canard78 Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 One might find it that way if one was to lazy to study history and failed to understand . He who fails to understand history is doomed to repeat it.You're quite right. I have done little to study the American gun problem. It saddens me, it bemuses me. But it's not enough of a personal concern for me to invest the hours of study to fully understand it. It's not laziness. It's being selective.Given I've no knowledge I probably shouldn't comment on this thread any further so I'll duck out and leave you to it.
teddyaware Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) Our last defense against tyranny is a military unwilling to oppress its own people. Luckily we, for the most part, have that. Joe Schmoe with his rifle is not going to hold off tyranny. Every generation since the beginning of the LDS faith has had prophets of doom forecasting the collapse of everything. One generation is bound to be right but I see no special reason ours should be it.If the US military is ever commanded by the "Commander in Chief" to clamp down on the American people by threat of violence, they will be much more reluctant to carry out those orders if they know the people are well armed, for two reasons:1. The soldiers will know their lives will be in grave danger if they carry out the order, further disincentivizing them to fight agaist their own countrymen.2. The soldiers will be much more likely to defect over to the side of the citizenry and join forces with them if they know the citizens akready have amassed significant fire-power.As to your second statement, read the following:words of wisdom from a General Conference address by Ezra Taft Benson:"We encourage you to be more self-reliant so that, as the Lord has declared, 'notwithstanding the tribulation which shall descend upon you, … the church may stand independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world' (D&C 78:14). The Lord wants us to be independent and self-reliant because these will be days of tribulation. He has warned and forewarned us of the eventuality." (October 1980 General Conference)And again:"Too often we bask in our comfortable complacency and rationalize that the ravages of war, economic disaster, famine, and earthquake cannot happen here. Those who believe this are either not acquainted with the revelations of the Lord, or they do not believe them. Those who smugly think these calamities will not happen, that they somehow will be set aside because of the righteousness of the Saints, are deceived and will rue the day they harbored such a delusion." (October 1980 General Conference)One of the strangest things for me to contemplate as a Latter Day Saint is the following: We LDS all know, according to more than abundant prophecy, that this present world is going to end violently and horrifically. A sad and lamentable repeat of history, if you will, We have all been taught that as it had been for the Nephites in their day, just before the Saviour appeared to to them, so will it be with the people of the world in these last days.The Nephite's world was ripening in iniquity; disharmony and strife within in the Church were rampant; secret combinations (the greatest of all forms of wickedness in the sight of God) abounded; ruthless and lawless Gadianton robbers filled the judgement seats; the people eventually got used to corrupt government and just "went with the flow," as they say; the Nephite's wonderful system of governmental freedom by law, not by men, had been torn to shreds by corrupt, usurping schemers; sexual immorality and a callous disregard for the sacredness of human life ruled the day; the majority of the people mocked and disbelieved the prophets of God who warned them that they were ripening in iniquity and that the fiery, cataclysmic judgements of an offended God awaited them.It's always been this way, and I guess it always will -- even with many of the Latter Day Saints, I suppose. Haven't we been taught that the parable of the wise and foolish virgins testifies concerning the members of the Lord's own Church? Edited January 13, 2013 by teddyaware 2
Sky Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 If the US military is ever commanded by the "Commander in Chief" to clamp down on the American people by threat of violence, they will be much more reluctant to carry out those orders if they know the people are well armed, for two reasons:1. The soldiers will know their lives will be in grave danger if they carry out the order, further disincentivizing them to fight agaist their own countrymen.2. The soldiers will be much more likely to defect over to the side of the citizenry and join forces with them if they know the citizens akready have amassed significant fire-power.As to your second statement, read the following:words of wisdom from a General Conference address by Ezra Taft Benson:"We encourage you to be more self-reliant so that, as the Lord has declared, 'notwithstanding the tribulation which shall descend upon you, … the church may stand independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world' (D&C 78:14). The Lord wants us to be independent and self-reliant because these will be days of tribulation. He has warned and forewarned us of the eventuality." (October 1980 General Conference)And again:"Too often we bask in our comfortable complacency and rationalize that the ravages of war, economic disaster, famine, and earthquake cannot happen here. Those who believe this are either not acquainted with the revelations of the Lord, or they do not believe them. Those who smugly think these calamities will not happen, that they somehow will be set aside because of the righteousness of the Saints, are deceived and will rue the day they harbored such a delusion." (October 1980 General Conference)One of the strangest things for me to contemplate as a Latter Day Saint is the following: We LDS all know, according to more than abundant prophecy, that this present world is going to end violently and horrifically. A sad and lamentable repeat of history, if you will, We have all been taught that as it had been for the Nephites in their day, just before the Saviour appeared to to them, so will it be with the people of the world in these last days.The