mathonihah Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Not sure if this forum is the right place for it, but here are the links anyways:http://www.bbc.co.uk...azine-21319945#http://www.huffingto..._n_2423590.htmlhttp://www.guardian....embly-islingtonhttp://www.independe...ng-8440194.htmlhttp://www.islington...first_1_1788431http://www.huffingto..._n_2432911.htmlhttp://rationalist.o...-atheist-churchHave fun. LOL!Started the above thread with the above heading at CARM a couple of days ago, and the thread was deleted and I was suspended for three days without an explanation! Judge ye for yourselves what I could have possibly done wrong. Weird place!
Damien the Leper Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 I suppose this is a good thing for atheists to gather together in celebration of life. I would mostly be disappointed if it turned into a bash-on-religion-fest.
Ahab Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 I suppose this is a good thing for atheists to gather together in celebration of life. I would mostly be disappointed if it turned into a bash-on-religion-fest.Anything that is good is somehow, somewhat, associated with God, so if they're celebrating anything good in their lives they're actually worshipping God, even if they don't realize it. 2
mathonihah Posted February 6, 2013 Author Posted February 6, 2013 (edited) Started the above thread with the above heading at CARM a couple of days ago, and the thread was deleted and I was suspended for three days without an explanation! Judge ye for yourselves what I could have possibly done wrong. Weird place!Okay, to be fair to CARM, I have finally received an explanation. They apparently have a rule of maximum two links per post which I wasn't aware of. That broke that rule. Previously I had broken another rule, which together counts as twenty infractions, the penalty for which is three days suspension. Edited February 6, 2013 by mathonihah
mathonihah Posted February 6, 2013 Author Posted February 6, 2013 Anything that is good is somehow, somewhat, associated with God, so if they're celebrating anything good in their lives they're actually worshipping God, even if they don't realize it.Good observation. If you scroll down the first link, there is a video news clip in which some of them are interviewed; they didn't sound that evil to me. More like a case of, “Forgive them, for they know not what they do”.The bus advert I thought was also funny: “There is PROBABLY no God!” Sounds like they want to hedge their bets, because they aren't so sure after all!
teddyaware Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 (edited) Anything that is good is somehow, somewhat, associated with God, so if they're celebrating anything good in their lives they're actually worshipping God, even if they don't realize it.13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God. (Moroni 7) Edited February 6, 2013 by teddyaware 1
teddyaware Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 (edited) Anything that is good is somehow, somewhat, associated with God, so if they're celebrating anything good in their lives they're actually worshipping God, even if they don't realize it.When the atheist feels an impulse within his psyche to show compassion, empathy, mercy, kindness, goodness. love and charity, he is doing so because his is acting upon the enticings of the indwelling light of Christ that "lighteth every man that cometh into the world." And the day will come when even the hard-core atheist will come to an acute awareness that God was always with him, in him, through him, and above him -- even though while in his previously benighted state he didn't consciously realize God was nigh unto him all along."6 Unto what shall I liken these kingdoms, that ye may understand?47 Behold, all these are kingdoms, and any man who hath seen any or the least of these hath seen God moving in his majesty and power.48 I say unto you, he hath seen him; nevertheless, he who came unto his own was not comprehended.49 The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not; nevertheless,the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him.50 Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound. (D&C 88) Edited February 6, 2013 by teddyaware 1
changed Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 ... the day will come when even the hard-core atheist will come to an acute awareness that God was always with him,And Korihor put forth his hand and wrote, ... I always knew that there was a God. Alma 30:52 1
teddyaware Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 (edited) And Korihor put forth his hand and wrote, ... I always knew that there was a God. Alma 30:52Excellent! Some 45 years ago, I was one of those atheists. And now, looking back with the benifit of 20/20 spiritual hindsight upon my previous life and beliefs, I discern that even then, in my heart of hearts I always knew he there. Yea, I always knew that there was a God, even when my lips denied him, Edited February 6, 2013 by teddyaware 1
Mudcat Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Okay, to be fair to CARM, I have finally received an explanation. They apparently have a rule of maximum two links per post which I wasn't aware of. That broke that rule. Previously I had broken another rule, which together counts as twenty infractions, the penalty for which is three days suspension. Oh.. seems they have lightened up a bit on the rules.I thought the "live out your life in a pain amplifier for 5 days while listening to Amy Grant songs being covered by a Metallica tribute band" were stil in effect.Hmmm.. seems they have grown slack. 4
Hamilton Porter Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 See, I told you atheism is a religion.
