The Increasing Size Of The Tent Of Mormonism

[Questing Beast]

I'm not sure of anything other than Existence including "me" and that all of Existence is Caused by Infinite Sapience. My 'satiable imagination feels infinite to me.

Yet, I am confident in stating that the Necessary Cause Is so far more Infinite than my finite imagination could ever be, as to render in spacetime context my imagination to so puny a level of sapience as to be statistically non existent....

[Stone holm]

I'm not sure of anything other than Existence including "me" and that all of Existence is Caused by Infinite Sapience. My 'satiable imagination feels infinite to me.

Yet, I am confident in stating that the Necessary Cause Is so far more Infinite than my finite imagination could ever be, as to render in spacetime context my imagination to so puny a level of sapience as to be statistically non existent....

Except you might be imagining it all, we may all be living inside your dream and therefore your imagination would not be puny, but massive.

[thesometimesaint]

Except you might be imagining it all, we may all be living inside your dream and therefore your imagination would not be puny, but massive.

To a certain extent we all invent our own reality, but the starting assumption is that we exist.

[volgadon]

Shades of Dr.Hasselbacher.

[Questing Beast]

Except you might be imagining it all, we may all be living inside your dream and therefore your imagination would not be puny, but massive.

Of course "I AM" imagining it all. But to "God" imagination becomes Infinite Creation. Each of "us" inside of creation (spacetime) is finite, with unique perspective on existence, and always will be.

Sharing some of this, this morning with my wife, I likened a higher intellect relating to a lower intellect, to a parent joining their toddler in the puddle, splashing and sitting down in it. Pure delight. Unique, no matter how many times you've done it with how many toddlers. It's also like rewatching a movie, because you are watching it with someone else for the first time, their first time, or the two of you enjoying this film together for the first time: no matter how many times you enjoy the same movie, if it is with someone else it is always different, because they are different. Eternity is like that. A CK level being will enjoy "condescending" to relate to a telestial being, because each one is unique and knows what you know in a different way. They do not know as much about reality as you know, so they cannot even apprehend all of it - their reality is less of Existence than your reality - but what they do know, you share in common, and the shared reality is on their level of comprehension and apprehension: and you enjoy them because they are unique, they "see" things differently than you do, which opens your view of Existence in ways you would never get if you did not know them. That is how it is with "God"....

Edited July 10, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Stone holm]

Of course "I AM" imagining it all. But to "God" imagination becomes Infinite Creation. Each of "us" inside of creation (spacetime) is finite, with unique perspective on existence, and always will be.

Sharing some of this, this morning with my wife, I likened a higher intellect relating to a lower intellect, to a parent joining their toddler in the puddle, splashing and sitting down in it. Pure delight. Unique, no matter how many times you've done it with how many toddlers. It's also like rewatching a movie, because you are watching it with someone else for the first time, their first time, or the two of you enjoying this film together for the first time: no matter how many times you enjoy the same movie, if it is with someone else it is always different, because they are different. Eternity is like that. A CK level being will enjoy "condescending" to relate to a telestial being, because each one is unique and knows what you know in a different way. They do not know as much about reality as you know, so they cannot even apprehend all of it - their reality is less of Existence than your reality - but what they do know, you share in common, and the shared reality is on their level of comprehension and apprehension: and you enjoy them because they are unique, they "see" things differently than you do, which opens your view of Existence in ways you would never get if you did not know them. That is how it is with "God"....

Well there may be some truth to Mark Twain's comment that "You go to heaven for the climate and hell for the company," but not exactly sure how that works with condescending for a visit.

[Questing Beast]

We already "condescend" all the time. We sense or even know when we are smarter or more knowledgeable than another. We also sense or even know when somebody else is "the smartest person in the room". This has always been and always will be part of our reality as human beings. In the world of humans there will always be somebody smarter than me. But I see things differently than they do, and visa versa. That's the joy of knowing others.

In the mortal realm we have imperfect brains complicating relationships in ways that never happen when we are living as immortals, so we can dispense with those often distressing imperfections after we get out of here....

[Stone holm]

We already "condescend" all the time. We sense or even know when we are smarter or more knowledgeable than another. We also sense or even know when somebody else is "the smartest person in the room". This has always been and always will be part of our reality as human beings. In the world of humans there will always be somebody smarter than me. But I see things differently than they do, and visa versa. That's the joy of knowing others.

