Atheism, Theism, And Coping Mechanisms

[changed]

I have now heard this argument/thought several times - that believers use God as a crutch to help deal with death/injustice/life in general... but does it take more guts to look into an abyss of nothingness, or to look into the vast expanse of eternal existence? I personally think the idea of blipping into nothingness can be used as a coping mechanism - that nothingness is the ultimate escape, the ultimate in getting away and hiding from it all. If you want to find a place where all your cares and worries are erased - atheism can provide that place. In the Bible there is a scripture about all tears being wiped away, but I'm not so sure about that - there is also a scripture about God weeping (2 Kings 8:11) - so I'm not so sure that eternal existence is all bliss and perfection.

What say ye?

Do you think it is scarier to face eternal existence? or to face nothingness?

[Glenn101]

I have now heard this argument/thought several times - that believers use God as a crutch to help deal with death/injustice/life in general... but does it take more guts to look into an abyss of nothingness, or to look into the vast expanse of eternal existence? I personally think the idea of blipping into nothingness can be used as a coping mechanism - that nothingness is the ultimate escape, the ultimate in getting away and hiding from it all. If you want to find a place where all your cares and worries are erased - atheism can provide that place. In the Bible there is a scripture about all tears being wiped away, but I'm not so sure about that - there is also a scripture about God weeping (2 Kings 8:11) - so I'm not so sure that eternal existence is all bliss and perfection.

What say ye?

Do you think it is scarier to face eternal existence? or to face nothingness?

Nothingness is easy to face. There are many times I have yearned for nothingness. There is nothing scary at all about that. To me, that is.

Glenn

[changed]

Nothingness is easy to face.

I agree.

Here is an interesting study by the American Journal of Pscychiatry that supports it: Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt

"Religious affiliation is associated with less suicidal behavior"

The fact that atheists are more suicidal than theists (given equally depressed populations) suggests that atheists see death as an escape route, while theists do not.

Although, when you lose a loved one, theists are supposed to be comforted by the fact that "they are not really gone", if you stop and think about death not really being an end, there are aspects of death that can be much harder for theists to face than atheists.

[Alvino]

I have now heard this argument/thought several times - that believers use God as a crutch to help deal with death/injustice/life in general...

The only real objection is that belief in God is incorrect (I'm an atheist). No one can seriously expect people to not use whatever beliefs they take as correct to cope with the tragedies in life, specially when life can be so tragic. That would be terribly inhumane and almost a case of blaming the victim. If you are going through, say, the death of a child, I don't care if you believe in God or no God, Muslim or Jewish, I want you to use whatever methods you find best to get over the pain.

but does it take more guts to look into an abyss of nothingness, or to look into the vast expanse of eternal existence? I personally think the idea of blipping into nothingness can be used as a coping mechanism - that nothingness is the ultimate escape, the ultimate in getting away and hiding from it all. If you want to find a place where all your cares and worries are erased - atheism can provide that place. In the Bible there is a scripture about all tears being wiped away, but I'm not so sure about that - there is also a scripture about God weeping (2 Kings 8:11) - so I'm not so sure that eternal existence is all bliss and perfection.

What say ye?

Do you think it is scarier to face eternal existence? or to face nothingness?

Although culturally related, you aren't talking about atheism but belief that there is no afterlife. To this I'll say that there are almost as many approaches as people. My dad finds the idea of nothing existing after death unbearable so he takes his belief in a just God and an afterlife dearly. It also depends on who you are. If you are bad person, you might find the idea of going to non-existence soothing. If you are a good person but life generally sucks for you, going into nothingness might seem soothing as well. Etc.

[changed]

... My dad finds the idea of nothing existing after death unbearable so he takes his belief in a just God and an afterlife dearly....

This is the sentimate that I hear over and over again - I suspect that if you ask your dad why he believes in God - it is NOT because he is scared of death, but that he believes in God because of spiritual experiences that he has had. I find that it misrepresents the beliefs of theists to suggest that their beliefs are based on a fear of death, when they are not.

[Alvino]

I agree.

Here is an interesting study by the American Journal of Pscychiatry that supports it: Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt

"Religious affiliation is associated with less suicidal behavior"

The fact that atheists are more suicidal than theists (given equally depressed populations) suggests that atheists see death as an escape route, while theists do not.