Nephite's world was ripening in iniquity; disharmony and strife within in the Church were rampant; secret combinations (the greatest of all forms of wickedness in the sight of God) abounded; ruthless and lawless Gadianton robbers filled the judgement seats; the people eventually got used to corrupt government and just "went with the flow," as they say; the Nephite's wonderful system of governmental freedom by law, not by men, had been torn to shreds by corrupt, usurping schemers; sexual immorality and a callous disregard for the sacredness of human life ruled the day; the majority of the people mocked and disbelieved the prophets of God who warned them that they were ripening in iniquity and that the fiery, cataclysmic judgements of an offended God awaited them.It's always been this way, and I guess it always will -- even with many of the Latter Day Saints, I suppose. Haven't we been taught that the parable of the wise and foolish virgins testifies concerning the members of the Lord's own Church?So, according to you, advocating for stronger gun control laws now means that I'm something less than a worthy member of the Church or Latter-day Saint? Or that I don't understand the revelations and am like unto a foolish virgin? Or that God is somehow offended by my good intentions, and will punish me with the fires of hell? You are making a awfully lot of sweeping judgements here. And I've given my life to this Church; I fully support the Brethren. But last time I checked, the Brethren have not taken a stance on this issue. So, I'm free to do my own research and form my own conclusions. And if I wanted to, I could also find a scripture or conference talk that supports my viewpoint. I think 2 Timothy 1: 6-7 sums up how I feel pretty well:For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Even when he is pointing the gun at me it is not too late. What evidence do you have that I am so incompetent with firearms that I am the one more likely to kill my family members than the "bad guy".Yes it is, and here is your proof.http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022184093
ERayR Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 So, according to you, advocating for stronger gun control laws now means that I'm something less than a worthy member of the Church or Latter-day Saint? Or that I don't understand the revelations and am like unto a foolish virgin? Or that God is somehow offended by my good intentions, and will punish me with the fires of hell? You are making a awfully lot of sweeping judgements here. And I've given my life to this Church; I fully support the Brethren. But last time I checked, the Brethren have not taken a stance on this issue. So, I'm free to do my own research and form my own conclusions. And if I wanted to, I could also find a scripture or conference talk that supports my viewpoint. I think 2 Timothy 1: 6-7 sums up how I feel pretty well:For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.I would say more like you don't understand how things really work. There is a reason one studies history. There is a reason God instructed Nephi to keep a record and there is a reason he sent them back for the brass plates. As my Grandpa used to say: Idealism is great but it doesn't plow the tater patch.
thesometimesaint Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 First, this post was in response to post 32 by Sky. I am not sure that your oaths are apropo. If we don't make laws for those that would obey them, why the call for more laws to burden those that do obey them if we don't expect obedience?If all men were angels no government would be necessary.If all men were devils no government would be possible.
Sky Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 I would say more like you don't understand how things really work. There is a reason one studies history. There is a reason God instructed Nephi to keep a record and there is a reason he sent them back for the brass plates. As my Grandpa used to say: Idealism is great but it doesn't plow the tater patch.I've given sources to back up my position on this; I'm not ignorant.
thesometimesaint Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 If that is the case we need to amend the constitution, not create unconstitutional gun laws. "the right to bear arms shall not be infringed" doesn't say you can pick and choose which guns I can own, it say my right to bear arms shall not be infringed.Since we are talking about research... CFR that there is a correlation between the number of legally owned guns and the number of mass shootings.that is completely irrelevant.You seem to have forgotten the "A regulated militia" part.False equivalency. More cars the more likely the more mass pileups.
ERayR Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Yes it is, and here is your proof.http://www.democrati...com/10022184093http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/detroit/police:-pizza-delivery-man-fights-back-after-being-ambushed,-kills-robberhttp://blogs.sacbee.com/crime/archives/2011/02/would-be-robber.htmlhttp://www.indystar.com/article/20110201/LOCAL1802/102010352http://www.americanrifleman.org/BlogList.aspx?cid=25&id=21I could go on and on and on but this is enough to show you that you are wrong. Just because an armed intruder has a gun pointed at you doesn't mean it is too late.
ERayR Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 If all men were angels no government would be necessary.If all men were devils no government would be possible.You are dodging my question.
thesometimesaint Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Show conclusively that the guns are the problem and then we will have something to talk about. These "senseless, evil acts" will happen with or without guns. Rocks, hand tools or even a little specially mixed fertilizer have been used to commit these "senseless, evil acts".One man with a pile of rocks may be able to kill perhaps 2-3 people before being stopped. One man with an assault rifle 20 kids and 6 adults killed before he killed himself. 1
ERayR Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 I've given sources to back up my position on this; I'm not ignorant.Idealism is fine as long as you have someone armed and willing to protect your right to be so.
