Female "Priesthood Session" Held At University Of Utah Saturday Night

[CASteinman]

Do I believe people's hearts are in the right place? Some of them. I don't know the people and I wasn't there.

I kinda think some people may have good intentions.. Well, let me put it this way, I am hoping that is so. However with that Priesthood Meeting I feel that they have crossed a line of sorts and, it may be that even if they do have good intentions, they are being swayed by people not so pure.

[CASteinman]

Because, yes, it does bug me if this conclusion is derived simply because she was ex-communicated.

I was told it was 'pretty obvious'. But to me, its not obvious.

I think he said she is apostate. That was the reason he gave. Not her excommunication. Although they are related.

Are you bugged that Mormons devalue apostates views? Why?

[Avatar4321]

Says who?

......God....

[smac97]

I think he said she is apostate. That was the reason he gave. Not her excommunication. Although they are related.

Are you bugged that Mormons devalue apostates views? Why?

I have the same question. An apostate is defined by his/her perspective on the Church, its doctrines, etc. I think the Saints are entitled to make a priori conclusions about the views of such a person.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Damien the Leper]

I kinda think some people may have good intentions.. Well, let me put it this way, I am hoping that is so. However with that Priesthood Meeting I feel that they have crossed a line of sorts and, it may be that even if they do have good intentions, they are being swayed by people not so pure.

I'm not going to say you're wrong because, as I said before, I don't agree with the meeting in the first place. There does seem to be a line that was crossed.

[Damien the Leper]

......God....

Who says God says so? Can you provide anything more reasonable than hearsay?

[CASteinman]

I'm not going to say you're wrong because, as I said before, I don't agree with the meeting in the first place. There does seem to be a line that was crossed.

And I am not so certain I am right. I am not certain that they do have good intentions and I do not know for certain that they are being swayed. And in fact, I do not know for certain that they crossed a line.

But.. I *suspect* or *hope* they have good intentions.

I *believe* they are being led astray

and I feel pretty strongly that they crossed a line.

[Damien the Leper]

And I am not so certain I am right. I am not certain that they do have good intentions and I do not know for certain that they are being swayed. And in fact, I do not know for certain that they crossed a line.

But.. I *suspect* or *hope* they have good intentions.

I *believe* they are being led astray

and I feel pretty strongly that they crossed a line.

I understand and respect this perspective. You and I don't often agree on much. After all, you're an orthodox-traditional junkie and I'm exactly not that.

You and others will be removed if the labeling continues. There have been far too many insults in this thread.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Valentinus

[jwhitlock]

Again, you're stating an opinion. Personally, I don't agree with the "priesthood meeting". Do I believe people's hearts are in the right place? Some of them. I don't know the people and I wasn't there.

I backed up my "opinion"; you simply want to continue to dwell on how "opinions" are somehow invalid, and not address the common sense concept that apostates are not, by nature, supporters of the church.

[jwhitlock]

What are you talking about?!? If you think that the Restoration Movement or the LDS church has never been or is not influenced by humanity...you have bigger problems to deal with.

Try hard not to over-hype things or to infer that I've claimed the church is not influenced by humanity. I'm talking about this particular situation and determining where they're really coming from. Trying to insert some kind of generic moral equivalence in here about all situations where the church is influenced by people is simply invalid.

And yes, I do have bigger problems to deal with. But one of them is not a clear perspective of where the battle lines are drawn when it comes to the church and apostate groups.

[Damien the Leper]

I backed up my "opinion"; you simply want to continue to dwell on how "opinions" are somehow invalid, and not address the common sense concept that apostates are not, by nature, supporters of the church.

Apologies. I don't believe the Toscano's are apostates any more than I would consider Moses Thatcher or Orson Pratt apostates. Ed Decker...that's a real apostate.

[smac97]

Apologies. I don't believe the Toscano's are apostates any more than I would consider Moses Thatcher or Orson Pratt apostates. Ed Decker...that's a real apostate.

Moses Thatcher remained in and supportive of the LDS Church to the end of his life. Orson Pratt was excommunicated but returned to the Church. So you are correct in that they are not aptly described as "apostates."

Margaret Toscano was excommunicated for apostasy and remains an excommunicate to this day. And she continues to publicly oppose and criticize the LDS Church. That kinda sorta sounds apostasy-ish to me.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Avatar4321]

Who says God says so? Can you provide anything more reasonable than hearsay?

Ask Him for yourself.

[smac97]

Here's an interesting letter to the editor in the Trib:

While it would be nice to see some dresses in the red chairs at LDS General Conference and the female perspective treated equally instead of condescendingly — which would definitely strengthen Mormon counsels at every level — I personally have no desire to be in a bishopric, stake presidency or stake high council.

