ALarson Posted February 3, 2014 Author Posted February 3, 2014 But since new research has come out, we now know that Pres Kimball was wrong. Again, thanks. Pretty upsetting to realize how wrong so many of our past Prophets have been. Will we be saying this about Thomas S. Monson in 20 years?
ALarson Posted February 3, 2014 Author Posted February 3, 2014 I am the first to admit that I am a bit removed from the church these days. But I have to say, I am quite shocked by the church essay. These are statements that are completely in conflict with the years of teaching I had growing up that the American Indians were Lamanites. There was no question then that indians were the direct descendants of Lehi. And the thought that they were just a small part of the general population is completely foreign to what I was taught growing up. Was I the only one receiving these teachings by the church? It kinda sounds like it from some of the comments on this thread.This. I guess that past Prophets were all wrong. I and many others who I've discussed this new essay with feel exactly as you expressed above. And one of them is a Bishop. He thought he'd get answers to help his struggling ward members with these newly written essays. So far, they've only raised new doubts and new questions.
Buzzard Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 First of all, I am not a DNA expert. I read what others have written, I try to understand it, I am reasonably intelligent, that's about all I'll claim.So, with large grains of salt, here is my .02:It's obvious to anyone who reads the BOM that the peoples there lived among others, and probably were a semi-distinct people, but over the centuries, interbred with those other people. And why would one suppose that the American civilization after the visit of Christ was ONLY comprised of Lehi's descendants? The calamities described in 3rd Nephi would have befallen the entire civilization, not just a small discrete group. And for hundred of years after, the BOM tells us there were no "ites",, giving more ample opportunities for genetic dilution. After this era, "Lamanites" referred to the wicked group, not a particular ethnicity. It's reasonable to assume that more Lehites self-identified as Nephites during the time that ended with their near destruction, after which 1400 more years of mixing whatever remnant was left with other populations were left. And yet, there are still some traces of Eurasian DNA in American populations.One final thought. As the church has become established in Mongolia, it's my understanding that 11 of the 12 tribes of Israel have been identified through Patriarchal Blessings. Interesting. So perhaps, just perhaps, East Asian DNA = Israelite DNA, just not tribe of Judah or Levi/Living in Jerusalem at time of Christ DNA.I'm sure someone will come on here to shoot this down, but the more I look at DNA, the more ambiguous it seems, and the more I agree with Elder Oaks. I frankly think that both LDS and anti-LDS make big mistakes trying to "prove" the Book of Mormon true or false via imperfect science, be it DNA, Archaeology, or other disciplines. 1
The Nehor Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 What? To confirm if those identified by our Prophets as Lamanites are descendants of Lehi. Are you saying that we don't know the genealogy of Lehi? If we are to believe what President Spenser W. Kimball, he stated that there were 60 million Lamanties living in the Pacific and the Americas.So you have Lehi's DNA for comparison? 2
stemelbow Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 Again, thanks. Pretty upsetting to realize how wrong so many of our past Prophets have been. Will we be saying this about Thomas S. Monson in 20 years? I don't see what's wrong with past prophets having been wrong about some things. People generally are wrong about many things during their lives.
ALarson Posted February 3, 2014 Author Posted February 3, 2014 I don't see what's wrong with past prophets having been wrong about some things. People generally are wrong about many things during their lives.I agree. But being wrong about who the Book of Mormon was written for and who the Lamanites are? And, stating now that none can even be found? Come on.
