in the ardent attempt legitimize adult sexaul perversion.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund

I think I get that and think that it would prove to be a good exercise. I had certainly no idea about this and the facts behind it. And all you have gotten for it is dismissals. Sometimes it is really hard to have a dialogue when people come to the table with their minds already made up of what you said before they even read what you said. Even with this I think you should continue and I am sure you will.

[The Nehor]

Hey, I'm sympathetic, but how about some studies to support your position rather than studies that don't. I don't consider anecdotal statements about a 9 year old kid forced to watch his gay parents have sex as supporting anything at all. I've handled cases where hetero parents do lots lots worse.

That was a story I posted. It was a joke; the story is not real.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You would have made an excellent point had you replaced "gay" and "SSM" with "19th century polygamy".

I personally don't think I have seen anything more irrelevant brought up in this thread than what you just did.

[The Nehor]

I personally don't think I have seen anything more irrelevant brought up in this thread than what you just did.

I don't know; the first post in the thread is a decent contender.

[wenglund]

wengland:

 

"i also believe the facts suggest that children of homosexual parents do NOT fare as well as children of heterosexual parents, and are at greater risk for realizing the kinds of problems associated with divorce and domestic violence.".

 

The research to date is ambiguous. Most probably because SSM, let alone SS divorce, is such a new sociological thing. It may well turn out that there is a link, but so far no such link has been established.

 

To me, the research isn't ambiguous about the effects of divorce and domestic violence on children, nor is the research ambiguous about the strikingly higher rate of divorce and violence among homosexuals.

 

You are free to think otherwise.

 

At the very least, though, we agree that the claim that children of same-sex parents fare as well as those with heterosexual parents, is unfounded.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

You would have made an excellent point had you replaced "gay" and "SSM" with "19th century polygamy".

 

Actually, the point was more excellent as stated because, unlike with you, my point was on topic and i have been and will yet present data to back up my assertions.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[The Nehor]

Actually, the point was more excellent as stated because, unlike with you, my point was on topic and i have been and will yet present data to back up my assertions.

 -

Stay tuned for the next thrilling episode of "Wade Explains It All".

[thesometimesaint]

To me, the research isn't ambiguous about the effects of divorce and domestic violence on children, nor is the research ambiguous about the strikingly higher rate of divorce and violence among homosexuals.

 

You are free to think otherwise.

 

At the very least, though, we agree that the claim that children of same-sex parents fare as well as those with heterosexual parents, is unfounded.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

There you go with your idiosyncratic definitions.

http://www.childtrends.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MarriageRB602.pdf

[Senator]

No.

 

 

 

 

So, the proponents of SSM are not trying to disingenuously woo the support of the populace through the means of false propaganda.

 

 

 

 

 

.

[EllenMaksoud]

That was a story I posted. It was a joke; the story is not real.

I worked with several NPO's doing volunteer work. I am going to give you a TMI warning because some do not seem able to handle the blunt truth.

 

 

 

There were some twins I ran into whose doper parents had castrated the little boy and given him Estrogen. The Parents died. The twins were around 19 the last time I saw them. They look alike, and are very messed up and I pray that they are happier and are alive. Just talk to some cops, firemen and social workers. It gets worse, much worse.

 

I have a son whose son in law works for Homeland Security. He says most of their budget is to stop the illegal trafficing of young women. So, I would suggest that people do the best they can and raise their children before a holy God.

[omni]

I personally don't think I have seen anything more irrelevant brought up in this thread than what you just did.

Awesome! I was only hoping to make it into the top five.

[Senator]

At the very least, though, we agree that the claim that children of same-sex parents fare as well as those with heterosexual parents, is unfounded.

 

 

 

Statistically!

 

And this is what your argument is based on here. You are wanting to form conclusions (and ultimately public policy) regarding individual rights based upon statistical comparisons of the larger demographics.

 

I think this approach is faulty.

 

First you will have to be consisted to employ this approach across the board to all demographics. 

 

What if, in our demographic comparisons, we find that black Americans have statically higher instances of divorce, infidelity....etc. Children would be at greater risk to encounter the ills in such homes. Then what?  We aught to ban all Black couples from raising children?

 

Next you have to erect thresholds by which any demographic would need to meet in order for individuals to qualify to deemed worthy to raise kids. What numbers do you arbitrarily set?