Do Hebraisms In The Late War Undermine The Ones In The Book Of Mormon?

[maklelan]

I don't read biblical Hebrew, which would be necessary to find them, since that type of Hebraism would probably not have been carried over in English translation. "In Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar it is stated that "Two negatives in the same sentence do not neutralize each other but make the negation the more emphatic" (Kautzch 1909:483)." This quote is taken from "Double Negatives in the Book of Mormon? Yes! Yes!" by Barbara Fowler, which has lists of double negatives on Book of Mormon manuscripts that did not make it to print. There are too many examples to dismiss as scribal errors.

 

Gesenius describes specific constructions that use a limited number of prepositions and prefixes connected with the words "there is" and "there is not." The examples you share from 4 Ne 1:15–17 don't fit the constructions described in Gesenius. There the double negative with "there is not" would occur in the first item in the list, not be absent from the first and appear in the second, third, etc. On the other hand, series of "there is no," not uncommonly ended with "nor no" in the prose of the early 19th century, matching 4 Ne 1:15–17 quite closely. See the following:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=Y0kbAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA90&dq=%22nor+no%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xuFuUqPyHOmkyQGV7YCYCA&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22nor%20no%22&f=false

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=m-Q9AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA265&dq=%22nor+no%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xuFuUqPyHOmkyQGV7YCYCA&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22nor%20no%22&f=false

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=nAUKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PT575&dq=%22nor+no%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xuFuUqPyHOmkyQGV7YCYCA&ved=0CFwQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=%22nor%20no%22&f=false

[canard78]

"came/come to pass" in Book of Mormon is about 1476 total. if you count both tenses, as I do at http://premormon.com/resources/r003/003Smith.pdf , or at http://www.scribd.com/lighthorseharry/d/39997996-It-Came-to-Pass-in-the-Bible-and-Book-of-Mormon .

Thanks. I'd only done a comparison of "came to pass" - I'll have a look at "come to pass" in TLW when I get the chance.

[canard78]

Of course, the Hebraisms prove nothing.

I agree with you. Which is I've proposed they be removed from the list of "admissible evidence" for the BoM.

[canard78]

Saying things succinctly is not always seen as a virtue, especially if one is an author who is paid by the word.

Do you find the Count of Monte Cristo (the unabridged version) "comical"? Do you believe that the author intended it to be 'at least for himself'?

So you find all the titles for God and Christ in the Bible amusing? Do you think in those ceremonies where they announce all the titles of royalty that this is considered to be for pure entertainment only, part of a comedy act?

Have you read much ancient poetry?

Other times considered such things as indicative of respect, not for amusement. When one starts to read works from over 100 years ago, it is problematic to assume a social context identical to our own just as it would be to assume that someone writing about their life in India or Korea would see things the same way as we do.

Why not simply take Hunt at his word why he was writing that way in order to teach children to love to read the Bible?

Thanks. When people are faced with challenging information the easiest reply is dismissal through derision. It's not very sophisticated nor effective in the long run.

[Stargazer]

I agree with you. Which is I've proposed they be removed from the list of "admissible evidence" for the BoM.

 

OK, but I said they don't PROVE anything.  Find me anything at all that does.  There is nothing that proves it.  Even the strongest geographical evidence, which is Nahom, the Frankincense trade route, and Bountiful, prove nothing.  At best they are persuasive only, and I repeat, that is at best.  If the Hebraisms were completely absent this would be a ding against the book, possibly.  Something that should be there that isn't -- if Lehi and Nephi were really Hebrew speakers with Hebrew literary background.

 

I wouldn't remove Hebraisms from the list, I would merely move it to a different part of the list, the part where the less persuasive evidence would go.  If there were such a thing.

[canard78]

Interesting.  Never heard of any "hebraisms" in the D&C.

 

I guess this requires a CFR, preferably from a hebrew scholar.

 

Hi cdowis, I've started a new thread to discuss the D&C examples as it's a little off topic for this thread.

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/62090-do-hebraisms-in-the-doctrine-convenants-undermine-the-ones-in-the-book-of-mormon/

[Robert F. Smith]

I don't read biblical Hebrew, which would be necessary to find them, since that type of Hebraism would probably not have been carried over in English translation. "In Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar it is stated that "Two negatives in the same sentence do not neutralize each other but make the negation the more emphatic" (Kautzch 1909:483)." This quote is taken from "Double Negatives in the Book of Mormon? Yes! Yes!" by Barbara Fowler, which has lists of double negatives on Book of Mormon manuscripts that did not make it to print. There are too many examples to dismiss as scribal errors.

Thanks for the references, prisms.  I'll check into it and report back.

There are indeed a number of double negatives in the Book of Mormon, and they are probably not scribal errors -- they were likely dictated that way by Joseph.  Since the Book of Mormon was engraved in Egyptian, that presents no problem:  Ancient Egyptian uses double negatives.

[Robert F. Smith]

Again, probably my bad explanation. I'm not talking about errors from Joseph's scribes.

There are around 20 cases of the narrator in the Book of Mormon (Nephi, Mormon) and in the D&C making a clarification/correction using the phrase "in other words."