ALarson Posted February 3, 2014 Author Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) So you have Lehi's DNA for comparison?Don't be insulting. I know what you're doing and it's not going to work. You and I both know Lehi's ethnicity and lineage (unless you're now claiming that the Book of Mormon is in error on this). I guess you have to try to deflect though when you have no good answer. "According to the Book of Mormon, Lehi was a prophet who lived in Jerusalem during the reign of king Zedekiah (approximately 600 BC).[2] Lehi was an Israelite of the Tribe of Manasseh, and father to Nephi, another prominent prophet in the Book of Mormon." Edited February 3, 2014 by ALarson
The Nehor Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 Don't be insulting. I know what you're doing and it's not going to work. You and I both know Lehi's ethnicity and lineage (unless you're now claiming that the Book of Mormon is in error on this). I guess you have to try to deflect though when you have no good answer.I will continue to be insulting.So you have Manasseh's DNA then? Ephraim's? Abraham's?Or at least know it well enough to identify it and pick it out after over 2,600 years of genetic mixing? 3
ALarson Posted February 3, 2014 Author Posted February 3, 2014 I guess this is just one more topic that we have to shrug, throw our hands up in the air, and say "We don't know" or "This isn't important to know and we'll get the answers in the next life." Funny as I thought that past and current Prophets had spoken clearly on who the Lamanites were and that they are the Indians or Native Americans of today. They couldn't have been more clear on this.
ALarson Posted February 3, 2014 Author Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) I will continue to be insulting.So you have Manasseh's DNA then? Ephraim's? Abraham's?Or at least know it well enough to identify it and pick it out after over 2,600 years of genetic mixing?Are you really claiming that no Israelite DNA exists today? Edited February 3, 2014 by ALarson
halconero Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 Given gene flow, the Lehites' genetic material would have spread to most populations in the Americas a while back. If one defines a Lamanite as a descendant of Lehi, then it's likely most aboriginal americans could be considered Lamanites.
ALarson Posted February 3, 2014 Author Posted February 3, 2014 Nehor, if you are seriously claiming that there is no Israelite or Jewish DNA to test today, then there is no reasoning with you and I'm done responding to you. That is quite ridiculous. There IS Jewish DNA to test. There ARE Lamanites living today (if we are to believe our Prophets). Test the Jewish DNA - then test the Lamanites - then compare. Not too difficult.
stemelbow Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 I agree. But being wrong about who the Book of Mormon was written for and who the Lamanites are? And, stating now that none can even be found? Come on. I'd expect them to be wrong about some of this stuff. How could they possibly not? DNA analysis to determine origins of people looks to be pretty complicated stuff.
stemelbow Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 Nehor, if you are seriously claiming that there is no Israelite or Jewish DNA to test today, then there is no reasoning with you and I'm done responding to you. That is quite ridiculous. There IS Jewish DNA to test. There ARE Lamanites living today (if we are to believe our Prophets). Test the Jewish DNA - then test the Lamanites - then compare. Not too difficult. I liked this part of the article and find it refreshingly true: "At the present time, scientific consensus holds that the vast majority of Native Americans belong to sub-branches of the Y-chromosome haplogroups C and Q14 and the mitochondrial DNA haplogroups A, B, C, D, and X, all of which are predominantly East Asian.15 But the picture is not entirely clear. Continuing studies provide new insights, and some challenge previous conclusions. For example, a 2013 study states that as much as one-third of Native American DNA originated anciently in Europe or West Asia and was likely introduced into the gene pool before the earliest migration to the Americas.16 This study paints a more complex picture than is suggested by the prevailing opinion that all Native American DNA is essentially East Asian." The more I"ve considered this topic over the years, the more I realize its far too difficult to nail down direct connections. What in modern peoples would we expect to see to draw a direct connection to Lehi? How would we know? 3
Stroopwafel Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 I guess this is just one more topic that we have to shrug, throw our hands up in the air, and say "We don't know" or "This isn't important to know and we'll get the answers in the next life." Funny as I thought that past and current Prophets had spoken clearly on who the Lamanites were and that they are the Indians or Native Americans of today. They couldn't have been more clear on this. It is as if members are doomed to forever keep their shelves well stacked (much less those who's shelf is already kaputt), this despite all the efforts at addressing the issues. Sadly, I feel this is really hopeless.