In the mortal realm we have imperfect brains complicating relationships in ways that never happen when we are living as immortals, so we can dispense with those often distressing imperfections after we get out of here....

Hm? So you think that Satan has avoided the complication of an imperfect brain? How did that work out?

[Questing Beast]

Pure ignorance. It has nothing to do with a defective mind....

[WmLaw]

No advantage. A disembodied spirit, a soul that has died in mortality, is according to Mormon doctrine returned to the state it has always been since being "born" as a spirit. The mortality experience therefore becomes the odd event that must be believed by faith. Did I really undergo something we metaphysically refer to as "mortality"? It was all just a weird "dream", that's what will be tossed about. Missionaries coming to a dead atheist will have to convince him first that he actually lived and died. He will have to believe in his defunct mortality by faith, just as much as we now believe in the afterlife by faith....

Do you think that the Missionaries in the next life will be able to share further light and knowledge with those in spirit prison? or will they be limited to the same info contained in our earthly manuals? (or mortal understanding) Doesn't it seem likely that some of the unanswerable questions or the conflicts between religion/science will be cleared up in the next life?

[DBMormon]

The trouble seems to be we all have views and for many it is hard to let your held belief go, even for a moment, to consider the alternative views. I used to be very fundmental, dogmatic, McConkie Mormon..... Once you start considering the alternatives and the consequences of beliefs and take them to their very end and reprocussions. Then balance that with a God who lovews all his Children, one must make things fit in a different way. I could be totally off base but and likely have a lot to learn, but there is something to not forcing Mormonism as I was taught it, to fit as I was taught it, and rather take the basic Doctrines and see where they go, on their own. They are beautiful and deep and can be seen differently then the Mormonism I was taught

[canard78]

The trouble seems to be we all have views and for many it is hard to let your held belief go, even for a moment, to consider the alternative views. I used to be very fundmental, dogmatic, McConkie Mormon..... Once you start considering the alternatives and the consequences of beliefs and take them to their very end and reprocussions. Then balance that with a God who lovews all his Children, one must make things fit in a different way. I could be totally off base but and likely have a lot to learn, but there is something to not forcing Mormonism as I was taught it, to fit as I was taught it, and rather take the basic Doctrines and see where they go, on their own. They are beautiful and deep and can be seen differently then the Mormonism I was taught

I agree with this. If nothing else, this board has helped me change my point of standing. I'm looking from a different location. Thankfully the LDS church is a very broad tent as I've got quite close to the edge of it but still like being in it.

[Questing Beast]

Do you think that the Missionaries in the next life will be able to share further light and knowledge with those in spirit prison? or will they be limited to the same info contained in our earthly manuals? (or mortal understanding) Doesn't it seem likely that some of the unanswerable questions or the conflicts between religion/science will be cleared up in the next life?

Do our "manuals" and doctrines in mortality clear up questions about the preexistence? That is a rhetorical question since the answer is no. We have more knowledge here than we did "there", about earth life. And the same must be true if there is a literal spirit prison disembodied people get sent to, where the missionaries come. People "living" there will have plenty of knowledge about their venue, and the no longer remembered mortal experience will be no more real to them than the preexistence is to us now.... Edited July 11, 2013 by Questing Beast

[thesometimesaint]

I agree with this. If nothing else, this board has helped me change my point of standing. I'm looking from a different location. Thankfully the LDS church is a very broad tent as I've got quite close to the edge of it but still like being in it.

While there are a relatively small number of truth claims of the church that we are required to believe to attend the Temple. General membership is a much bigger tent. It's even big enough for us sometimesaints.

[Stone holm]

The trouble seems to be we all have views and for many it is hard to let your held belief go, even for a moment, to consider the alternative views. I used to be very fundmental, dogmatic, McConkie Mormon..... Once you start considering the alternatives and the consequences of beliefs and take them to their very end and reprocussions. Then balance that with a God who lovews all his Children, one must make things fit in a different way. I could be totally off base but and likely have a lot to learn, but there is something to not forcing Mormonism as I was taught it, to fit as I was taught it, and rather take the basic Doctrines and see where they go, on their own. They are beautiful and deep and can be seen differently then the Mormonism I was taught

While I agree with much of the sentiment here and am definitely not a McConkie Mormon, as I have said before I do not accept the notion of an all powerful God, I believe Him to be circumscribed by certain laws not of His making which govern the creative process and its results. I say this because I do believe in a God who is all good and the only way I can reconcile this belief with the ultimately horrid notion of the torment and death of Christ as being a requirement of the Plan of Salvation is that some things which are required are beyond Heavenly Father's control or ability to change.