First, note the slur against the leaders of the Church published to the world (that they treat the "female perspective" - apparently all women think alike - "condescendingly"). I wonder how widespread this contempt for the Brethren is among the I-want-the-priesthood crowd.

Second, note how she immediately conditions her her desire for the priesthood based on what she wants to do with it. She wants it for the "nice" stuff (seeing women in the red chairs) but not for the time-consuming or difficult things like leadership positions. This lady is publicly declaring the limitations on her devotion to priesthood service even though she doesn't have the priesthood.

Third, it's "councils," not "counsels." Just an FYI, Liz.

Still, it would be nice to have the priesthood power to give blessings to family and friends. I’d like that, and I think I listen to the spirit’s still small voice as much as the men I know, so I’d be just as good at speaking for God.

Ah. Pride. What an excellent reason to demand the priesthood.

So count me one Mormon sister who would like LDS Church President Thomas S. Monson to ask God about ordaining women to the priesthood. He should also ask God to ask his wife what she thinks.

Right. Because God domineers over His wife.

What a repellant letter this is.

-Smac

[Nathair/|\]

Those who make demands of the Lord Himself (or His mortal leaders) to perform according to their criteria actually want a God who will serve them, not vice versa!

- Neal A. Maxwell, Not My Will, But Thine (Deseret Book, 2008), 92. (quoted in Smith, Greg: "Thoughts After General Conference")

[KevinG]

That tears it. The next General Young Womens' meeting I'm protesting tha lack of young men in attendance by wearing a dress to temple square!

[jwhitlock]

Right. Because God domineers over His wife.

What a repellant letter this is.

-Smac

They're starting to sound like Sonja Johnson. In her day, she was considered so radical that NOW rejected her. Some of her stuff was pretty ugly, and it looks like it's starting to get repeated.

Not a good trend.

[wenglund]

Please keep in mind that imitation is sincerest form of flattery. Let us welcome these ladies' envy as recognition of the importance of the priesthood.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[DonBradley]

Hey Smac,

Though I didn't attend the event, I heard about it from friends who did.

Based on their reports, it seems fairly mild to me, rather like the profiles on their website ordainwomen.org.

If they were staging protests at the temple or something, I'd think they were way over the top (and out of their minds), but I like the fact that they seem to have opened up a non-confrontational space to discuss differences. We lack that so badly in LDS culture. My experience with Sunday School has shown me how afraid people are of expressing questions, doubts, things that bother them, or even just views they know may not be shared by the majority. That's extremely unhealthy, both for individuals and for the community. I'd far rather see agreeable disagreement, which, at least so far, is what I see on the Ordain Women site and in the reports I've heard about their Saturday night meeting.

(BTW, I don't think the Ordain Women meeting was actually meant to "compete" with General Priesthood, since none of the women involved were going to that. Rather, I think it was to compete with the women's event organized for that night by Deseret Book. While competing with a Conference session seems confrontational to the Church, competing with a Deseret Book women's event seems to me, while perhaps a tad snarky, utterly benign.)

Don

[Damien the Leper]

Moses Thatcher remained in and supportive of the LDS Church to the end of his life. Orson Pratt was excommunicated but returned to the Church. So you are correct in that they are not aptly described as "apostates."

Margaret Toscano was excommunicated for apostasy and remains an excommunicate to this day. And she continues to publicly oppose and criticize the LDS Church. That kinda sorta sounds apostasy-ish to me.

Thanks,

-Smac

Toscano has never openly opposed the church itself. She has opposed certain aspects and positions. She's not throwing the baby out with the bath water. Criticizing the church doesn't make you an anti-Mormon or an apostate. That's just silly.

[Damien the Leper]

Right. Because God domineers over His wife.

What a repellant letter this is.

-Smac

I agree. Heavenly Mother acts within Her own Power and Dominion and needs no permission from any deity to do what She wants.

[Damien the Leper]

That tears it. The next General Young Womens' meeting I'm protesting tha lack of young men in attendance by wearing a dress to temple square!

I won't be joining you, Kevin. Not even I'm gay enough to do drag...

[KevinG]

I won't be joining you, Kevin. Not even I'm gay enough to do drag...

It would be modest I promise.

[DonBradley]

I won't be joining you, Kevin. Not even I'm gay enough to do drag...

Stop insulting Father Abraham!

Don

[Damien the Leper]

It would be modest I promise.

Nope! Not gonna happen. I will keep my man-card thank you very much.