cdowis Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 (edited) Is there any indication that it will receive tax support? I know in some countries you can select which denomination will receive a tax subsidy. Starting this church may be a way to allow athiests to receive their share, but I don't know the law in UK. Edited February 6, 2013 by cdowis
semlogo Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 See, I told you atheism is a religion.Does that mean that trashing atheists is now religious persecution? 1
Damien the Leper Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 See, I told you atheism is a religion.Yes, like abstinence is a sexual intimacy position.
Walden Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Being an atheist, I have some reservations about an "atheist church"; I think the "church" moniker is tongue-in-cheek, though I find the structure of the meetings described in the article as being a bit too close to religious ceremony, with hymns and sermons (though irreligious) and such. I can appreicate the desire for a sense of community among atheists, but I think that there are much better vehicles and applications for achieving this sense of community than essentially mimicing the religious ceremonies that we atheists have criticized for years.And yes, I do find the advertisement that was referred to in a previous post ("The bus advert I thought was also funny: “There is PROBABLY no God!” Sounds like they want to hedge their bets, because they aren't so sure after all!") to be rather humorous and in-your-face, though I would like to point out that all of us, believer or atheist, are all working under the "probably" connundrum. If we weren't, then we could prove whether or not god exists, which is not possible (I mean proof in a tangible sense, not a "feeling" sense). As an atheist, though I proclaim that god does not exists, I can no more prove it than you can prove to me that god does exist. All we are left with is "probably," so I don't necessarily see the atheist advertisement as conceding anything, but rather, admitting that there are no absolute answers. As an atheist, I am fine with that, as I do not project my own personal feelings regarding the god question as the end-all, be-all of truth, but rather, my own perception of truth, which is anything but absolute for anyone other than me.
bcuzbcuz Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Anything that is good is somehow, somewhat, associated with God, so if they're celebrating anything good in their lives they're actually worshipping God, even if they don't realize it.That's a tenuous stretch at best to come away from the above as a celebration of God. You'll have to do better than that.
Hamilton Porter Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 That's a tenuous stretch at best to come away from the above as a celebration of God. You'll have to do better than that.He's a Calvinist. It's OK.
Damien the Leper Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 He's a Calvinist. It's OK.Wait a second! Ahab's a Calvinist? Since when?!? That would explain a lot!
Ahab Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 ... I would like to point out that all of us, believer or atheist, are all working under the "probably" connundrum. If we weren't, then we could prove whether or not god exists, which is not possible (I mean proof in a tangible sense, not a "feeling" sense). You're looking in the wrong place(s) for the proof of God, I think. We are not God, our Father, so coming to us and asking us to show you God is missing the mark, because we are not him. We do resemble him and we have some of the same attributes he has, but instead of coming to us you should go to him for the proof that he really exists, as well as what he is like.That's how we came to know that he is, and what he is like, ya know. We're just telling you about someone we know just as we could tell you about any other person we know. You haven't seen my wife before, either, but she really exists, and if you don't my word for it that isn't my problem. As an atheist, though I proclaim that god does not exists, I can no more prove it than you can prove to me that god does exist.You can proclaim it all you want but the fact is that I know God really exists. It's not just a probably situation. I actually know him, even though you're saying he doesn't exist. Makes you look kinda silly to me. You might as well say the sun doesn't exist even though I can see it shining, or when I can't see it but I still know that it's behind some clouds in the sky, to my vision. And these days with cell phones it should be easier for you to realize someone can exist even though you may not be able to see them.All we are left with is "probably," so I don't necessarily see the atheist advertisement as conceding anything, but rather, admitting that there are no absolute answers. As an atheist, I am fine with that, as I do not project my own personal feelings regarding the god question as the end-all, be-all of truth, but rather, my own perception of truth, which is anything but absolute for anyone other than me.I wonder at what point for you it will go from probably to certainty. When someone else talks to you, and that person may be God, at what point will you be sure it is God? What would it take, I wonder. Being able to see him won't necesssarily do it, because many people saw Jesus Christ and didn't realize who they were seeing.