Although, when you lose a loved one, theists are supposed to be comforted by the fact that "they are not really gone", if you stop and think about death not really being an end, there are aspects of death that can be much harder for theists to face than atheists.

It is important to isolate the belief in continuing to exist after physical death from the belief in the kind of afterlife that will ensue. This study you link doesn't isolate such a factor. The ideas the study you linked took as important factors were the moral objections religious people had towards committing suicide. If I believe life after death will be nothing but fantastic even if I commit suicide to get there, then it's hard to say how that's not easier to face than nothingness. But that's not what religious people are taught in Church.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Alvino

[Alvino]

This is the sentimate that I hear over and over again - I suspect that if you ask your dad why he believes in God - it is NOT because he is scared of death, but that he believes in God because of spiritual experiences that he has had. I find that it misrepresents the beliefs of theists to suggest that their beliefs are based on a fear of death, when they are not.

I wasn't suggesting that he believes in God because he finds the idea of total death insuperable. Taking beliefs one finds comforting is different from accepting those beliefs because they are comforting. And you are right, he does believe because of miracles unrelated to this; I wasn't suggesting otherwise, either.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Alvino

[changed]

...This study you link doesn't isolate ...

There are a lot of speculations within the study - all of which are unverified. The only solid data it provides is that suicide rates are higher with atheists. Why that is can be debated and traced to a multitude of reasons of coarse, but certainly one of the reasons (not the only one, but one of them) is that atheists see death as an escape (while theists do not). That's the point of suicide afterall - to end suffering, and to escape.

In any event, I think it takes more guts to believe in an eternal existence with all the responsibilities that go along with that, and think that the notion "they just believe because they can't handle death" is misplaced.

[changed]

Taking beliefs one finds comforting is different from accepting those beliefs because they are comforting.

I agree.

And you are right, he does believe because of miracles unrelated to this; I wasn't suggesting otherwise, either.

thinking about it, it is more than miracles and spiritual experiences that causes someone to believe I think, what is a miracle to one is not to another. It seems to be more of a personal choice based on character/personality, and the underlying character that causes belief is not one of fear - I think it's the opposite of fear, it's a willingness to adventure into greater possibilities, to face bigger challenges, to exist at a higher level. ... to me, the fearful personality lends itself to shirnking into / searching for nothingness - those who "just want to disappear" kind of a thing, which is sad.

[JDave]

I have now heard this argument/thought several times - that believers use God as a crutch to help deal with death/injustice/life in general... but does it take more guts to look into an abyss of nothingness, or to look into the vast expanse of eternal existence? I personally think the idea of blipping into nothingness can be used as a coping mechanism - that nothingness is the ultimate escape, the ultimate in getting away and hiding from it all. If you want to find a place where all your cares and worries are erased - atheism can provide that place. In the Bible there is a scripture about all tears being wiped away, but I'm not so sure about that - there is also a scripture about God weeping (2 Kings 8:11) - so I'm not so sure that eternal existence is all bliss and perfection.

What say ye?

Do you think it is scarier to face eternal existence? or to face nothingness?

The idea that I heard was that those religious who believe in some sort of Finale event can use that as a crutch to not effect more change in the world. There is the expectation that it should be bad in the last days anyway, after all. And soon enough God will come down and purge all that yuckiness out anyway.

[changed]

...soon enough God will come down and purge all that yuckiness out anyway.

you mean saved by grace, or by works? ... perhaps the "saved by Grace" crowd uses it as a crutch, but I personally believe that works are involved with it, that we are going to be fighting in the battle.... it is nice to know the outcome of said battle though

Edited May 21, 2013 by changed

[Alvino]

There are a lot of speculations within the study - all of which are unverified. The only solid data it provides is that suicide rates are higher with atheists. Why that is can be debated and traced to a multitude of reasons of coarse, but certainly one of the reasons (not the only one, but one of them) is that atheists see death as an escape (while theists do not). That's the point of suicide afterall - to end suffering, and to escape.