E.g.: "15 And this was their faith, that by so doing God would prosper them in the land, or in other words, if they were faithful in keeping the commandments of God that he would prosper them in the land; yea, warn them to flee, or to prepare for war, according to their danger;"

(Book of Mormon, Alma, Chapter 48)

The narrator makes the correction.

Some have given that as evidence of Mormon writing on Gold Plates - no opportunity to erase the characters, only the option to clarify or correct what has already been etched in gold.

My point was that this could just as easily be evidence of the challenge of Joseph dictating words of his own choice (either loose translation or inspired/uninspired authorship). If Joseph's dictating a modern text then saying "hang on, let me say that verse again" would give the came away. The "in other words" gives a way round it.

I was pointing out that when the BoM moves into a section that is a match to the KJV we don't ever see corrections half way through.

Your examples here are not very convincing, canard, but I have some which are:

Some years ago, the late Mary Lee Treat took into account the difficulty of making scribal erasures during engraving on metal plates,^[1] showing how scribes instead overcame their errors or infelicitous descriptions by inserting the word “or,” or the phrase “or rather” (and similar phrases) in order to correct of clarify an already engraven, unchangeable text, as at Mosiah 7:8,

 

And they stood before the king, and were permitted, or rather commanded, that they should answer the questions . . .

 

Another powerful indicator of authentic scribal activity in engraving metal plates is Alma 13:16, which clearly should have been inserted immediately following 13:12, but was instead dropped during ancient dictation due to a Nephite scribal failure to maintain the proper verse sequence due to verses 12 and 16 having the same final line (homoeoteleuton), i.e., the Nephite scribe (Mormon?) was unable to maintain sequence while moving his eyes back and forth from one text to the other, although he finally noticed his error and picked up the lost verse three verses later.  Herewith the correct sequence:

 

Alma 13:12-16

12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.

16 Now these ordinances were given after this manner, that thereby the people might look forward on the Son of God, it being a type of his order, or it being his order, and this that they might look forward to him for a remission of their sins, that they might enter into the rest of the Lord.

--------------------------- 

13 And now, my brethren, I would that ye should humble yourselves before God, and bring forth fruit meet for repentance, that ye may also enter into that rest.

14 Yea, humble yourselves even as the people in the days of Melchizedek, who was also a high priest after this same order which I have spoken, who also took upon him the high priesthood forever.

15 And it was this same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes; yea, even our father Abraham paid tithes of one-tenth part of all he possessed.

 

This was not a mistake of Oliver Cowdery as scribe for Joseph, nor of Joseph Smith as he dictated the continuous text in 1829.  For the Original Manuscript (O MS) itself contains the error, without any correction being attempted then (Oliver and the other scribes made regular corrections and insertions immediately, where they noticed the need) B nor in any subsequent manuscript or edition.  No one noticed the problem until it was pointed out recently by Grant Hardy.^[2]  This means that the error must go back to a much earlier scribe or editor, such as Mormon himself.

[1] Treat, “No Erasers,” Zarahemla Record, 13-14/5 (1981), reprinted in Recent Book of Mormon Developments (Independence: Zarahemla Research Foundation, 1984), I:54; D. Heater, “’No Erasers’ Update 2011,” Quetzal Codex, #2 (Spring 2011):2-5, online at http://www.quetzalarchaeology.org/ old-site/QC-Issue2.pdf ; Angela M. Crowell, “Hebraic Insights: ‘Or, or rather’ – A Newly Recognized Hebraism,” Qumran Quest, 5/2 (2000):1-3.

[2] G. R. Hardy, AThe Book of Mormon as a Literary (Written) Artifact,@ JBMS, 12/2 (2003):107-109,118.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

Gesenius describes specific constructions that use a limited number of prepositions and prefixes connected with the words "there is" and "there is not." The examples you share from 4 Ne 1:15–17 don't fit the constructions described in Gesenius. There the double negative with "there is not" would occur in the first item in the list, not be absent from the first and appear in the second, third, etc. On the other hand, series of "there is no," not uncommonly ended with "nor no" in the prose of the early 19th century, matching 4 Ne 1:15–17 quite closely. See the following:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=Y0kbAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA90&dq=%22nor+no%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xuFuUqPyHOmkyQGV7YCYCA&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22nor%20no%22&f=false

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=m-Q9AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA265&dq=%22nor+no%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xuFuUqPyHOmkyQGV7YCYCA&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22nor%20no%22&f=false

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=nAUKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PT575&dq=%22nor+no%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xuFuUqPyHOmkyQGV7YCYCA&ved=0CFwQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=%22nor%20no%22&f=false

Thanks, Daniel,

Do you think that any of the following double-negatives in the Book of Mormon could reflect a Hebrew Vorlage?  I show how they were later changed:

 

not find no fault                         > not find fault

no tongue cannot speak           > no tongue can speak

nor . . . could not                      > nor . . . could

nor no other way                      > nor any other way

nor they shall not                     > nor shall they  (2Isaiah 13:17)

none of these I cannot             > none of these can I

nor never will be                      > nor ever will be

never have no power               > never have power

[Robert F. Smith]

I agree with you. Which is I've proposed they be removed from the list of "admissible evidence" for the BoM.

Depends on which sort of "Hebraisms" you have in mind.  There are still plenty of them which are legitimate and very useful for apologetics.