Ahab Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 That's a tenuous stretch at best to come away from the above as a celebration of God. You'll have to do better than that.I'm talking about even if they don't realize it is God they are celebrating.When anyone celebrates anything that is good, and I mean really good, they are celebrating something that is associated with God because God is associated with all things that are good. If you don't believe that, go ahead and try an experiment where you try to think of something that's good while trying to find some way that it's NOT associated with God. You won't be able to do it, even though you may not realize the connection, because someone else will always be able to see and understand how God is associated with that good thing.
Ahab Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Wait a second! Ahab's a Calvinist? Since when?!? That would explain a lot!Don't be so gullible. No, I'm not a Calvinist. Be careful about believing everything you read on the internet. 1
Damien the Leper Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Don't be so gullible.No, I'm not a Calvinist. Be careful about believing everything you read on the internet.I didn't believe it. I don't think you're conservative enough to be a Calvinist.
Walden Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 You're looking in the wrong place(s) for the proof of God, I think. We are not God, our Father, so coming to us and asking us to show you God is missing the mark, because we are not him. We do resemble him and we have some of the same attributes he has, but instead of coming to us you should go to him for the proof that he really exists, as well as what he is like.That's how we came to know that he is, and what he is like, ya know. We're just telling you about someone we know just as we could tell you about any other person we know. You haven't seen my wife before, either, but she really exists, and if you don't my word for it that isn't my problem.You can proclaim it all you want but the fact is that I know God really exists. It's not just a probably situation. I actually know him, even though you're saying he doesn't exist. Makes you look kinda silly to me. You might as well say the sun doesn't exist even though I can see it shining, or when I can't see it but I still know that it's behind some clouds in the sky, to my vision. And these days with cell phones it should be easier for you to realize someone can exist even though you may not be able to see them.I wonder at what point for you it will go from probably to certainty. When someone else talks to you, and that person may be God, at what point will you be sure it is God? What would it take, I wonder. Being able to see him won't necesssarily do it, because many people saw Jesus Christ and didn't realize who they were seeing."instead of coming to us you should go to him for the proof that he really exists, as well as what he is like".....I did go to him for the first 24 years of my life in the LDS religion, and then for 3 more years in various other Christian denominations, and never did receive any answer or any evidence that god actually exists, outside the confines of the mind of the believer."You haven't seen my wife before, either, but she really exists, and if you don't my word for it that isn't my problem."....Talk about a red herring. Surely I can prove that your wife exists, even if I don't take your word for it....I could review certified birth records, marriage records, etc. and perform DNA tests and/or other observable or scientific tests to determine if in fact your wife does exist. I then would not have to take your word for it, I would have my own empirical evidence of her existence."You can proclaim it all you want but the fact is that I know God really exists. It's not just a probably situation. I actually know him, even though you're saying he doesn't exist. Makes you look kinda silly to me. You might as well say the sun doesn't exist even though I can see it shining, or when I can't see it but I still know that it's behind some clouds in the sky, to my vision. And these days with cell phones it should be easier for you to realize someone can exist even though you may not be able to see them."......Well, I guess we look silly to one another then, because I find it silly that someone can say that they "know", rather than "believe" that god exists, because, "these days with cell phones it should be easier for you to realize someone can exist even though you may not be able to see them." If this is your argument for god's existence, than what is your argument against Santa's existence? I mean, if someone stated that they just "knew" that Santa existed, even though he cannot be seen or proven to exist outside the confines of one's own personal belief system, then I guess we would just have to take the Santa believer's word that he must exist, because, well, "someone can exist even though you may not be able to see them."