ERayR Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) One man with a pile of rocks may be able to kill perhaps 2-3 people before being stopped. One man with an assault rifle 20 kids and 6 adults killed before he killed himself.One man with a fertilizer bomb kills how many? 168 Oklahoma City.PS there is already laws on the books to cover those shootings. The laws didn't do a thing to stop it. In fact it hindered. No law abiding armed citizen to stop it. See:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/12/san-diego-theater-shooting_n_2464804.html Edited January 13, 2013 by ERayR
Nevo Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 I knew there were a lot of gun nuts in the US but I find it disquieting that so many of the professed Saints on this board put so much trust in the "arm of the flesh." It seems to me that a citizenry armed to the teeth with handguns and assault rifles, determined to violently oppose their own government if they feel it overreaches its authority, will produce not a harmonious free society but an ungovernable one composed of (literally) warring factions. Think sub-Saharan Africa or Afghanistan. But to each their own. I'm just glad I don't have to deal with this madness in my country. 2
ERayR Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 I knew there were a lot of gun nuts in the US but I find it disquieting that so many of the professed Saints on this board put so much trust in the "arm of the flesh." It seems to me that a citizenry armed to the teeth with handguns and assault rifles, determined to violently oppose their own government if they feel it overreaches its authority, will produce not a harmonious free society but an ungovernable one composed of (literally) warring factions. Think sub-Saharan Africa or Afghanistan. But to each their own. I'm just glad I don't have to deal with this madness in my country.It seems to me that once there is no armed citizenry the next thing to go is your right to free exercise of your religion. Plenty of examples. Read history. Several less than 50 years ago. 2
thesometimesaint Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 If the US military is ever commanded by the "Commander in Chief" to clamp down on the American people by threat of violence, they will be much more reluctant to carry out those orders if they know the people are well armed, for two reasons:1. The soldiers will know their lives will be in grave danger if they carry out the order, further disincentivizing them to fight agaist their own countrymen.2. The soldiers will be much more likely to defect over to the side of the citizenry and join forces with them if they know the citizens akready have amassed significant fire-power.As to your second statement, read the following:words of wisdom from a General Conference address by Ezra Taft Benson:"We encourage you to be more self-reliant so that, as the Lord has declared, 'notwithstanding the tribulation which shall descend upon you, … the church may stand independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world' (D&C 78:14). The Lord wants us to be independent and self-reliant because these will be days of tribulation. He has warned and forewarned us of the eventuality." (October 1980 General Conference)And again:"Too often we bask in our comfortable complacency and rationalize that the ravages of war, economic disaster, famine, and earthquake cannot happen here. Those who believe this are either not acquainted with the revelations of the Lord, or they do not believe them. Those who smugly think these calamities will not happen, that they somehow will be set aside because of the righteousness of the Saints, are deceived and will rue the day they harbored such a delusion." (October 1980 General Conference)One of the strangest things for me to contemplate as a Latter Day Saint is the following: We LDS all know, according to more than abundant prophecy, that this present world is going to end violently and horrifically. A sad and lamentable repeat of history, if you will, We have all been taught that as it had been for the Nephites in their day, just before the Saviour appeared to to them, so will it be with the people of the world in these last days.The Nephite's world was ripening in iniquity; disharmony and strife within in the Church were rampant; secret combinations (the greatest of all forms of wickedness in the sight of God) abounded; ruthless and lawless Gadianton robbers filled the judgement seats; the people eventually got used to corrupt government and just "went with the flow," as they say; the Nephite's wonderful system of governmental freedom by law, not by men, had been torn to shreds by corrupt, usurping schemers; sexual immorality and a callous disregard for the sacredness of human life ruled the day; the majority of the people mocked and disbelieved the prophets of God who warned them that they were ripening in iniquity and that the fiery, cataclysmic judgements of an offended God awaited them.It's always been this way, and I guess it always will -- even with many of the Latter Day Saints, I suppose. Haven't we been taught that the parable of the wise and foolish virgins testifies concerning the members of the Lord's own Church?The US Civil War alone proves how wrong those first two assumption are.Tribulation does come in many forms. Tell me are the victims of Hurricane Sandy not in tribulation? Fat lot of good a gun is against a hurricane.
