Human Evolution

[Brian 2.0]

The fact that Adam lived almost a thousand years, and current man lives to approximately 100, says a lot about Evolution.

I think you might find plenty that question if that is a "fact"

[Tiki]

I think you might find plenty that question if that is a "fact"

Yeah, D&C 107 is hard to believe.

[mfbukowski]

Seeing science as defining itself to not find plans is also in the eye of the beholder. 

Well that's a nice sentiment, but unfortunately evolutionary scientists are the beholders and they disagree with you.

 

In order for science to find "plans" it would have to scrap all its basic naturalistic assumptions and start the scientific investigation for evidence of God, getting government grants etc to do so.  Research money doesn't fall from the sky.  Of course if science was investigating the existence of God, it might, but good luck with that.

 

You think you have problems with church and state now- just follow that proposition out to its conclusion and you will find some problems with it.

 

And the answer to the cure for cancer could be "God wants you to have cancer- it's part of his plan."   Scientists could now agree that the universe was created in 6 days as part of God's plan, and that indeed all this stuff about carbon dating is bunk because after all, God can speed up or slow down chemical reactions as he likes, if it is part of his plan.

 

Maybe they will discover that God's plan does not only include macro evolution but also worldwide domination by the True Religion, since religion can now be scientifically proven.

 

Great idea!

[thesometimesaint]

So, when two animals communicate with each other (to convey an abstract idea such as "danger"), they are either human, or we just think they are communicating but really they aren't, because only humans communicate?

 

Humans aren't the only animals to communicate. Pretty much every living thing communicates in one form or another. That being said humans have the most complicated and complex methods of communication of abstract ideas. Plus we're the only animal that uses writing as a communication skill.

Edited September 28, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[thesometimesaint]

It's more similar to saying that the snail's offspring eventually becomes a rabbit as it traverses along it's way. 

 

Extrapolating that a snail could travel long distances because it has been observed to travel small ones is a valid extrapolation. 

 

Extrapolating that a snail (or more specifically it's offspring) would become something other than a snail isn't a valid extrapolation. Why? Because it not only hasn't ever been observed (not even once), it violates what we do observe (that changes that occur are always limited). 

 

Such a statement is either deceptive or ignorant. Evolution doesn't claim that snails ever evolve into rabbits.

 

See different species of snails:  http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/number-of-snail-species

[thesometimesaint]

The fact that Adam lived almost a thousand years, and current man lives to approximately 100, says a lot about Evolution.

 

It doesn't say a word about evolution. But it does say plenty about those that believe in hyper-evolution.

http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/30/creationism-evolution/?_r=0

[danielwoods]

Well that's a nice sentiment, but unfortunately evolutionary scientists are the beholders and they disagree with you.

 

In order for science to find "plans" it would have to scrap all its basic naturalistic assumptions and start the scientific investigation for evidence of God, getting government grants etc to do so.  Research money doesn't fall from the sky.  Of course if science was investigating the existence of God, it might, but good luck with that.

 

You think you have problems with church and state now- just follow that proposition out to its conclusion and you will find some problems with it.

 

And the answer to the cure for cancer could be "God wants you to have cancer- it's part of his plan."   Scientists could now agree that the universe was created in 6 days as part of God's plan, and that indeed all this stuff about carbon dating is bunk because after all, God can speed up or slow down chemical reactions as he likes, if it is part of his plan.

 

Maybe they will discover that God's plan does not only include macro evolution but also worldwide domination by the True Religion, since religion can now be scientifically proven.

 

Great idea!

 

There's nothing about finding plans or understanding that communication is happening that requires science to scrap their basic naturalistic assumptions. 

 

The search for life (SETI project) is a good example. Where scientists posit that if they find a language (or something that fits the definition of communication) then they have found evidence for intelligent life, of some sort. None of this violates their basic naturalistic assumptions.

 

 

Humans aren't the only animals to communicate. Pretty much every living thing communicates in one form or another. That being said humans have the most complicated and complex methods of communication of abstract ideas. Plus we're the only animal that uses writing as a communication skill.

 

I agree. 

 

Such a statement is either deceptive or ignorant. Evolution doesn't claim that snails ever evolve into rabbits.

 

See different species of snails:  http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/number-of-snail-species

 

It was intended to be an analogy, I wasn't attempting to describe the evolution of snails because as you may know I don't believe they evolved into anything other than snails or snail like creatures. 

[thesometimesaint]

Evolution merely says that offspring are close to, but not identical to their parents. That given enough generations some of the offspring generation will not be able to reproduce witth the parent generation.

[Tiki]

The Earth and all things on it, was first created Spiritually:

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

Yet, for the Physical creation, Adam was the first flesh upon the Physical Earth:

7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

This is contrary to the Theory of Evolution which claims higher forms of life evolved from lower orders.

[thesometimesaint]

Even the Scriptures don't claim Adam was the first flesh on the earth.

[Tiki]

Even the Scriptures don't claim Adam was the first flesh on the earth.

This was clarified by The First Presidency:

Adam, our first progenitor, “the first man,” was, like Christ, a preexistent spirit, and like Christ he took upon him an appropriate body, the body of a man, and so became a “living soul.”