Thing is, though, that the study does say moral objections to suicide are a factor, not the belief that life continues after death. I want you to notice that both belief in total death and belief in an afterlife are hard to compare because belief in total death doesn't have any more variables while belief in an afterlife does (i.e. what kind of an afterlife?). If what you are comparing is the effect of belief in total death vs belief in an afterlife, you have to take into account the beliefs people have about and surrounding that afterlife. The study you linked does that by pointing out moral objections to suicide that, I believe, have as their primary source religion in this case. As I've stated here before, it would be hard to say that confronting nothingness was easier than confronting an afterlife which is pure bliss regardless of how you get to that afterlife (maybe through suicide). If you teach people that you will get to that bliss regardless of whether you kill yourself, chances are you will have more suicides than people who believe there is nothing after death.

In any event, I think it takes more guts to believe in an eternal existence with all the responsibilities that go along with that, and think that the notion "they just believe because they can't handle death" is misplaced.

I don't support the "they believe because they can't handle death" view, as I've said.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Alvino

[pmccombs1]

I have now heard this argument/thought several times - that believers use God as a crutch to help deal with death/injustice/life in general...

And why not? Generally these things are said when one wants to criticize... that religion is a crutch for the weak. But we are all weak.

but does it take more guts to look into an abyss of nothingness, or to look into the vast expanse of eternal existence? I personally think the idea of blipping into nothingness can be used as a coping mechanism - that nothingness is the ultimate escape, the ultimate in getting away and hiding from it all.

If you want to find a place where all your cares and worries are erased - atheism can provide that place.

Well, nihilism can. I have found surprisingly beautiful and peaceful teachings in nihilism. The ultimate good of Buddhism is a species of annihilation; the termination of samsara and the loss of the self. Yes, some people really do find a stoic beauty in this teaching of nothing after life, and it can actually serve to enhance their mortal happiness a great deal.

Some atheists believe in an afterlife; not all are convinced that we "blip into nothingness."

In the Bible there is a scripture about all tears being wiped away, but I'm not so sure about that - there is also a scripture about God weeping (2 Kings 8:11) - so I'm not so sure that eternal existence is all bliss and perfection.

Yes, how awful would it be, eternal bliss and perfection? What's the point of that? Just my opinion.

Neither side requires more "guts" than the other. It boils down to the narrative that one prefers or has been taught is most desirable.

[changed]

...confronting nothingness was easier than confronting an afterlife which is pure bliss

I don't think religious people believe in a "pure bliss" afterlife, and it does appear that confronting nothingness is easier than confronting the responsibilities and consequences associated with eternal existence.

[changed]

...The ultimate good of Buddhism is a species of annihilation; the termination of samsara and the loss of the self.

I agree that Buddhism has a beautiful way of explaining losing self, I do think the point of losing oneself is to join with / experience something larger though -

He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

it's isolationism(self) vs. love/unity/togetherness.... I'm not sure what the point of losing yourself is, if it isn't to experience love.

Yes, some people really do find a stoic beauty in this teaching of nothing after life, and it can actually serve to enhance their mortal happiness a great deal.

which confuses me, because everyone claims to value love, and yet eternal separation is the opposite of love.

Some atheists believe in an afterlife; not all are convinced that we "blip into nothingness."

an afterlife without God? it seems at some point they would have to admit if there is eternal life - then there is a diversity of eternal life - with spectrums ranging from good to evil... and if there is eternal good, then there would also be the ultimate sacrifice, the ultimate love etc. etc. too - and that means God. I really don't think you can separate eternal existence from God, if you have one, you also have the other.

Yes, how awful would it be, eternal bliss and perfection? What's the point of that? Just my opinion.

I guess you have to define what bliss is, and what perfection is... certainly playing harps on golden streets isn't what it's about though.

Neither side requires more "guts" than the other.

I disagree.

[pmccombs1]

I agree that Buddhism has a beautiful way of explaining losing self, I do think the point of losing oneself is to join with / experience something larger though -

It is the self that experiences. Without self, there is no experience. The end of suffering is the end of experience and the termination of samsara in brahma.

it's isolationism(self) vs. love/unity/togetherness.... I'm not sure what the point of losing yourself is, if it isn't to experience love.

