EllenMaksoud Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 There are lots of prophesies in the Bible and attendant LDS documents. The one that seems a most vivid assault on my idealistic and romantic ideas about how life should be is the so called "curse of Hagar, Genesis 16:10-12, “He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.” (v 12) In looking at the news it is easy to feel that his descendants are somehow cursed to the bone.So, in putting the other prophesies that we know of together, can it be said that humanity has any control over their destiny at all? This is part of the age old Calvin/Armenian discussion, and for years I was indoctrinated with the dogma that Muslims would rule the world. Being quite ignorant of certain parts of Mormon prophesy, please tell me what you know of prophesies regarding the fate of our church? I have no doubt what so ever that eventually Jesus the Christ will return to do the will of Heavenly Father. Beyond that, my thinking is too full of Dispensational ideas and I long to know what it is that as a Mormon I am to believe on the subject.
Bikeemikey Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 There are lots of prophesies in the Bible and attendant LDS documents. The one that seems a most vivid assault on my idealistic and romantic ideas about how life should be is the so called "curse of Hagar, Genesis 16:10-12, “He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.” (v 12) In looking at the news it is easy to feel that his descendants are somehow cursed to the bone.So, in putting the other prophesies that we know of together, can it be said that humanity has any control over their destiny at all? This is part of the age old Calvin/Armenian discussion, and for years I was indoctrinated with the dogma that Muslims would rule the world. Being quite ignorant of certain parts of Mormon prophesy, please tell me what you know of prophesies regarding the fate of our church? I have no doubt what so ever that eventually Jesus the Christ will return to do the will of Heavenly Father. Beyond that, my thinking is too full of Dispensational ideas and I long to know what it is that as a Mormon I am to believe on the subject.Do you hang out with many of Hagar's descendants frequently?Is your observation that they fully embody the curse placed on the grand-pops 4000 years ago it self even valid?
mfbukowski Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 I am better acquainted with philosophy than the bible, unfortunately, but we take the "stone cut without hands" to be us- or more precisely Christ's Kingdom which we presume will include us in a prominent position.Daniel 224Therefore Daniel went in unto Arioch, whom the king had ordained to destroy the wise men of Babylon: he went and said thus unto him; Destroy not the wise men of Babylon: bring me in before the king, and I will shew unto the king the interpretation.25Then Arioch brought in Daniel before the king in haste, and said thus unto him, I have found a man of the captives of Judah, that will make known unto the king the interpretation. 26The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof? 27Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king; 28But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these; 29As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass. 30But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.31Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.36This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.39And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.40And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
mfbukowski Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 Do you hang out with many of Hagar's descendants frequently?Is your observation that they fully embody the curse placed on the grand-pops 4000 years ago it self even valid?Perhaps you do not know that Ellen is a convert to the church from Islam.
Bikeemikey Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 Perhaps you do not know that Ellen is a convert to the church from Islam.Nope I did not know that. Ellen was kind enough to PM me and share some experiences.I still feel that non-Muslim fringe movements are likely as violent as Muslim fringe groups.
Calm Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 Nope I did not know that. Ellen was kind enough to PM me and share some experiences.I still feel that non-Muslim fringe movements are likely as violent as Muslim fringe groups.The curse seems at least as much about perception---how others feel about the descendants---as it is about how they act towards others.
Bikeemikey Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 The curse seems at least as much about perception---how others feel about the descendants---as it is about how they act towards others.That seems entirely to true. But then from their perspective many Muslims see us as violent and blood thirsty.
volgadon Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 It is also important to point out that Ishmael is not the ancestor of the Arabs, not even according to the biblical text. Ishmael is the ancestor of some of the tribes, that is all. 1
Bikeemikey Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 It is also important to point out that Ishmael is not the ancestor of the Arabs, not even according to the biblical text. Ishmael is the ancestor of some of the tribes, that is all.Good point.
EllenMaksoud Posted July 6, 2013 Author Posted July 6, 2013 It is also important to point out that Ishmael is not the ancestor of the Arabs, not even according to the biblical text. Ishmael is the ancestor of some of the tribes, that is all.Well, Muslims think they are descendants of Islmael. I am not an expert in ancient history.
rpn Posted July 6, 2013 Posted July 6, 2013 You really should read Daniel Peterson's book "Abraham Divided" because it helps understand the original promises and history that affect the Jew/Palestine discussion (which in turn underlies much of the Islam/rest of the world confrontation). http://www.amazon.com/Abraham-Divided-Perspective-Middle-East/dp/1562362461/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1373143386&sr=8-1&keywords=abraham+divided
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