mfbukowski Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 I can easily (certainly?) substitute "certainty" for either "faith" or "knowledge" in many instances, and also add that I am certain "enough," just for added flavor (or an appeal to grace)!Well I think it avoids all the silliness about whether or not you can "know" something which is allegedly "untrue". It just makes the whole problem go away. Of course you can be mistaken- and be certain about something which is incorrect. Certainty is a statement about a subjective state, not about some objective reality that we cannot know about.It makes that whole silly metaphysical idea go away, that "knowing" has something to do with a metaphysical "TRVTH" etched in stone in some Platonic sense.Truth is certainty about what works in practical experience and not much more or less. And we get to be mistaken about what is true and what isn't. It just simplifies it all, I think.
mfbukowski Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) I think you're thinking of people who don't realize he is a person and instead think he is only those attributes they associate with God, but he still has those attributes even though they don't realize he is (also) a person, who has those attributes.Like people who say God doens't have a body, and instead just think of him as love and wisdom and those omni-whatevers. They're right about his attributes being love and wisdom,. though, so they're not totally wrong. They just don't acknowledge God as a real person, with a real body, just as real as ours is. If they had to take a test on their knowledge of God they wouldn't be getting 100% on their score, that's all. But who of us really knows 100% about God at this point anyway.Yes, that's the whole point of this. So if you are worshiping attributes, you are using a Neoplatonic, sectarian way of seeing it- not seeing an embodied God WITH attributes which are abstractions, you are worshiping the idea of "Omniscience" or his "Essence" or whatever instead of worshiping Him.I am just disagreeing with the way you are putting it- not what I already know is your true attitude. I know you don't worship "Omniscience" - or "Oneness" - it just sounds as if you are saying that. Edited February 28, 2013 by mfbukowski
Ahab Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 Yes, that's the whole point of this. So if you are worshiping attributes, you are using a Neoplatonic, sectarian way of seeing it- not seeing an embodied God WITH attributes which are abstractions, you are worshiping the idea of "Omniscience" or his "Essence" or whatever instead of worshiping Him.Here's the translation process that goes on in my head:Yes, that's the whole point of this. So if you are worshipping emulating or trying to develop attributes, you are using a Neoplatonic, sectarian way of seeing it- not seeing an embodied God WITH attributes which are abstractions, you are worshiping emulating or trying to develop or become the epitome of the idea of "Omniscience" or his "Essence" or whatever instead of worshiping emulating or trying to be like Him.Can you see now why I don't agree with what I think you are saying? I am trying become like him in all of his attributes.I am just disagreeing with the way you are putting it- not what I already know is your true attitude.Ditto.I know you don't worship "Omniscience" - it just sounds as if you are saying that.I am.
CV75 Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 Well I think it avoids all the silliness about whether or not you can "know" something which is allegedly "untrue".The discussion on faith and knowledge unfortunately became a tangent as I tried to use the relationship between faith and knowledge / imperfect knowledge and perfect knowledge as a means to illustrate the relationship between "emulation" and "being" in that one follows the other (see post #152, 158). This can be also apply to a continuum of certainty, where one state follows the other as line is built upon line and precept upon precept.But that exercise was only an attempt to show that while we can emulate with both faith and knowledge,emulating God is not the same thing as emulating individually identified gifts and attributes.
CV75 Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 I am just disagreeing with the way you are putting it- not what I already know is your true attitude. I know you don't worship "Omniscience" - or "Oneness" - it just sounds as if you are saying that.I am.Ahab: Is this a kind of a word game where “God is Truth” means “Truth is God” – and so to worship one is to worship the other and either one is both God and Truth? If so, it is just as well to say “God is Truth,” which seems more plainly scriptural, in that all the references I’ve seen has truth coming from God, or He says things like, “I am the truth” or “The truth is in me,” but not “The truth is me” or “I am in the truth." And if so, it is not just as well to say "I worship God?"
Ahab Posted February 28, 2013 Posted February 28, 2013 Ahab: Is this a kind of a word game where “God is Truth” means “Truth is God” – and so to worship one is to worship the other and either one is both God and Truth?I don't know that I'd call it a word "game", but yeah some of that is involved here. If God is Truth, then Truth is also God. You know algebra, right? Or don't you know what that = sign means?Sounds kinda strange to me to see you say Truth is God, though, without understanding the sense in which you mean that. If so, it is just as well to say “God is Truth,” which seems more plainly scriptural, in that all the references I’ve seen has truth coming from God, or He says things like, “I am the truth” or “The truth is in me,” but not “The truth is me” or “I am in the truth." And if so, it is not just as well to say "I worship God?"God can be described, though, and sometimes it's helpful to do that just so other people can be clear on what you mean when you say God. Not all know all of his attributes by the other names we use to refer to those attributes, so if you just go around saying everything good that you see is God, and leave it at that, they might think you mean everything you think is good is God, confusing what you think is good with what God really is. Some people consider things that are actually evil to be good, too, don't cha know. So let's make a list now of some of the other names we use to refer to God, or some of his attributes, just to make what God is more clear.Love, right. You mentioned that.Truth. Yeah, okay, I can see the sense in which God is Truth.How about Mercy. That's a good thing, and God is definitlely the epitome of mercy.And Justice. I like to keep in mind how God is merciful without robbing or demeaning justice.And then there's Grace. That's a really good one, or a really good part of what God is. (My wife is named Grace too, btw).And then there's Peace.And... well, you get the idea.Each one of those things in the list are attributes of God, or in other words, they are descriptors for what God truly is.Oh, and a person. Let's not neglect to mention that he is also a person, and a male person too. And a Father, our Father, regardless of how many other Fathers there are.Anything else you want to add to the list, or clarify? I think we're getting closer to understanding each other but I'm still not sure.