[maklelan]

Thanks, Daniel,

Do you think that any of the following double-negatives in the Book of Mormon could reflect a Hebrew Vorlage?  I show how they were later changed:

 

not find no fault                         > not find fault

no tongue cannot speak           > no tongue can speak

nor . . . could not                      > nor . . . could

nor no other way                      > nor any other way

nor they shall not                     > nor shall they  (2Isaiah 13:17)

none of these I cannot             > none of these can I

nor never will be                      > nor ever will be

never have no power               > never have power

 

The only one I would say fits well with the use of double negatives in Hebrew is "nor no other way," but I imagine this is a single element in a list of two or more negations, meaning it is probably a result of that tendency to which I pointed earlier. The others occur with simple negations of verbs, but the double negatives most often occur with an inseparable prefix attached to the particle אין, "there is not." 

[Robert F. Smith]

The only one I would say fits well with the use of double negatives in Hebrew is "nor no other way," but I imagine this is a single element in a list of two or more negations, meaning it is probably a result of that tendency to which I pointed earlier. The others occur with simple negations of verbs, but the double negatives most often occur with an inseparable prefix attached to the particle אין, "there is not." 

Thank you so much, Bro!!

[canard78]

Thanks, Daniel,

Do you think that any of the following double-negatives in the Book of Mormon could reflect a Hebrew Vorlage?  I show how they were later changed:

 

not find no fault                         > not find fault

no tongue cannot speak           > no tongue can speak

nor . . . could not                      > nor . . . could

nor no other way                      > nor any other way

nor they shall not                     > nor shall they  (2Isaiah 13:17)

none of these I cannot             > none of these can I

nor never will be                      > nor ever will be

never have no power               > never have power

 

Would it be worth pointing out that in some of Joseph's personal writing he used double negatives?

 

E.g. (emphasis added):

 

But as the “Articles and Covenants” of this  church are plain upon this particular point,  I do not deem it important to proceed further. I only add, that I do not, nor never have, pretended to be any other than a man  “subject to passion,” and liable, without the  assisting grace of the Savior, to deviate from  that perfect path in which all men are commanded to walk!

 

Letter from Joseph Smith to Oliver Cowdery, December 1834

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/letter-to-oliver-cowdery-december-1834?p=1

 

 ...in their way to eternal life & there shall be no  pride nor envying nor strifes nor malice nor Idolitry nor  whitchcraft nor whoredoms nor fornications nor lying nor  deceits nor no iniquity & if any one is guilty of any or the  least of these & doth not repent & shew fruits meet for  repentance they shall not be numbered among my People

Attributed to Joseph Smith (possibly Oliver Cowdery), Articles of the Church of Christ, June 1829

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/revelation-book-1?dm=image-and-text&zm=zoom-inner&tm=expanded&p=10&s=undefined&sm=none

 

The original published Articles and Covenants has this:

...and see that there is no iniquity in the church, nor no hardness with each other, nor no lying nor backbiting, nor no evil speaking...

 

Articles and Covenants, circa April 1830

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/articles-and-covenants-circa-april-1830-dc-20

 

Here is the corrected version we have in D&C 20:

D&C 20:54 And see that there is no iniquity in the church, neither hardness with each other, neither lying, backbiting, nor evil speaking;

 

Joseph's use of double negatives is possibly influenced by the way his mother wrote/spoke:

 

No, nor never will; for he is as faithful as the sun—  the Lord will not forsake him, and angels will bear

 

Lucy Mack Smith, History, 1845, p. 336

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/lucy-mack-smith-history-1845?p=336

Edited October 31, 2013 by canard78

[canard78]

Thanks, Daniel,

Do you think that any of the following double-negatives in the Book of Mormon could reflect a Hebrew Vorlage?  I show how they were later changed:

 

not find no fault                         > not find fault

no tongue cannot speak           > no tongue can speak

nor . . . could not                      > nor . . . could

nor no other way                      > nor any other way

nor they shall not                     > nor shall they  (2Isaiah 13:17)

none of these I cannot             > none of these can I

nor never will be                      > nor ever will be

never have no power               > never have power

 

In addition to my post above (#88) showing that double negatives appear in handwritten and published church documents (some later corrected) we also need to consider the spoken language. If they appeared in writing and in publications then they are likely to have appeared in speech unchecked (perhaps even more so). If Lucy and Joseph had the tendency to use them in writing and perhaps in speaking then it may be of little significance that they appear in the Book of Mormon's early manuscripts, given they were a spoken scripture.

[Tacenda]

What did Moroni use to engrave on the gold/tin plates?  Why isn't the BoM more condensed in order to fit all those unnecessary words.  Or was it condensed so much so that JS had to look at the stones for more information?  This isn't a mocking question, it's one I'd ask even as a TBM, if I'd even come close to thinking about it.  Which I never did.  Have the apologist said anything about the tools used?  I'd love to see actual plates similar, meaning volume, found in the world to compare the two.  Any out there?  I've seen a tablet but not plates that number as many as the BoM.      