[Tacenda]

While I agree with much of the sentiment here and am definitely not a McConkie Mormon, as I have said before I do not accept the notion of an all powerful God, I believe Him to be circumscribed by certain laws not of His making which govern the creative process and its results. I say this because I do believe in a God who is all good and the only way I can reconcile this belief with the ultimately horrid notion of the torment and death of Christ as being a requirement of the Plan of Salvation is that some things which are required are beyond Heavenly Father's control or ability to change.

The way I way reconcile the belief of the death of Christ being a requirement of the plan is that Jesus is God incarnate, this is a new way of looking at it for me. And helps tremendously to still believe in a loving Father that He literally came down and give His life for us. So not the LDS teaching that our brother came down but the actual Father came down and this gives me comfort.

[Calm]

The way I way reconcile the belief of the death of Christ being a requirement of the plan is that Jesus is God incarnate, this is a new way of looking at it for me. And helps tremendously to still believe in a loving Father that He literally came down and give His life for us. So not the LDS teaching that our brother came down but the actual Father came down and this gives me comfort.

I am not trying to debate you on this, but you do realize this is not a mainstream Christian interpretation of the Trinity...at least officially, there may be members of different denominations that hold this belief.

If I recall correctly, the only church of significant size that believes this are the Oneness Pentacostals:

"Oneness Pentecostalism derives its distinctive name from its teaching on the Godhead, which is popularly referred to as the Oneness doctrine.[2] This doctrine states that there is one God, a singular spirit who manifests himself in many different ways, including as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This stands in sharp contrast to the doctrine of three distinct and eternal "persons" posited by Trinitarian theology. Oneness believers baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, commonly referred to as Jesus-name baptism, rather than using the Trinitarian formula....

Oneness believers are often accused of being Monistic or Modalistic.[21] They have also occasionally been accused of Arianism, usually by isolated individuals rather than church organizations.[22] While Oneness theologian Dr. David Bernard indicates that Modalistic Monarchianism and Oneness are essentially the same, and that Sabellius was basically correct, (so long as one does not understand Modalism to be the same as patripassianism),[18] and while Arius also believed that God is a singular Person, Bernard vehemently denies any connection to Arianism or Subordinationism in Oneness teaching.[21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism

[Tacenda]

I am not trying to debate you on this, but you do realize this is not a mainstream Christian interpretation of the Trinity...at least officially, there may be members of different denominations that hold this belief.

If I recall correctly, the only church of significant size that believes this are the Oneness Pentacostals:

"Oneness Pentecostalism derives its distinctive name from its teaching on the Godhead, which is popularly referred to as the Oneness doctrine.[2] This doctrine states that there is one God, a singular spirit who manifests himself in many different ways, including as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This stands in sharp contrast to the doctrine of three distinct and eternal "persons" posited by Trinitarian theology. Oneness believers baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, commonly referred to as Jesus-name baptism, rather than using the Trinitarian formula....

Oneness believers are often accused of being Monistic or Modalistic.[21] They have also occasionally been accused of Arianism, usually by isolated individuals rather than church organizations.[22] While Oneness theologian Dr. David Bernard indicates that Modalistic Monarchianism and Oneness are essentially the same, and that Sabellius was basically correct, (so long as one does not understand Modalism to be the same as patripassianism),[18] and while Arius also believed that God is a singular Person, Bernard vehemently denies any connection to Arianism or Subordinationism in Oneness teaching.[21]

http://en.wikipedia...._Pentecostalism

I more liken my newest "wanna be" belief to be the idea portrayed on this website https://bible.org/article/why-god-became-man I never thought there would be a day that I became a Pentecostal! You're so cute Cal, I love how you sort of mother me or set me straight. I miss my mom, and you remind me of her, she was very smart and was a devout LDS and very often lovingly set her kids on the right path when we would veer off.

[volgadon]

From p. 89-90 from the Orthodox Way by Kallistos Ware.

[Calm]

I more liken my newest "wanna be" belief to be the idea portrayed on this website https://bible.org/ar...-god-became-man I never thought there would be a day that I became a Pentecostal! You're so cute Cal, I love how you sort of mother me or set me straight. I miss my mom, and you remind me of her, she was very smart and was a devout LDS and very often lovingly set her kids on the right path when we would veer off.

