Desolation And West Sea

[Freedom]

In Alma 63:5 we read: And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.

 

In Mormon 3:5 we read And it came to pass that I did cause my people that they should gather themselves together at the land Desolation, to a city which was in the borders, by the narrow pass which led into the land southward.

 

and in Alma 50:34 And it came to pass that they did not head them until they had come to the borders of the land Desolation; and there they did head them, by the narrow pass which led by the sea into the land northward, yea, by the sea, on the west and on the east.

 

Assuming the southern Mexico placement of the Nephite civilization, Both Clarke and Sorenson place the narrow pass and the land desolation close to the sea east, but place the departure of Hagoth from the sea west as Alma 63 requires. There is no way, from my reckoning, that someone can board a ship by the east sea and travel up stream, over some mountains, and into the west sea. There certainly is a narrow pass on the south coast of Mexico, but nowhere near where Bountiful and Desolation is proposed. In fact, I do not see any justification there requiring a 'narrow pass'  by the east sea because the land is flat. The only place I can see a narrow pass being required is through mountains. Any thoughts? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Questing Beast]

Many thoughts. Those (e.g. Sorenson) who argue for the Isthmus of Tehuantepec as "the narrow neck of land", also include inside of it "the narrow pass", some geographical feature which funnels the movement of large groups into an easily defended place. They also make a point that "nowhere" in the text does it say that the "sea east" is the other border of this narrow neck or pass, because the "sea west" or "west sea" is in conjunction with "on/from the east" but no mention of "sea" with "east". However this a semantics argument, because as your quote clearly says, "sea" applies to both "on the west and on the east".

 

Imho, JS was seeing the Western Hemisphere in total when constructing the text for the BoM. It readily made facile sense. The only thing majorly standing in the way are the stated movement distances in days which argue for a much smaller model than north and south America with Panama's isthmus as the "narrow neck/pass". And today several posts have argued for the comparative distances traveled in similar or even shorter time spans by much more modern examples, spanning thousands instead of a couple or a few hundred miles. If we allow that such is plausible for whole nations retreating from their enemies, as Nibley argued for, then the whole hemisphere model becomes viable (again ) and Sorenson, et al. are "out of a job", or at least a hobby....

 

(edit, trying to spell Sorenson's name correctly, call it an OC thing if you like)

Edited September 3, 2013 by Questing Beast

[prismsplay]

In an article titled "The Four Quadrants" by Sean G. Duff, available in Recent Book of Mormon Developments volume 2 (1992), attention was called to Alma 53:8 (emphasis mine): "And now it came to pass that the armies of the Lamanites on the west sea south, while in the absence of Moroni, on account of some intrigue amongst the Nephites, which caused dissentions among them, had gained some ground over the Nephites, yes, insomuch that they had obtained possession of a number of their cities in that part of the land." 

 

Duff argued: "Because there was a west sea south, it can be concluded that there was a west sea north. Therefore, the Pacific Ocean is the west sea south and the Gulf of Mexico, lying in the northwest quadrant, would be the west sea north."

 

Here is Duff's summary of geography for the land of the Nephites and Lamanites:

1. North, south, east, and west are accurate and consistent in the Book of Mormon.

2. The river Sidon divided the east from the west.

3. The border between the Nephites and the Lamanites divided the north from the south.

4. The two dividing lines create four quadrants.

5. The east sea is the Caribbean Sea.

6. The west sea south is the Pacific Ocean.

7. The west sea north is the Gulf of Mexico.

 

Duff would insert one explanatory word into Alma 63:5: "And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceeding curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceeding large ship on the borders of the land Bountiful by the land Desolation and launched it forth into the west sea [north] by the narrow neck which led into the land northward." The very next verse tells us the direction the ship went: "they took their course northward". If they had sailed into the Pacific Ocean, their course would have been westward.

[Freedom]

While interesting points, it does not resolve the problem of where Hagoth built and sailed his boat.

[prismsplay]

For me, it does indicate where Hagoth built and sailed his ship. The only way a Pacific Ocean launching makes sense to me is if the land Bountiful was considered to extend all the way to the Pacific Ocean. In that case, the northward course of Hagoth's ship would have to refer to its destination and not the direction it took upon launching. To me, it makes sense that the northward course was through the Gulf of Mexico to somewhere along the coast of what is now Mexico or what is now the United States.

[cursor]

Alma 22:32

And now, it was only the adistance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small bneck of land between the land northward and the land southward.

_____

 

It's a day and a half's journey on the borderline from some area the Nephites referenced as "the east," to "the west sea."

 

Consider the attached PDF.

Edited September 3, 2013 by cursor

[Freedom]

Alma 22:32

And now, it was only the adistance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small bneck of land between the land northward and the land southward.