[Robert F. Smith]

What did Moroni use to engrave on the gold/tin plates?  Why isn't the BoM more condensed in order to fit all those unnecessary words.  Or was it condensed so much so that JS had to look at the stones for more information?  This isn't a mocking question, it's one I'd ask even as a TBM, if I'd even come close to thinking about it.  Which I never did.  Have the apologist said anything about the tools used?  I'd love to see actual plates similar, meaning volume, found in the world to compare the two.  Any out there?  I've seen a tablet but not plates that number as many as the BoM.      

Writing on metal plates was probably well-known to Israelites, as in Isaiah 8:1-4 (ǁ 2 Nephi 18:1-4), in which non-Mormon Alan Millard interprets Hebrew gillayon gadol as “large writing tablet.”

 

In light of the Ketef Hinnom amulets, the “large writing tablet,” gillayon gadol, may denote a sheet of metal, assuming the gilyonim of 3:23 are “mirrors,” on which letters would need to be written by incision with a graving tool (heret).^[1]

Isaiah 30:8 Hebrew lûaḥ “plate, tablet” (a permanent record), as in lûaḥ (sēper); ḥqq “engrave” = bʻr  “incise” in Habakkuk 2:2 – with a ḥereṭ “stylus.”^[2]   Such a stylus or engraving tool could be metal itself, or a very hard stone such as flint or obsidian.  A gold-copper alloy such as tumbaga would have a soft surface and hard interior, thus making engraving relatively easy.

Hugh Nibley and other scholars have discussed the various inscribed copper, bronze, silver, and gold plates used in ancient times in Egypt, Byblos, Palestine, etc.,^[3] including Orphic gold plates buried with the dead, a Phoenician Text from the Etruscan Sanctuary at Pyrgi (Pyrgi Tablets), Metal Documents in Stone Boxes, an Etruscan Gold Book from 600 B.C. (a six-page 24-carat gold book bound with rings, found in a tomb in Bulgaria ca. 1943), and an eight-page cuneiform golden codex found in 2005 in Teheran, Iran (from the Achaemenid period and bound with four rings).  Aside from those, there are thin gold and silver foil amulets with ancient Egyptian decans depicted thereon, found in Sardinia and Carthage (Oct 2, 2013, EEF email notice from Enrico Dirminti, Scuola di Specializzazione, University of Cagliari) -- J. Quack has them in his dissertation, which he is preparing for publication.

 

^[1] Alan Millard, “`Take a large writing tablet and write on it’: Isaiah – A writing prophet?” In Katherine J. Dell, Graham Davies,  and Yee Von Koh, eds., Genesis, Isaiah and Psalms: A Festschrift to Honor Professor John Emerton for his Eightieth Birthday (Leiden/ Boston: Brill, 2010), 115-116.  My thanks to Matt Roper, who called this source to my attention.

 

^[2] F. I. Andersen, Habakkuk, Anchor Bible 25 (Doubleday, 2001), 203-204.

 

^[3] Nibley, Lehi in the Desert, 2^nd ed., CWHN V:105-107, citing (among others) W. F. Albright, AA Hebrew Letter of the Twelfth Century,@ BASOR, 73 (Feb 1939), 9-13; E. Budge, Book of the Dead (London: British Museum/Longmans & Co., 1895), xix, n. 3; cf. C. Wilfred Griggs, “The Book of Mormon as an Ancient Book,” BYU Studies, 22/3 (1982): 259–278 (Orphic gold plates buried with the dead);  Philip C. Schmitz, AThe Phoenician Text from the Etruscan Sanctuary at Pyrgi,” Journal of the American Oriental Society, 115/4 (Oct - Dec 1995), 559-575 (Pyrgi Tablets); H. Curtis Wright, AAncient Burials of Metal Documents in Stone Boxes,@ in J. Lundquist & S. Ricks, eds., By Study and Also By Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley, 2 vols. (FARMS/Deseret, 1990), II:273-334; H. Curtis Wright, Modern Presentism and Ancient Metallic Epigraphy (SLC: Wings of Fire, 2006); John A. Tvedtnes, “Etruscan Gold Book from 600 B.C. Discovered,” Insights, 23/5 (2003), 1,6 (6-page 24-carat gold book bound with rings, found in a tomb in Bulgaria ca. 1943); William J. Hamblin, ASacred Writing on Metal Plates in the Ancient Mediterranean,” FARMS Review,19/1 (2007), 37-54; an 8-page cuneiform golden codex found in 2005 in Teheran, Iran (from the Achaemenid period and attached with four rings), can be seen online at http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2005/October2005/11-10.htm .

[canard78]

 

Your examples here are not very convincing, canard, but I have some which are:

Some years ago, the late Mary Lee Treat took into account the difficulty of making scribal erasures during engraving on metal plates,^[1] showing how scribes instead overcame their errors or infelicitous descriptions by inserting the word “or,” or the phrase “or rather” (and similar phrases) in order to correct of clarify an already engraven, unchangeable text, as at Mosiah 7:8,

 

And they stood before the king, and were permitted, or rather commanded, that they should answer the questions . . .

 

Another powerful indicator of authentic scribal activity in engraving metal plates is Alma 13:16, which clearly should have been inserted immediately following 13:12, but was instead dropped during ancient dictation due to a Nephite scribal failure to maintain the proper verse sequence due to verses 12 and 16 having the same final line (homoeoteleuton), i.e., the Nephite scribe (Mormon?) was unable to maintain sequence while moving his eyes back and forth from one text to the other, although he finally noticed his error and picked up the lost verse three verses later.  Herewith the correct sequence:

 

Alma 13:12-16

12 Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.

