The Proclamation Is Doctrine

[Calm]

Surely we are not ordaining Bishops that are that clueless.

I have no clue about how much dialogue about homosexual marriage is taking place in Samoa or Germany or Singapore (perhaps i will remember to ask my brother) for example. If it is not a political issue for a country, if it is accepted or even if it wasn't and the couple didn't want a legal ceremony but only a religious one, perhaps the bishop would assume that if sexually active, better to be in a covenanted/committed relationship than not...or something else....hard to imagine with the type of chatter and political noise going on here in the US, but I doubt it is the same way all over the world. Edited January 14, 2014 by calmoriah

[David T]

FYI, Something I recently noticed - in Primary Sharing Time later this year, in October (in time for conference?) , the proclamation will be presented to Children as equated with the scriptures, and as a modern day Ten Commandments, given to prophets directly from God.

 

“The Family: A Proclamation to the World” Came from God to Help My Family"

“These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full” (John 15:11).

...

Week 1: “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” came from God to help my family.

Identify the doctrine: Show the children pictures of the Ten Commandments and the scriptures. Ask, “Where did these come from?” Explain that they came from God through His prophets to help us know what to do. Show the children a copy of “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” and explain that it came from God through His latter-day prophets to help our families.

 

 

Yep. They're going there.

Edited January 14, 2014 by David T

[Stone holm]

I have no clue about how much dialogue about homosexual marriage is taking place in Samoa or Germany or Singapore (perhaps i will remember to ask my brother) for example. If it is not a political issue for a country, if it is accepted or even if it wasn't and the couple didn't want a legal ceremony but only a religious one, perhaps the bishop would assume that if sexually active, better to be in a covenanted/committed relationship than not...or something else....hard to imagine with the type of chatter and political noise going on here in the US, but I doubt it is the same way all over the world.

 

 

Wow...that would in fact be amazing if a Bishop not exposed to Church being involved in this political issue, on his own made a rational determination that it was better for them to be in a committed relationship than sexually active....but somehow I just can't imagine this happening.

[Daniel2]

FYI, Something I recently noticed - in Primary Sharing Time later this year, in October (in time for conference?) , the proclamation will be presented to Children as equated with the scriptures, and as a modern day Ten Commandments, given to prophets directly from God.

 

 

Yep. They're going there.

I can only imagine how my own children will come to view this teaching in primary or Sunday School with confusion and resentment. While such teaching angers me, I bite my tongue because I support my kids. I imagine these kinds of lessons will eventually serve to drive a wedge between my children and Mormonism.

[Stone holm]

FYI, Something I recently noticed - in Primary Sharing Time later this year, in October (in time for conference?) , the proclamation will be presented to Children as equated with the scriptures, and as a modern day Ten Commandments, given to prophets directly from God.

 

 

Yep. They're going there.

Although I don't approve of SSM, I have a feeling this waving of the Proclamation like its Moses coming down from Mt Sinai is going to eventually be a bad idea.

[Rob Osborn]

Although I don't approve of SSM, I have a feeling this waving of the Proclamation like its Moses coming down from Mt Sinai is going to eventually be a bad idea.

I think the lesson outline for October is great. Nothing about SSM is presented in the lesson. It briefly discusses the Proclamation, the role of family, mother and fathers and family unity. The Church is doing nothing but encouraging the same ideals it always did have and is part of the core doctrine of the church- the family.

[hoo rider]

I think the lesson outline for October is great. Nothing about SSM is presented in the lesson. It briefly discusses the Proclamation, the role of family, mother and fathers and family unity. The Church is doing nothing but encouraging the same ideals it always did have and is part of the core doctrine of the church- the family.

Are you implying that the Church has taught that The Family Proclamation is similar to scriptures (as in coming from God) in the past?  If so, CFR. 

 

If not, you're missing the point of this discussion.  We aren't discussing whether the church has taught traditional family values previously (I think we all agree that it has).   We're discussing whether the Family Proclamation is doctrine or well-reasoned opinion.  

[Rob Osborn]

Are you implying that the Church has taught that The Family Proclamation is similar to scriptures (as in coming from God) in the past?  If so, CFR. 

 

If not, you're missing the point of this discussion.  We aren't discussing whether the church has taught traditional family values previously (I think we all agree that it has).   We're discussing whether the Family Proclamation is doctrine or well-reasoned opinion.  

Only the naysayers claim it isn't doctrine. True followers of Christ already know its doctrine.

 

You are out of the thread.

[David T]

Only the naysayers claim it isn't doctrine. True followers of Christ already know its doctrine.

"No true Scotsman..."

[Stone holm]

Only the naysayers claim it isn't doctrine. True followers of Christ already know its doctrine.

 

So its only false followers who question whether the entire thing is "doctrine" -- glad you can sort out the sheep and goats so easily.  I suspect that many of the "true followers" were saying the same thing about BRM's statements regarding the Priesthood Ban as well -- just a guess, that is before he recanted.

[theplains]

Can't imagine a Bishop not getting bounced out of the Church for having performed such a wedding -- he might be let back in by rebaptism,ly tough to avoid getting bounced in the first place.

 

If a Mormon bishop commits adultery or fornication, does it also warrant a re-baptizing

or is performing such a wedding more sinful and thus necessitates re-baptism?  Is

there a church limit on the number of times a sinful bishop can be baptized?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Stone holm]

If a Mormon bishop commits adultery or fornication, does it also warrant a re-baptizing

or is performing such a wedding more sinful and thus necessitates re-baptism?  Is

there a church limit on the number of times a sinful bishop can be baptized?

 

Thanks,

Jim

Not sure I understand this comment. Rebaptism is the only way back into the Church after excommunication regardless of the reason for excommunication. I can think of only one act for which rebaptism is not permitted and that is a sex change, but there may be more.