_____

 

It's a day and a half's journey on the borderline from some area the Nephites referenced as "the east," to "the west sea."

 

Consider the attached PDF.

Still, you have the ship being built near the narrow pass. It is not possible to sail from this region of Mexico to the west coast. I suppose if the land bountiful stretched up to the narrow pass and over to the coast by what is now Agua Excondida. If there is a distinction between the narrow neck on the north coast and the narrow past through the mountains towards the south coast, and if bountiful included the mountain region, then it could work. The distance at this point of the continent is about 250 km so walking this in 1.5 days would be quite the accomplishment. If the average walking speed is 5km, that would take them 50 hours assuming no obstructions and a strait path.

[cursor]

[ Please note that I fixed an error on the previously attached PDF (09/03/2013 @ 12:00 PM PST) ]

 

Alma 63:5

And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.

_____

 

• Since the only way to reach the land northward (by land) is through the "narrow neck of land", it is "the narrow neck which led into the land northward."
• Within that "narrow neck" is a "narrow pass[age]", which is on the east side of the narrow neck, which is a particularly strategic route to the land northward.

Here's a parallel example (Google Earth 45°52'15.72"N, 64°17'11.24"W):

• If one wants to travel from Nova Scotia to New Brunswick, they have to go through a "narrow neck of land" (just 25 miles wide).
• Within that "narrow neck" is a "narrow pass[ageway]", which is called the Nova Scotia Highway 104 — which is really the ONLY possible route.

bofm_map_01.pdf

Edited September 4, 2013 by cursor

[Calm]

I don't see an attachment.

[cursor]

Shoot. I guess I didn't attach the replacement PDF. I'll do that right now (to post #6).

[Freedom]

Cursur, I understand the logic but in the models put forth by Clarke and Sorensen, the narrow passage and the narrow neck are in two very different places. Consistently, they place the narrow passage on the north side, or by the east sea. The passage is through the mountains heading south. The region to the north where bountiful and desolation are placed is pretty flat so I do not see why there would be a need for a narrow neck. We are left with Hagoth leaving from the southern shore but, according to BoM geography, he built his ship north of the mountain range.

[cursor]

Busy now. Let me take a peek tomorrow at this issue. Bonsoir.

[USU78]

What does "east" mean in Nephite?

What does "west" mean in Nephite?

What does "north" mean in Nephite?

What does "south" mean in Nephite?

What does "sea" mean in Nephite?

 

The problem is a translation one as well as a geography one.  In German there are two words, pronounced the same, but which have different genders, See, which describe bodies of water.  Die See [f] is the ocean, like the "seven seas" of English.  Der See  [m] is any old lake.  Thank heavens German has grammatical clues in the declensions of adjectives and articles that tell us whether we're talking about the feminine ocean or the masculine lake.  Otherwise it would be a miserable mess understanding what the heck we're talking about.

 

Those who never learn or work in translation of other languages than English never have to deal with the problem.

 

And there are other, even worse, problems.  Examples include words that have 5-6 meanings depending upon context, and we have to choose which English word best corresponds to a speaker/author's meaning.  At times it's simply not possible, but you do your best anyway.

[cursor]

Cursur, I understand the logic but in the models put forth by Clarke and Sorensen, the narrow passage and the narrow neck are in two very different places. Consistently, they place the narrow passage on the north side, or by the east sea. The passage is through the mountains heading south. The region to the north where bountiful and desolation are placed is pretty flat so I do not see why there would be a need for a narrow neck. We are left with Hagoth leaving from the southern shore but, according to BoM geography, he built his ship north of the mountain range.

 

Could you please offer references to some of the Sorenson and Clark (John E.?) quotes that you find confusing/conflicting? 

Also, please provide more info for "the passage is through the mountains heading south."

Thanks.

Edited September 4, 2013 by cursor

[ERayR]

While interesting points, it does not resolve the problem of where Hagoth built and sailed his boat.

 

 

Which one?

[Freedom]

I will pull my references together, and will look more closely at the other two theories presented.

[Freedom]

On page 37 of An Ancient American Perspective, the map places Desolation and Bountiful on the north side of the isthmus/narrow neck of land, or close to the East Sea. On page 339, it places the narrow pass beside the Hill Shim which is on the northern shore or on the east sea. This location of the narrow pass is reaffirmed on page 241”Plausible scenes of the wars in the extended land of Zerahemla. He places Amonihah in the valley that leads to the west sea, the passage through this mountain zone that would lead to the west sea where Hagoth would have sailed his ship.

In Alma 63:5 we read: And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.

 

John Clark, in his paper “Archaeology, Relics, and Book of Mormon Belief”, places the mountain pass south of Hill Shim and he plunks land Bountiful right on top of the mountain range, which allows us to justify the expression in Alma, but it does not fit with the actual geography of the region. The map may have meant ‘narrow pass’ rather than ‘mountain pass’.