thesometimesaint Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) One man with a fertilizer bomb kills how many? 168 Oklahoma City.PS there is already laws on the books to cover those shootings. The laws didn't do a thing to stop it. In fact it hindered. No law abiding armed citizen to stop it. See:http://www.huffingto..._n_2464804.htmlAll the guns on a military base didn't stop the Fort Hood shooter. There were armed guards at Columbine, and Virginia Tech. Didn't stop a one of those. Edited January 13, 2013 by thesometimesaint 1
Garden Girl Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Hello TSS...Did you miss my post #100 where I gave you a CFR...Sometimes you bloviate but this time I would like your source because I don't think your statement is correct...from the beach on a frosty, crisp morning... have a good Sabbath... GG
Nevo Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) It seems to me that once there is no armed citizenry the next thing to go is your right to free exercise of your religion. Plenty of examples. Read history. Several less than 50 years ago.Hmm. I wonder if the ancient Israelites could have avoided the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities if they'd just been better armed or had more robust military alliances with powerful neighbors. Isaiah didn't see it that way but maybe he had it all backwards.James Madison wrote that Christianity “disavows a dependence on the powers of this world...for it is known that this Religion both existed and flourished, not only without the support of human laws, but in spite of every opposition from them." But maybe he was wrong too. Edited January 13, 2013 by Nevo 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Hello TSS...Did you miss my post #100 where I gave you a CFR...Sometimes you bloviate but this time I would like your source because I don't think your statement is correct...from the beach on a frosty, crisp morning... have a good Sabbath... GGSorry GG I had completely forgotten about your CFR. Here is my source.http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/160/10/929.full
Garden Girl Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 Sorry GG I had completely forgotten about your CFR. Here is my source.http://aje.oxfordjou...160/10/929.fullThank you TSS... but as I suspected, your statement is a tad misleading... i.e., that a person with a gun in the home is more likely to shoot a family member than the bad guy. That makes it sound like an accidental shooting of a family member vs the bad guy. Your source was regarding murder and suicide. And since I firmly believe that if one is tutored on proper gun safety and how to use a weapon, including when cleaning, the possibility of accidental shootings in the home are greatly reduced. And as far as murder/suicide, the report may be correct, but I'd be interested in other means of murder/suicide because many are blunt object or pills/hanging/jumping etc...GG
Saints Alive Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 You seem to have forgotten the "A regulated militia" part.No I did not, what were militias in the founders time? They were groups of private citizens, farmers, merchants, tradesmen, ect. using their provately owned guns (illegally owned at one point) to defend their rights. The argument that the "a well regulated militia" part only pertains to state national guards and standing armies is patently false and exactly opposite of what the founding fathers intended False equivalency. More cars the more likely the more mass pileups.I will issue my CFR one last time and then I will report you... Show me where and increase in gun ownership has led to more violence, or conversely where gun bans have decreases violent crimes.
Saints Alive Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 It seems to me that a citizenry armed to the teeth with handguns and assault rifles, determined to violently oppose their own government if they feel it overreaches its authority, will produce not a harmonious free society but an ungovernable one composed of (literally) warring factions. Think sub-Saharan Africa or Afghanistan. But to each their own. I'm just glad I don't have to deal with this madness in my country.And yet this hasn't happened in the US. The assault weapons ban has been over for 10 years and yet there have been no armed revelutions or uprisings even though almost every citizen can legally own those weapons. "It seems" that you are way off base. You also should refrain from questioning the faithfulness of Saints who believe in gun rights as I believe questioning the faithfulness of other members is against the board rules.
thesometimesaint Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 GG:As I've said before I'm neither Pro-gun nut nor an Anti-gun nut. However I am against the nut behind the trigger. I still own a gun, a big one. I carried it for a decade. It is registered in my name and address, and I know and follow all the gun safety laws, rules, and procedures. I keep it under lock and key at all times when I'm not using it. But I'm no fool. They are dangerous deadly tools, and in the hands of the determined and/or demented even more so.Instruments of war have no business in the hands of civilians. No civilian needs to have a 30 round clip, let alone a 100 round one. If they are that bad of a shot. I don't want to be anywhere within a couple of miles of them. I'm not here to take any sportsman/hunter/target practice fans' gun away. Have fun and safe shooting.Proper training is essential, but that is no talisman against gun accidents. The most common form of accident is pointing at the wrong target. Followed by gun cleaning accidents, like not know for sure that there isn't a round in the firing chamber.The statistics are easy to understand and horrible in their reality. More guns don't make us safer, and in the wrong hands horrible events happen. Of course guns aren't the only way to kill. They just make the attempts more successful. Women are more likely to attempt suicide, while men are more successful. Primarily because of guns in the household. 1
Nathair/|\ Posted January 13, 2013 Posted January 13, 2013 It seems to me that once there is no armed citizenry the next thing to go is your right to free exercise of your religion. Plenty of examples. Read history. Several less than 50 years ago.At least one in Texas less than one score years ago where children were burned to death by the federal government for their religion.
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