[Stone holm]

Not sure I understand this comment. Rebaptism is the only way back into the Church after excommunication regardless of the reason for excommunication. I can think of only one act for which rebaptism is not permitted and that is a sex change, but there may be more.

One of the issues governing the seriousness of the act is the extent to which it reflects upon the reputation of the Church. So doing an unauthorized act which is intended to become an adverse media event is going to bring a heavy price down upon the participants.

[Rodeo]

So its only false followers who question whether the entire thing is "doctrine" -- glad you can sort out the sheep and goats so easily.  I suspect that many of the "true followers" were saying the same thing about BRM's statements regarding the Priesthood Ban as well -- just a guess, that is before he recanted.

I think he was saying it was doctrine, not that it was true or false or subject to change later.

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-instructs-leaders-on-same-sex-marriage

"We urge you to review and teach Church members the doctrine contained in “The Family: A Proclamation to the World.”

[Stone holm]

I think he was saying it was doctrine, not that it was true or false or subject to change later.http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-instructs-leaders-on-same-sex-marriage"We urge you to review and teach Church members the doctrine contained in “The Family: A Proclamation to the World.”

But if you read the sentence it clearly states "the doctrine contained in" which is not the same as saying. "The Family: A Proclamation to the World" is doctrine. The same thing is basically said of many things which are not doctrinal such as the Apochrypha.

[jwhitlock]

But if you read the sentence it clearly states "the doctrine contained in" which is not the same as saying. "The Family: A Proclamation to the World" is doctrine. The same thing is basically said of many things which are not doctrinal such as the Apochrypha.

 

Yeah, and right after that it says "Ignore the things in the Proclamation that are not doctrine."

 

Got any other tortured spin you want to put on it?

[Stone holm]

Yeah, and right after that it says "Ignore the things in the Proclamation that are not doctrine."

 

Got any other tortured spin you want to put on it?

Nope plain reading of the sentence is good enough for me see no reason to wave it like an ideological banner, fully accept girls are girls and boys are boys, and the 1950's were joyful. Actually they were joyfull for me, but I was part of a white upper middle class merchant family in a small town in the Midwest.

[Rodeo]

I did find this-

In 1995, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued “The Family: A Proclamation to the World.” This proclamation is a declaration and reaffirmation of doctrines and practices that prophets have stated repeatedly throughout the history of the Church. It contains principles that are vital to the happiness and well-being of every family. Family members should study the proclamation and should live by its precepts.

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e1fa5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=5fd30f9856c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1

"There are many voices in the world," Brother Brandt explained during a Church News interview. "And they continue to espouse a variety of views. The purpose of the statements has been to clarify truth, and the same is true for proclamations. For example, the family has been under assault for some time. The proclamation on the family was a way of reaffirming the doctrine of the family in God's plan."

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/articles/36742/Proclamations-declarations-clarify-reaffirm-LDS-doctrine.html

" The answers to that question as well as the key elements of the doctrine of the family are found in the family proclamation. President Gordon B. Hinckley (1910–2008) said that the proclamation was “a declaration and reaffirmation of standards, doctrines, and practices” that this Church has always had."

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2011/03/teaching-the-doctrine-of-the-family?lang=eng

" In 1995, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued “The Family: A Proclamation to the World.” This proclamation is a declaration and reaffirmation of doctrines and practices that prophets have stated repeatedly throughout the history of the Church. It contains principles that are vital to the happiness and well-being of every family:"

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org.au/article/proclamation-on-the-family

"Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted."

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

The last paragraph sums up what is doctrine. Proclamations, the Articles of faith, declarations, and the 4 standard works.

[Calm]

If a Mormon bishop commits adultery or fornication, does it also warrant a re-baptizing

or is performing such a wedding more sinful and thus necessitates re-baptism?  Is

there a church limit on the number of times a sinful bishop can be baptized?

 

Thanks,

Jim

All the bishops and former bishops that I know who have committed adultery have been excommunicated and as far as I know would never be allowed to be a bishop again...though perhaps I am wrong in this.

 

There is, I believe, a three rebaptism max.  After that they may restore them after the person is dead, but I believe that they do not wish to keep heaping condemnation upon his head due to constant breaking of covenants (it is not about forgiving him).

[jwhitlock]

Nope plain reading of the sentence is good enough for me see no reason to wave it like an ideological banner, fully accept girls are girls and boys are boys, and the 1950's were joyful. Actually they were joyfull for me, but I was part of a white upper middle class merchant family in a small town in the Midwest.

 

So now the Proclamation is just an "ideological banner" from the 1950's. And since you've spun it as "not doctrine", you can pick and choose what you want to accept out of it.

 

Thanks for clarifying your opposition to the principles in it.

[Stone holm]

So now the Proclamation is just an "ideological banner" from the 1950's. And since you've spun it as "not doctrine", you can pick and choose what you want to accept out of it.

 

Thanks for clarifying your opposition to the principles in it.

You are welcome.

[BCSpace]

According to a new church statement hot off the presses:

 

 

We can debate here if we think it is, but it is clear how the Church and its leaders feel about it.

 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-instructs-leaders-on-same-sex-marriage

 

There was no need for any Church leader to declare it's 'doctrinicity'.  Being published by the Church automatically made it official doctrine.

[Stone holm]

There was no need for any Church leader to declare it's 'doctrinicity'.  Being published by the Church automatically made it official doctrine.

No.

[BCSpace]

No.

 

Yes.  That is how you hear it in any teacher prep class.  All the elements of the Church's view of doctrine in my siggy have been taught previously in a variety of sources.  One of them being Teaching, No Greater Call.

[Coreyb]

Its been presented by the 12 and the 3, now if its just sustained by the church and placed in the cannon this discussion would be over