16 Now these ordinances were given after this manner, that thereby the people might look forward on the Son of God, it being a type of his order, or it being his order, and this that they might look forward to him for a remission of their sins, that they might enter into the rest of the Lord.

--------------------------- 

13 And now, my brethren, I would that ye should humble yourselves before God, and bring forth fruit meet for repentance, that ye may also enter into that rest.

14 Yea, humble yourselves even as the people in the days of Melchizedek, who was also a high priest after this same order which I have spoken, who also took upon him the high priesthood forever.

15 And it was this same Melchizedek to whom Abraham paid tithes; yea, even our father Abraham paid tithes of one-tenth part of all he possessed.

 

This was not a mistake of Oliver Cowdery as scribe for Joseph, nor of Joseph Smith as he dictated the continuous text in 1829.  For the Original Manuscript (O MS) itself contains the error, without any correction being attempted then (Oliver and the other scribes made regular corrections and insertions immediately, where they noticed the need) B nor in any subsequent manuscript or edition.  No one noticed the problem until it was pointed out recently by Grant Hardy.^[2]  This means that the error must go back to a much earlier scribe or editor, such as Mormon himself.

[1] Treat, “No Erasers,” Zarahemla Record, 13-14/5 (1981), reprinted in Recent Book of Mormon Developments (Independence: Zarahemla Research Foundation, 1984), I:54; D. Heater, “’No Erasers’ Update 2011,” Quetzal Codex, #2 (Spring 2011):2-5, online at http://www.quetzalarchaeology.org/ old-site/QC-Issue2.pdf ; Angela M. Crowell, “Hebraic Insights: ‘Or, or rather’ – A Newly Recognized Hebraism,” Qumran Quest, 5/2 (2000):1-3.

[2] G. R. Hardy, AThe Book of Mormon as a Literary (Written) Artifact,@ JBMS, 12/2 (2003):107-109,118.

 

Thanks for the detailed reply. I hadn't heard of the Alma 13 sequencing problem. Why can't v.16 incorporate 13-15? Remember that when Joseph first wrote the Articles of Faith, the ordinances of the gospel included things like Faith and Repentance (later changed):

 

We believe that these ordinances are 1st, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; 2d, Repentance; 3d, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; 4th, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

 

As such, 16 still fits if the whole chapter up to that point is leading up to "these ordinances were given after this manner, that thereby the people might look forward on the Son of God":

 

12. Sanctified by the Holy Ghost

13. Humble yourselves & repent

14. Humble yourselves like Melchizedek, a high priest after this order

(15, reminds us who Melchizedek is, mentions tithing)

16. These ordinances were given... that thereby the people might look forward on the Son of God, it being a type of his order, or it being his order, and this that they might look forward to him for a remission of their sins, that they might enter into the rest of the Lord. 

 

Why wouldn't humility and repentance be part the order of the Son of God that leads to them getting a remission of sins and entering into the rest of the Lord.

 

Even in verse 16 there's a correction (...it being a type of his order, or it being his order, and...).

 

Like I said, these could just as be caused by someone who can't retract what he just said. They are as much evidence for the book being originally written with no erasers as they are evidence for someone who can't say "hang on, I didn't say what I meant, erase that."

 

As with the modern double negatives I listed above in reply to your suggestion they were Egyptianisms, sometimes the same piece of "evidence" can be viewed from either perspective.

[Tacenda]

Writing on metal plates was probably well-known to Israelites, as in Isaiah 8:1-4 (ǁ 2 Nephi 18:1-4), in which non-Mormon Alan Millard interprets Hebrew gillayon gadol as “large writing tablet.”

In light of the Ketef Hinnom amulets, the “large writing tablet,” gillayon gadol, may denote a sheet of metal, assuming the gilyonim of 3:23 are “mirrors,” on which letters would need to be written by incision with a graving tool (heret).^[1]

Isaiah 30:8 Hebrew lûaḥ “plate, tablet” (a permanent record), as in lûaḥ (sēper); ḥqq “engrave” = bʻr “incise” in Habakkuk 2:2 – with a ḥereṭ “stylus.”^[2] Such a stylus or engraving tool could be metal itself, or a very hard stone such as flint or obsidian. A gold-copper alloy such as tumbaga would have a soft surface and hard interior, thus making engraving relatively easy.

Hugh Nibley and other scholars have discussed the various inscribed copper, bronze, silver, and gold plates used in ancient times in Egypt, Byblos, Palestine, etc.,^[3] including Orphic gold plates buried with the dead, a Phoenician Text from the Etruscan Sanctuary at Pyrgi (Pyrgi Tablets), Metal Documents in Stone Boxes, an Etruscan Gold Book from 600 B.C. (a six-page 24-carat gold book bound with rings, found in a tomb in Bulgaria ca. 1943), and an eight-page cuneiform golden codex found in 2005 in Teheran, Iran (from the Achaemenid period and bound with four rings). Aside from those, there are thin gold and silver foil amulets with ancient Egyptian decans depicted thereon, found in Sardinia and Carthage (Oct 2, 2013, EEF email notice from Enrico Dirminti, Scuola di Specializzazione, University of Cagliari) -- J. Quack has them in his dissertation, which he is preparing for publication.