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the-origin-of-man?lang=eng

... And Moses 1:34

34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many

[katherine the great]

The Earth and all things on it, was first created Spiritually:

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

Yet, for the Physical creation, Adam was the first flesh upon the Physical Earth:

7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

This is contrary to the Theory of Evolution which claims higher forms of life evolved from lower orders.

Yet elsewhere in the scriptures it says that the animals were created before man.  They are all "flesh."  There are many different ways to interpret scripture--especially if it is metaphor.

[cdowis]

I think if a snail could live forever it could eventually find it's way from LA to NYC.  

 

snip

 

 

ETA:  I actually think there is more evidences for macroevolution than this snail metaphor because it isn't simply extrapolating "microevoltuion" with more time, we also have the predicitons based upon the theory of evolution that have been validated with modern findings.

 

But it is not just time and distance, but there are otherwise impenetrable barriers that require a "leap" across that barrier.  The slow but steady dribbling of the snail is sufficient for short distances, not to find journey's end.

 

The motorcycle can make a journey, and carry small loads, but the ten ton load requires the tractor trailer.  Evolution has sufficient to put put around the neighborhood, but insufficient to carry tons of steel and concrete.

 

Do not be deceived by those (having many letters before and after their names) who have faith in such magic.

Edited September 28, 2013 by cdowis

[ERayR]

But it is not just time and distance, but there are otherwise impenetrable barriers that require a "leap" across that barrier.  The slow but steady dribbling of the snail is sufficient for short distances, not to find journey's end.

 

The motorcycle can make a journey, and carry small loads, but the ten ton load requires the tractor trailer.  Evolution has sufficient to put put around the neighborhood, but insufficient to carry tons of steel and concrete.

 

Do not be deceived by those (having many letters before and after their names) who have faith in such magic.

 

But magic is so much easier and we can make it up as we go.

[ERayR]

Even the Scriptures don't claim Adam was the first flesh on the earth.

 

And this is significant how?

[cdowis]

ERayR,

 

Didn't know you had it in you to ask such a sharp and insightful question.

[ERayR]

ERayR,

 

Didn't know you had it in you to ask such a sharp and insightful question.

 

I sometimes like to know the significance someone places on such observations.  It can avert some misunderstandings and wasted posts.

[mfbukowski]

There's nothing about finding plans or understanding that communication is happening that requires science to scrap their basic naturalistic assumptions. 

 

The search for life (SETI project) is a good example. Where scientists posit that if they find a language (or something that fits the definition of communication) then they have found evidence for intelligent life, of some sort. None of this violates their basic naturalistic assumptions.

I agree that that is a major inconsistency.  I don't have a clue how they justify that.  I think it does in fact violate their naturalistic assumptions, but I don't get to decide because I am not in the club.

[Freedom]

This was clarified by The First Presidency:

Adam, our first progenitor, “the first man,” was, like Christ, a preexistent spirit, and like Christ he took upon him an appropriate body, the body of a man, and so became a “living soul.”

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the-origin-of-man?lang=eng

... And Moses 1:34

34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many

 

So the 'First' Presidency provides clarity on the 'first' man. Interesting. What does 'first' mean?

[danielwoods]

I agree that that is a major inconsistency.  I don't have a clue how they justify that.  I think it does in fact violate their naturalistic assumptions, but I don't get to decide because I am not in the club.

 

Thanks. 

[Stone holm]

Yet elsewhere in the scriptures it says that the animals were created before man.  They are all "flesh."  There are many different ways to interpret scripture--especially if it is metaphor.

As I have read, it has been suggested that the days of Creation actually apply to the Spiritual Creation, and the physical Creation actually occurred in one day. Non-Mormon scholars have suggested that there were in effect two Genesis accounts which were mashed together to make one book which is why the accounts disagree. Although several Mormons have made the first argument it seems kind of strained and makes one wonder about the Endowment. Personally, I tend to go with BY on this one and just dismiss much of it as fable, except I still believe in the Garden and the existence of an Adam and Eve. I think we really understand very little about what physically happened in the Garden. I also tend to go with those who believe in a limited Garden rather than it encompassing the whole Earth that seems to me the best way to simply sidestep the whole fossil record thing. We don't know how long Adam and Eve walked around nude in the Garden, but there is no reason to believe that they transgressed immediately after being placed in it.

[thesometimesaint]

This was clarified by The First Presidency:

Adam, our first progenitor, “the first man,” was, like Christ, a preexistent spirit, and like Christ he took upon him an appropriate body, the body of a man, and so became a “living soul.”

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the-origin-of-man?lang=eng

... And Moses 1:34

34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many

 

I have no problem with that.

[thesometimesaint]

And this is significant how?

 

Because it has been claimed by some that it means that Adam was placed on an dead piece of rock.

[Stone holm]

Because it has been claimed by some that it means that Adam was placed on an dead piece of rock.

Well if America can place a man on a dead piece of rock, I guess The Lord could as well. Some have suggested that it might have been recycled rock

[thesometimesaint]

We essentially took our world with us to the moon.

 

Surely, God could have caused birds to fly with their bones made of solid gold, with their veins full of quicksilver, with their flesh heavier than lead, and with their wings exceedingly small. He did not, and that ought to show something. It is only in order to shield your ignorance that you put the Lord at every turn to the refuge of a miracle.

Galileo

 

Ps; http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/09/29/chimpanzees-clobber-humans-in-complex-memory-tests-study/

Edited September 29, 2013 by thesometimesaint