The Nehor Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 Are you really claiming that no Israelite DNA exists today?No, I am saying that your simplistic take on the evidence to score rhetorical points makes you either a dupe or a deceiver. If Lehi and company interbred with another larger population it is unlikely that the genetic markers would still be there. If I were teleported back in time to the Americas in 600 BC and married and had children would you expect modern DNA tests to show that the Native Americans are all actually European Caucasians? Even if after all that time most, if not all, of the people on the continent would by that time have me as an ancestor? 2
ALarson Posted February 3, 2014 Author Posted February 3, 2014 I'd expect them to be wrong about some of this stuff. How could they possibly not? DNA analysis to determine origins of people looks to be pretty complicated stuff. That's not the point. Either the Lamanites are descendants of the Jewish Lehi or they aren't. It doesn't matter whether or not they understood DNA testing years ago. What matters is that we do now and it isn't supporting what has been written and spoken about the Lamanites by our past and current Prophets who speak to God. Surely God understands the complicated DNA stuff, right? The Lamanite DNA is of Asian ancestry. That contradicts what we've been taught. This essay is really causing doubts and questions (at least with many active Mormons I've discussed it with).
ALarson Posted February 3, 2014 Author Posted February 3, 2014 If Lehi and company interbred with another larger population it is unlikely that the genetic markers would still be there. Ok. Now I know that you really do not understand how DNA works. Thanks for confirming that.
The Nehor Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) Ok. Now I know that you really do not understand how DNA works. Thanks for confirming that.No, I actually have a very good idea. Continue with your numbskull tirade though.If you are seriously arguing that genetic drift does not sometimes eliminate DNA markers over time and that this happens more often in small interbreeding populations then you do not get genetics.Continue trying to tear down the faith of members with your bad science if you wish. Edited February 3, 2014 by The Nehor
ALarson Posted February 3, 2014 Author Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) No, I actually have a very good idea. Continue with your numbskull tirade though.Ok, resort to name calling. Now I really know that you have nothing to add. Again, thanks for the confirmation that you are not knowledgeable regarding DNA testing. I suggest you go read up on it before you continue posting. When you state things like "If Lehi and company interbred with another larger population it is unlikely that the genetic markers would still be there", it really is astounding that anyone would believe that. Of course Jewish genetic markers would still exist in the Lamanites today. Edited February 3, 2014 by ALarson
Buzzard Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 That's not the point. Either the Lamanites are descendants of the Jewish Lehi or they aren't. Except Lehi wasn't Jewish. He was from Manesseh, so a different mother. Isn't it Mitochondrial DNA from the mother that survives? We don't know the lineage of Zoram, I thought the lineage of Ishmael was stated, but couldn't find it via a quick perusal of 1st Nephi.You see why it's perhaps not so cut and dry after all? 2
thatjimguy Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 I will continue to be insulting. There is zero reason to be insulting to get your point across....stop it. 1
ALarson Posted February 3, 2014 Author Posted February 3, 2014 Except Lehi wasn't Jewish. He was from Manesseh, so a different mother. Isn't it Mitochondrial DNA from the mother that survives? We don't know the lineage of Zoram, I thought the lineage of Ishmael was stated, but couldn't find it via a quick perusal of 1st Nephi.You see why it's perhaps not so cut and dry after all?Well, I disagree (at least partially even though I know what you're saying), but it doesn't matter. Lamanite DNA has tested to be of Asian origin.
The Nehor Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 I suggest you go read up on it before you continue posting. When you state things like "If Lehi and company interbred with another larger population it is unlikely that the genetic markers would still be there", it really is astounding that anyone would believe that. Of course Jewish genetic markers would still exist in the Lamanites today. I did not resort to namecalling. I chose to use it because it seemed fitting. Why do people think they can be sarcastic and disingenuous but that people calling them on it is somehow over the line?And no, you are WRONG. Genetic drift eradicates genetic markers in populations all the time. If two ethnicities mix, especially if they are in a small interbreeding population then the odds are good that eventually it will be had by 100% of the population or be taken out. A genetic marker is (almost 100%) proof of a relationship. The absence of a marker is not proof of no relation.This is basic stuff. The mutations we track are not guaranteed to be passed on in perpetuity.Again this assumes that Lehi had "Jewish" DNA. We can track some mutations but that does not mean the DNA markers/mutations we have traced to Israelite lineage had become universal or almost universal in that population by 600 BC. 2
The Nehor Posted February 3, 2014 Posted February 3, 2014 There is zero reason to be insulting to get your point across....stop it.Actually there are reasons. God does it.
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