Ahab Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 "instead of coming to us you should go to him for the proof that he really exists, as well as what he is like".....I did go to him for the first 24 years of my life in the LDS religion, and then for 3 more years in various other Christian denominations, and never did receive any answer or any evidence that god actually exists, outside the confines of the mind of the believer.That sounds like some justification for you to not believe God exists, but that's different from thinking and stating God does not exist. I know he exists, but you don't know that he does and you think he probably doesn't.. Those are fair statements based on how I now understand you.You can look at this another way too, and you should be able to easily see that some God must actually exist. Just think of God as the word that is commonly used to refer to the most supreme kind of being in all of existence, and then you should realize that there must be some kind of being that is the most supreme kind of being from among those that exist."You haven't seen my wife before, either, but she really exists, and if you don't [take] my word for it that isn't my problem."....Talk about a red herring. Surely I can prove that your wife exists, even if I don't take your word for it....I could review certified birth records, marriage records, etc. and perform DNA tests and/or other observable or scientific tests to determine if in fact your wife does exist. I then would not have to take your word for it, I would have my own empirical evidence of her existence.You could do those things only if you had access to that evidence from or about my wife. Right now you can't prove that my wife exists. All you have for it at this point is my word for it. But I know she exists, and without having to go through all of that. And even then you still may not know it. If I were the type I could fabricate all of the type of evidence you would want to look at and all of it would be just a sham, and maybe with some good reason. People go undercover like that in some cases."You can proclaim it all you want but the fact is that I know God really exists. It's not just a probably situation. I actually know him, even though you're saying he doesn't exist. Makes you look kinda silly to me. You might as well say the sun doesn't exist even though I can see it shining, or when I can't see it but I still know that it's behind some clouds in the sky, to my vision. And these days with cell phones it should be easier for you to realize someone can exist even though you may not be able to see them."......Well, I guess we look silly to one another then, because I find it silly that someone can say that they "know", rather than "believe" that god exists, because, "these days with cell phones it should be easier for you to realize someone can exist even though you may not be able to see them." If this is your argument for god's existence, than what is your argument against Santa's existence? I mean, if someone stated that they just "knew" that Santa existed, even though he cannot be seen or proven to exist outside the confines of one's own personal belief system, then I guess we would just have to take the Santa believer's word that he must exist, because, well, "someone can exist even though you may not be able to see them."No, I wouldn't have to take their word for it, just as you don't have to take my word for what I am saying about my own wife. You could remain ignorant about it forever and ever but the fact would remain that I still know that my wife does exist, just as I know God exists. It's just matter of knowing a person, and God is simply another person who anyone can get to know.Just don't run around saying God doesn't exist, because that will only make you look foolish to those who know that he does.
Walden Posted February 6, 2013 Posted February 6, 2013 Just don't run around saying God doesn't exist, because that will only make you look foolish to those who know that he does.How is this sentiment any different than a Scientologist stating, "Just don't run around saying that Xenu doesn't exist, because that will only make you look foolish to those who know that he does."Or for that matter, a member of the Flat Earth Society stating, "Just don't run around saying that the earth is a sphere, because that will only make you look foolish to those who know that it is flat."I think that we are meeting an obstacle in understanding one another because of our differing views of "belief" versus "fact"; you continue to argue that it is a fact that god exists, while I am arguing that I do not believe that god exists. I am certainly open to the possibility that I could be wrong regarding my views of god, but it is definitely hard to have a discussion with someone who cannot fathom that their view could possibly be incorrect, particularly when it comes to such an unprovable tenet as gods existence.Essentially, we are left with your argument that it is a fact that god exists, and anyone else who doesn't believe as you do is just plain wrong.Meanwhile, I will continue to argue that I do not believe that god exists, but I am open to the possibility that I do not have the market cornered when it comes to absolute truths, and that I could be wrong, and that my truth is not everyone's truth.
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