CV75 Posted March 1, 2013 Posted March 1, 2013 I don't know that I'd call it a word "game", but yeah some of that is involved here. If God is Truth, then Truth is also God. You know algebra, right?Some of what might be called a word game is involved here? Are you talking about algebraic semantics? (Description is not worship, either).Algebra is not my approach, as I pointed out very early on. I've understood you all along as well, but don't agree that "other people can be clear on what you mean." I think most people understand "I worship God."I'm off for the next 9 days, travelling, visiting, baby blessing, etc. so pardon me if I become scarce, if not able to continue this conversation at all.
Ahab Posted March 1, 2013 Posted March 1, 2013 Some of what might be called a word game is involved here? Are you talking about algebraic semantics? (Description is not worship, either).Algebra is not my approach, as I pointed out very early on. I've understood you all along as well, but don't agree that "other people can be clear on what you mean." I think most people understand "I worship God."I hear all kinds of people say that all the time, but I'm not always sure about what they mean when they say that, either.It's not just you. It's the phrase and the fact that it's not very descriptive of what they're actually doing, sometimes, especially when they're not being like the person they claim to worship. I think the word should be tossed until people show they know how to use it responsibly.I'm off for the next 9 days, travelling, visiting, baby blessing, etc. so pardon me if I become scarce, if not able to continue this conversation at all.I hope you have fun. Sounds like fun. Wish I were you in that regard.
mfbukowski Posted March 1, 2013 Posted March 1, 2013 I am.Worship is not the same as "emulate" in my universe. I try to do both. The worship part is easy- the emulate, not so much
mfbukowski Posted March 1, 2013 Posted March 1, 2013 But that exercise was only an attempt to show that while we can emulate with both faith and knowledge,emulating God is not the same thing as emulating individually identified gifts and attributes.Agreed
mfbukowski Posted March 1, 2013 Posted March 1, 2013 Ahab: Is this a kind of a word game where “God is Truth” means “Truth is God” – and so to worship one is to worship the other and either one is both God and Truth? If so, it is just as well to say “God is Truth,” which seems more plainly scriptural, in that all the references I’ve seen has truth coming from God, or He says things like, “I am the truth” or “The truth is in me,” but not “The truth is me” or “I am in the truth." And if so, it is not just as well to say "I worship God?"Exactly. I will never worship TRUTH. I don't even know what it is except a sentence that makes practical sense. Why would I worship a sentence?
Ahab Posted March 1, 2013 Posted March 1, 2013 Worship is not the same as "emulate" in my universe. I try to do both. The worship part is easy- the emulate, not so muchSome people confuse worship with praise. And some people confuse worship with going to Church meetings, as if all they need to do is go and be there to be worshipping God. As if becoming like God happens by osmosis.Yeah, I've seen the kinds of things that go on in your universe. I think we can all do better than the best you have ever seen.
mfbukowski Posted March 1, 2013 Posted March 1, 2013 Love, right. You mentioned that.Truth. Yeah, okay, I can see the sense in which God is Truth.How about Mercy. That's a good thing, and God is definitlely the epitome of mercy.And Justice. I like to keep in mind how God is merciful without robbing or demeaning justice.And then there's Grace. That's a really good one, or a really good part of what God is. (My wife is named Grace too, btw).And then there's Peace.And... well, you get the idea.Those are words. I don't emulate or worship words. The Being who embodies them? Yes- I worship God not words and descriptions that don't even exist as "things"It would be like worshiping "blue".
mfbukowski Posted March 1, 2013 Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) Yeah, I've seen the kinds of things that go on in your universe. I think we can all do better than the best you have ever seen.Sounds reportable to me- it is definitely offensive. You are on ignore Mr Super Christian love everyone! Edited March 1, 2013 by mfbukowski
Ahab Posted March 1, 2013 Posted March 1, 2013 Those are words. I don't emulate or worship words. The Being who embodies them? Yes- I worship God not words and descriptions that don't even exist as "things"It would be like worshiping "blue".Words are symbols for things that really exist. Most people realize that. You don't seem to want to.Oh well. These will probably look like only words on a page to you too.
Ahab Posted March 1, 2013 Posted March 1, 2013 Sounds reportable to me- it is definitely offensive. You are on ignore Mr Super Christian love everyone!LOL. Oh, okay. I've been told this is the last day that I should post on this board, anyway, due to other things I need to do.Stay thirsty my friend,. and may the force be with you.
mfbukowski Posted March 1, 2013 Posted March 1, 2013 Words are symbols for things that really exist. Most people realize that. You don't seem to want to.Oh well. These will probably look like only words on a page to you too.No, they are evidence of incredible hubris actually.
Ahab Posted March 1, 2013 Posted March 1, 2013 No, they are evidence of incredible hubris actually.Perhaps I should have said words are symbols that help you to read my mind.Thoughts are things that really exist, too, don't cha know.And I know, I know. I'm gone now, again. Bye bye.
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