^[1] Alan Millard, “`Take a large writing tablet and write on it’: Isaiah – A writing prophet?” In Katherine J. Dell, Graham Davies, and Yee Von Koh, eds., Genesis, Isaiah and Psalms: A Festschrift to Honor Professor John Emerton for his Eightieth Birthday (Leiden/ Boston: Brill, 2010), 115-116. My thanks to Matt Roper, who called this source to my attention.

^[2] F. I. Andersen, Habakkuk, Anchor Bible 25 (Doubleday, 2001), 203-204.

^[3] Nibley, Lehi in the Desert, 2^nd ed., CWHN V:105-107, citing (among others) W. F. Albright, AA Hebrew Letter of the Twelfth Century,@ BASOR, 73 (Feb 1939), 9-13; E. Budge, Book of the Dead (London: British Museum/Longmans & Co., 1895), xix, n. 3; cf. C. Wilfred Griggs, “The Book of Mormon as an Ancient Book,” BYU Studies, 22/3 (1982): 259–278 (Orphic gold plates buried with the dead); Philip C. Schmitz, AThe Phoenician Text from the Etruscan Sanctuary at Pyrgi,” Journal of the American Oriental Society, 115/4 (Oct - Dec 1995), 559-575 (Pyrgi Tablets); H. Curtis Wright, AAncient Burials of Metal Documents in Stone Boxes,@ in J. Lundquist & S. Ricks, eds., By Study and Also By Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley, 2 vols. (FARMS/Deseret, 1990), II:273-334; H. Curtis Wright, Modern Presentism and Ancient Metallic Epigraphy (SLC: Wings of Fire, 2006); John A. Tvedtnes, “Etruscan Gold Book from 600 B.C. Discovered,” Insights, 23/5 (2003), 1,6 (6-page 24-carat gold book bound with rings, found in a tomb in Bulgaria ca. 1943); William J. Hamblin, ASacred Writing on Metal Plates in the Ancient Mediterranean,” FARMS Review,19/1 (2007), 37-54; an 8-page cuneiform golden codex found in 2005 in Teheran, Iran (from the Achaemenid period and attached with four rings), can be seen online at http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2005/October2005/11-10.htm .

Thanks for responding Robert. I'll look over these references.

[prismsplay]

 

Writing on metal plates was probably well-known to Israelites, as in Isaiah 8:1-4 (ǁ 2 Nephi 18:1-4), in which non-Mormon Alan Millard interprets Hebrew gillayon gadol as “large writing tablet.”

 

In light of the Ketef Hinnom amulets, the “large writing tablet,” gillayon gadol, may denote a sheet of metal, assuming the gilyonim of 3:23 are “mirrors,” on which letters would need to be written by incision with a graving tool (heret).^[1]

Isaiah 30:8 Hebrew lûaḥ “plate, tablet” (a permanent record), as in lûaḥ (sēper); ḥqq “engrave” = bʻr  “incise” in Habakkuk 2:2 – with a ḥereṭ “stylus.”^[2]   Such a stylus or engraving tool could be metal itself, or a very hard stone such as flint or obsidian.  A gold-copper alloy such as tumbaga would have a soft surface and hard interior, thus making engraving relatively easy.

Hugh Nibley and other scholars have discussed the various inscribed copper, bronze, silver, and gold plates used in ancient times in Egypt, Byblos, Palestine, etc.,^[3] including Orphic gold plates buried with the dead, a Phoenician Text from the Etruscan Sanctuary at Pyrgi (Pyrgi Tablets), Metal Documents in Stone Boxes, an Etruscan Gold Book from 600 B.C. (a six-page 24-carat gold book bound with rings, found in a tomb in Bulgaria ca. 1943), and an eight-page cuneiform golden codex found in 2005 in Teheran, Iran (from the Achaemenid period and bound with four rings).  Aside from those, there are thin gold and silver foil amulets with ancient Egyptian decans depicted thereon, found in Sardinia and Carthage (Oct 2, 2013, EEF email notice from Enrico Dirminti, Scuola di Specializzazione, University of Cagliari) -- J. Quack has them in his dissertation, which he is preparing for publication.

 

^[1] Alan Millard, “`Take a large writing tablet and write on it’: Isaiah – A writing prophet?” In Katherine J. Dell, Graham Davies,  and Yee Von Koh, eds., Genesis, Isaiah and Psalms: A Festschrift to Honor Professor John Emerton for his Eightieth Birthday (Leiden/ Boston: Brill, 2010), 115-116.  My thanks to Matt Roper, who called this source to my attention.

 

^[2] F. I. Andersen, Habakkuk, Anchor Bible 25 (Doubleday, 2001), 203-204.