For the Buddhist, the point of losing yourself is to end the cycle of death and re-death. It is to end suffering.

which confuses me, because everyone claims to value love, and yet eternal separation is the opposite of love.

No, it isn't. Hate is the opposite of love. Annihilation is not at all the same thing as "eternal separation."

an afterlife without God? it seems at some point they would have to admit if there is eternal life - then there is a diversity of eternal life - with spectrums ranging from good to evil... and if there is eternal good, then there would also be the ultimate sacrifice, the ultimate love etc. etc. too - and that means God. I really don't think you can separate eternal existence from God, if you have one, you also have the other.

I have one atheist friend who believes in and has experienced life after death, and yet denies the existence of God with certainty. He would claim that everything you just said is non-sequitur false syllogism and superfluous. He has degrees in history and religion and is a thoughtful man.

I guess you have to define what bliss is, and what perfection is... certainly playing harps on golden streets isn't what it's about though.

Whatever they are, bliss and perfection at least suggest no further development along those lines. The idea that there can be no greater joy is bliss. The idea that there can be no further improvement is perfection. In a sense, that's the definition of damnation. But I prefer Eugene England's God who progresses.

I disagree.

Would you say that the belief in nothing is the greater cop-out? A crutch for the weaker? Hm. Could be. Depends on the individual and on one's perspective. In many cases, I view the way some people cling to certainty in religious dogmas to be the greater crutch. But it bears them up, and that is the point. People need to be borne up in order to make their way through this life.

Edited May 21, 2013 by pmccombs1

[CV75]

What say ye?

Do you think it is scarier to face eternal existence? or to face nothingness?

I think they are the same, for the following reason:

By coping (dealing effectively with something difficult), one admits that he cannot otherwise deal with the object of difficulty. Atheists admit they cannot deal with spiritual life effectively (hence their need for a "substitute" for God and religion), and Theists admit they cannot deal with spiritual death effectively (hence their need for God and religion).

If fear is at the root of admitting a need for coping, then fear of spiritual death is faith just as much as fear of spiritual life is knowledge. One cannot simultaneously have knowledge, fear and a coping mechanism unless he denies one of these three elements (as well as faith). One cannot have faith and not cope effectively, and so denies none of these, and has the additional advantage of faith leading to knowledge.

[changed]

... Hate is the opposite of love. ...

I disagree - in order to hate someone, you have to have to actually care about them... I do think that indifference / apathy / separation is the opposite of love.

[changed]

By coping (dealing effectively with something difficult), ...

this got me to look up the wiki on coping:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coping_mechanism#Types_of_coping_strategies

interesting to read through the positive and negative coping techniques sections.

[Alvino]

I don't think religious people believe in a "pure bliss" afterlife, and it does appear that confronting nothingness is easier than confronting the responsibilities and consequences associated with eternal existence.

You need to read more carefully, changed. I'm not saying religious people

believe in an afterlife that is pure bliss. I'm saying we should separate between the belief

In an afterlife from the beliefs about an afterlife.

[pmccombs1]

I disagree - in order to hate someone, you have to have to actually care about them... I do think that indifference / apathy / separation is the opposite of love.

That's an interesting perspective. I don't agree with it, yet... but I'm thinking about it.

[thesometimesaint]

This works for me. I use my religion to help me to try to become a better person. Not out of a fear of punishments from God or as a desire for rewards from God. But because being better satisfies that need in me to make a difference in this world. Anyway; if the Atheists are correct none of us will know the difference anyway.

[pmccombs1]

... I use my religion ...

I think that is the important statement. Religion can be a tool, whether for coping with life, self-improvement, or fulfilling any other needs that people feel are served by it.

[Ahab]

The only real objection is that belief in God is incorrect (I'm an atheist).

If you are right and there is no God, then belief in God would not be correct. You're wrong because there is, but you wouldn't be wrong if there wasn't. Do you see the logic now? If nothing else at least be consistent in your own ideas, please.

[Alvino]

If you are right and there is no God, then belief in God would not be correct. You're wrong because there is, but you wouldn't be wrong if there wasn't. Do you see the logic now? If nothing else at least be consistent in your own ideas, please.

I don't get what you're saying.