I appreciate the compliment though today I don't feel all that smart.

Can you point me to where it explains along the lines of "the actual Father came down". I have not read the whole thing...and cannot today due to stuff I won't go into because it will sound too much like whining....but there was this part which sounds to me quite different:

He always was God the Son; He continued to be God the Son in His earthly sojourn as Man; He is God the Son in heaven today as He will remain throughout eternity. He is ''Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8).....

God was ''sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin'' (Romans 8:30).

I can't set you straight if I don't understand your position.

Edited July 12, 2013 by calmoriah

[volgadon]

I appreciate the compliment though today I don't feel all that smart.

Can you point me to where it explains along the lines of "the actual Father came down". I have not read the whole thing...and cannot today due to stuff I won't go into because it will sound too much like whining....but there was this part which sounds to me quite different:

I can't set you straight if I don't understand your position.

The link seems all about God the SON becoming man.

[Stone holm]

The way I way reconcile the belief of the death of Christ being a requirement of the plan is that Jesus is God incarnate, this is a new way of looking at it for me. And helps tremendously to still believe in a loving Father that He literally came down and give His life for us. So not the LDS teaching that our brother came down but the actual Father came down and this gives me comfort.

Well that is interesting, but its not Mormonism. Try thinking of it this way -- God's authority, that which makes Him a God, is because the intelligences of the universe respect and obey Him. In order to extend that respect and hence obedience to His spirit children, it was necessary for one person to live a perfect life and thereby be entitled to a "fullness of joy". That person not only had to live a perfect life, but had to prove that He so loved His spirit siblings that His joy would not be full unless He had them with Him in the hereafter as free agents who could interact with Him like they had in the pre-existence (not as robots like Satan's plan would have produced). The test for this love, as Jesus put it was that of a person laying down his life for another. In Christ's case that was an even greater sacrifice because He had the potential to forestall death indefinitely because of His heritage. So He drank the bitter cup. It wasn't Heavenly Father's idea, it was just the recipe for baking the cake. As to why not all make Exaltation that is because the power of a god is an awesome thing, and you do not trust an untrustworthy person with those powers anymore than you would hand a toddler an loaded .357 Magnum.

[Questing Beast]

While I agree with much of the sentiment here and am definitely not a McConkie Mormon, as I have said before I do not accept the notion of an all powerful God, I believe Him to be circumscribed by certain laws not of His making which govern the creative process and its results. I say this because I do believe in a God who is all good and the only way I can reconcile this belief with the ultimately horrid notion of the torment and death of Christ as being a requirement of the Plan of Salvation is that some things which are required are beyond Heavenly Father's control or ability to change.

You just haven't figured out who to blame yet. I know who to blame: the "Necessary Cause", which put GtF and the rest of "usen" in this situation. And, as I cannot accept that such a plan is anything more than human slant on the topic of the purpose of existence, I have dispensed with "the plan of salvation" as presented. We're already perfectly immortal, but our knowledge is incomplete and always will be, so we do this mortal life stuff to learn from. Plus, it's probably the ultimate "trip", we can't resist having another go at it. "This life" is indeed one life, one mortality never to be duplicated by anyone. Prepare yourselves.... Edited July 12, 2013 by Questing Beast

[Questing Beast]

The way I way reconcile the belief of the death of Christ being a requirement of the plan is that Jesus is God incarnate, this is a new way of looking at it for me. And helps tremendously to still believe in a loving Father that He literally came down and give His life for us. So not the LDS teaching that our brother came down but the actual Father came down and this gives me comfort.

How very BoM of you. I agree with that actually, IF it literally happened, which I am not convinced of....

[Stone holm]

You just haven't figured out who to blame yet. I know who to blame: the "Necessary Cause", which put GtF and the rest of "usen" in this situation. And, as I cannot accept that such a plan is anything more than human slant on the topic of the purpose of existence, I have dispensed with "the plan of salvation" as presented. We're already perfectly immortal, but our knowledge is incomplete and always will be, so we this mortal life stuff to learn from. Plus, it's probably the ultimate "trip", we can't resist having another go at it. "This life" is indeed one life, one mortality never to be duplicated by anyone. Prepare yourselves....

Well again, I can understand your position which is fine if it works for you, but it is not brand Mormon.