 

^[3] Nibley, Lehi in the Desert, 2^nd ed., CWHN V:105-107, citing (among others) W. F. Albright, AA Hebrew Letter of the Twelfth Century,@ BASOR, 73 (Feb 1939), 9-13; E. Budge, Book of the Dead (London: British Museum/Longmans & Co., 1895), xix, n. 3; cf. C. Wilfred Griggs, “The Book of Mormon as an Ancient Book,” BYU Studies, 22/3 (1982): 259–278 (Orphic gold plates buried with the dead);  Philip C. Schmitz, AThe Phoenician Text from the Etruscan Sanctuary at Pyrgi,” Journal of the American Oriental Society, 115/4 (Oct - Dec 1995), 559-575 (Pyrgi Tablets); H. Curtis Wright, AAncient Burials of Metal Documents in Stone Boxes,@ in J. Lundquist & S. Ricks, eds., By Study and Also By Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley, 2 vols. (FARMS/Deseret, 1990), II:273-334; H. Curtis Wright, Modern Presentism and Ancient Metallic Epigraphy (SLC: Wings of Fire, 2006); John A. Tvedtnes, “Etruscan Gold Book from 600 B.C. Discovered,” Insights, 23/5 (2003), 1,6 (6-page 24-carat gold book bound with rings, found in a tomb in Bulgaria ca. 1943); William J. Hamblin, ASacred Writing on Metal Plates in the Ancient Mediterranean,” FARMS Review,19/1 (2007), 37-54; an 8-page cuneiform golden codex found in 2005 in Teheran, Iran (from the Achaemenid period and attached with four rings), can be seen online at http://www.cais-soas.com/News/2005/October2005/11-10.htm .

 

 

It depends on the composition of the plates being engraved. Engraving on brass plates would require a harder instrument than what would be needed to engrave on gold or copper or some alloy therof. Jeremiah 17:1 describes an extremely hard engraving instrument:

 

The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond; it is graven upon the tables of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars.

 

Jeremiah 15:16 may have been referring to the discovery, in the 18th year of King Josiah, of the original book of the law given through Moses:

 

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O Lord God of hosts.

 

2 Kings 22:8:

And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the Lord. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan [who could read the Egyptian language?], and he read it [because the high priest Hilkiah could not?].

 

The Companion Bible interprets "the book of the law": "i.e. the original copy of the Pentateuch, laid up by the side of the Ark (Deut. 31:24-26). Probably secreted during the reigns of Manasseh (21:16) and Amon (21:21)." And for the parallel account in 2 Chronicles 34:14 The Companion Bible comments: "Without doubt the book which Moses himself wrote, the original copy of the Pentateuch."

 

In Ferrar Fenton's The Holy Bible in Modern English is this commentary of 2 Kings 22:8: "The Hebrew text... I would read as 'The Book - Book of the Law,' that is, in the English idiom, 'The Original Book of the Law,' the autograph copy engraved by Moses..." Remember, Moses was brought up as an Egyptian who wrote in Egyptian, and he needed Aaron to speak to the people in Hebrew. Fenton's translation of the parallel reading in 2 Chronicles 34:14 is: "Once when they were drawing money from the Treasury of the House of the EVER-LIVING, Hilkihu the Priest found the Book of the EVER-LIVING's Laws, in the hand-writing of Moses." Fenton comments: "What is said by the Sacred Historian is, that the ACTUAL ORIGINAL COPY IN THE HANDWRITING OF MOSES was now discovered amongst the other Public Records of the Nation..."

 

Since the original writings of the Egyptian-writing Moses were found in readable condition after so many centuries, and would have had to have been compact enough to fit in the side of the Ark, they may have been engraved on brass plates, and brass is hard enough to call for the type of engraving instrument described in Jeremiah 17:1: "a pen of iron and with a point of a diamond."

 

All of this reminds me of statements in the Book of Mormon:

 

1 Nephi 1:2:

Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

 

Mosiah 1:4:

... for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians, therefore he could read these engravings [on the brass plates] and teach them to his children...

[Robert F. Smith]

...............................................................   

Like I said, these could just as be caused by someone who can't retract what he just said. They are as much evidence for the book being originally written with no erasers as they are evidence for someone who can't say "hang on, I didn't say what I meant, erase that."

 

As with the modern double negatives I listed above in reply to your suggestion they were Egyptianisms, sometimes the same piece of "evidence" can be viewed from either perspective.

I am convinced by Hardy's arguments, and don't buy your version, just as I am convinced that Alma 11:18-19 was reversed via scribal error (the problem remains in the current edition).

 

Similarly, I don't find your examples applicable to the double negatives I listed.  As McClellan confirmed, they just don't lend themselves to Hebrew.  However, I have no problem with "bad" English grammar being normative in Joseph's neck of the woods.  The Egyptian and English possibilities thus moot the choice, and relegate that category to the list of indistinguishables.  There are plenty of other Egyptianisms which cannot be explained by English or Hebrew grammar, so there is no need to rely on moot points.

[Robert F. Smith]

It depends on the composition of the plates being engraved. Engraving on brass plates would require a harder instrument than what would be needed to engrave on gold or copper or some alloy therof. Jeremiah 17:1 describes an extremely hard engraving instrument:

 

The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and with the point of a diamond; it is graven upon the tables of their heart, and upon the horns of your altars.

 

Jeremiah 15:16 may have been referring to the discovery, in the 18th year of King Josiah, of the original book of the law given through Moses:

 

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O Lord God of hosts.