Desolation and Bountiful are about 200 km from the south coast/west sea. That is the distance of Jerusalem to Beirut. I can’t see the land of Jerusalem encompassing such a massive geography. Also, the mountain pass that would lead to the west see would be south east of the proposed Bountiful, and Desolation would be on the opposite side of bountiful. It is like saying The Great Salt Lake is on the boarders of the City of Pocatello Idaho, by the city of Idaho Falls.  

I suppose that the narrow neck could not refer to the entire region from coast to coast, but rather just the low lands of what was the Olmec culture core. This is how we can explain the expression ‘into the west sea, by the narrow neck’.

The description of Bountiful in relationship to Hagoths departure, however, does not seem to fit with the proposed geography. I just don’t see the land Bountiful encompassing such a huge geographical area.

[prismsplay]

Since the Book of Mormon describes actual people, places, and things, there must be archaeological evidence of the advanced civilizations and large populations described. According to the writings of Zenos quoted in the Book of Jacob, there were many graftings of branches of Israel. The description of what would become the Nephite-Lamanite branch in a good spot of ground, with its wild fruit eventually overcoming its tame fruit, coincides with Mesoamerican archaeology. Book of Mormon geography must conform to Mesoamerican realities. I think the day is soon coming when we will understand why Book of Mormon descriptions of geography are worded the way they are. Meanwhile, exact locations of Book of Mormon cities are being proposed based on some archaeological evidence suggesting the identifications. I have been following the reports of the Hill Cumorah Expedition Team, which believes it has located many sites. Although confirming evidence is always desired, I think that they have uncovered some noteworthy evidence, being led by a man who, in his youth, encountered one of the Three Nephites on a mountain in Mexico.

[Rob Osborn]

I often wonder if its just the alure of the Maya that we somehow keep coming at different angles to make the geography fit within their lands only.

[Questing Beast]

If I were to grab onto a geographical model, awaiting evidence to fill in the "blank spots", it would be the full hemispheric model. The only really sticky bits are a lack of enough artifacts of a warfare and occupational nature. The movement distances/times in the text no longer bother me....

[cursor]

On page 37 of An Ancient American Perspective ...

 

I presume you mean An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon.

I see your concern with respect to the placement of Desolation and Bountiful labels. I'll dig a bit.

 

John Clark, in his paper “Archaeology, Relics, and Book of Mormon Belief”, places the mountain pass south of Hill Shim and he plunks land Bountiful right on top of the mountain range ...

 

I can only find that particular article here. It's strictly text. I'm guessing by your post that there are graphics published in the print version of Journal of Book of Mormon Studies (Volume - 14, Issue - 2, Pages: 38–49, 71–74) that should help me understand Clark' position. If you'd attach a graphic image to your next post, it'd be appreciated. Thanks.

[cursor]

I see that the Maxwell Institute link that I posted above allows me to download a PDF of the actually publication, including graphics. Cool. Give me a bit to bounce back and forth between that document and your question above, Freedom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Liu6sEJPd4A

Edited September 5, 2013 by cursor

[Freedom]

I presume you mean An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon.

 Let us not quibble over who set who.

[cursor]

On page 37 of An Ancient American Perspective [actually, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon], the map places Desolation and Bountiful on the north side of the isthmus/narrow neck of land, or close to the East Sea.

 

John Clark, in his paper “Archaeology, Relics, and Book of Mormon Belief”, places the mountain pass south of Hill Shim and he plunks land Bountiful right on top of the mountain range ...

 

The singular map, on page 47 of the publication, that John Clark uses to illustrate Book of Mormon lands comes from the inside cover of my father's Mormon's Map. There is no conflict with John L. Sorenson's views. I will admit, however, that the maps included in An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon seem to unnecessarily restrict the scope of both the land Bountiful and the land Desolation. Their labels seem indicate that they are limited to the "east sea" side. That is unnecessary (and unfortunate).

 

Allow me to clarify:

• The land of Desolation was "north" of the narrow neck of land, and extended until who knows where. It extended from the "east sea" to the "west sea" (or from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean)

• The land of Bountiful was "south" of the narrow neck of land, extending "southward" to the land of Zarahemla.  It extended from the "east sea" to the "west sea" (or from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean).

• The borderline that divided the two ran through the narrow neck of land.

• Ship-builder Hagoth built and launched his ships on at the "west sea" (the Pacific Ocean), in Bountiful, close to Desolation ... and headed "northward" 

Clear?

[Freedom]

Perhaps I missed it, but from my reading, the land bountiful is on the east sea. It doesn't seem reasonable to have the land bountiful or the land desolation covering such a huge area. I will have to review my geography references.