 

2 Kings 22:8:

And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the Lord. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan [who could read the Egyptian language?], and he read it [because the high priest Hilkiah could not?].

 

The Companion Bible interprets "the book of the law": "i.e. the original copy of the Pentateuch, laid up by the side of the Ark (Deut. 31:24-26). Probably secreted during the reigns of Manasseh (21:16) and Amon (21:21)." And for the parallel account in 2 Chronicles 34:14 The Companion Bible comments: "Without doubt the book which Moses himself wrote, the original copy of the Pentateuch."

 

In Ferrar Fenton's The Holy Bible in Modern English is this commentary of 2 Kings 22:8: "The Hebrew text... I would read as 'The Book - Book of the Law,' that is, in the English idiom, 'The Original Book of the Law,' the autograph copy engraved by Moses..." Remember, Moses was brought up as an Egyptian who wrote in Egyptian, and he needed Aaron to speak to the people in Hebrew. Fenton's translation of the parallel reading in 2 Chronicles 34:14 is: "Once when they were drawing money from the Treasury of the House of the EVER-LIVING, Hilkihu the Priest found the Book of the EVER-LIVING's Laws, in the hand-writing of Moses." Fenton comments: "What is said by the Sacred Historian is, that the ACTUAL ORIGINAL COPY IN THE HANDWRITING OF MOSES was now discovered amongst the other Public Records of the Nation..."

 

Since the original writings of the Egyptian-writing Moses were found in readable condition after so many centuries, and would have had to have been compact enough to fit in the side of the Ark, they may have been engraved on brass plates, and brass is hard enough to call for the type of engraving instrument described in Jeremiah 17:1: "a pen of iron and with a point of a diamond."

 

All of this reminds me of statements in the Book of Mormon:

 

1 Nephi 1:2:

Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

 

Mosiah 1:4:

... for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians, therefore he could read these engravings [on the brass plates] and teach them to his children...

Yes, of course bronze plates would have required a harder stylus ("brass" in KJV English means "bronze," as Nibley and the OED tell us), and steel was available to Nephi -- or he could have made his own steel with bellows and a ceramic or brick oven to soften the ore enough to make a bloom of iron, which could then be hammered and quenched repeatedly (with charcoal to add the carbon necessary to steel) into whatever tools were needed.

 

As an aside, the Olmec made highly polished magnetite mirrors as well as magnetite pointers (probably as part of a compass) during the Jaredite period.

[Tacenda]

Yes, of course bronze plates would have required a harder stylus ("brass" in KJV English means "bronze," as Nibley and the OED tell us), and steel was available to Nephi -- or he could have made his own steel with bellows and a ceramic or brick oven to soften the ore enough to make a bloom of iron, which could then be hammered and quenched repeatedly (with charcoal to add the carbon necessary to steel) into whatever tools were needed.

As an aside, the Olmec made highly polished magnetite mirrors as well as magnetite pointers (probably as part of a compass) during the Jaredite period.

I think parchment would have been much easier, which makes me think about the ad I saw the other day, the Dead Sea Scrolls are coming to Salt Lake soon.

[canard78]

I am convinced by Hardy's arguments, and don't buy your version, just as I am convinced that Alma 11:18-19 was reversed via scribal error (the problem remains in the current edition).

 

Similarly, I don't find your examples applicable to the double negatives I listed.  As McClellan confirmed, they just don't lend themselves to Hebrew.  However, I have no problem with "bad" English grammar being normative in Joseph's neck of the woods.  The Egyptian and English possibilities thus moot the choice, and relegate that category to the list of indistinguishables.  There are plenty of other Egyptianisms which cannot be explained by English or Hebrew grammar, so there is no need to rely on moot points.

 

Like I said, the scribal errors and reversed scripture example are very interesting and I agree that Hardy's argument is more persuasive than the alternative I suggested (I'm more persuaded by Hardy too!).

 

Regarding the double negatives. You shared a list of double negatives from the original manuscript that were later corrected. I found 4 different examples of your double negative list that appear in 1820s/30s documents. One is a double negative in something that later becomes section 20. I'm simply pointing out that if double negatives are present in Joseph's speach, conversation and also in documents written that are not based on ancient sources, how can double negatives in the Book of Mormon be confidently proposed as evidence of an ancient Egyptian source?

 

I accept that in one direction it works: If the BoM is based on a direct translation of an Egyptian source we might expect some double negatives in the English.

But: If there are double negatives in the English we can't assume that the source was Egyptian if we also find double negatives in Joseph's other modern writing and speech.

[canadaduane]

 

Writing on metal plates was probably well-known to Israelites, as in Isaiah 8:1-4 (ǁ 2 Nephi 18:1-4), in which non-Mormon Alan Millard interprets Hebrew gillayon gadol as “large writing tablet.”

 

 

Writing on brass is also mentioned in The Late War:

"But the imaginary evils which the children of men commit are oftentimes graven in brass, whilst their actual good deeds are written in sand." (LW 36:26)

[volgadon]

 

Writing on brass is also mentioned in The Late War:

"But the imaginary evils which the children of men commit are oftentimes graven in brass, whilst their actual good deeds are written in sand." (LW 36:26)

 

Then why no sandy plates?