Gun Rights / Gun Control And The Church'S View.

[Duncan]

Faulty logic. The guns do not commit, they do not advocate, they do not entice violence. It is the mind that instigates and begets violence. What was it that

Cain used to kill

Abel? Was it a rock or some farming tool?

yeah but where is Cain now? no where I would want to be

[ERayR]

I am not laughing except at the NRA. They need good mental health services to defuse the motivation!!!! Certaint;y the US needs to calm down on the gun and violence culture. I don't know how often nuts with bomb making experience commit acts of violence in the US beyond, meth labs that explode, the Unabomber, Oklahoma City and obviously 9/11. But doesn't the US have strict laws for bomb making ingredients? like you can't get bomb making stuff ( I hope) at Wal-Mart or the gas station

I hope that the US passes laws banning all military style weapons, no one needs them neyond law enforcement and the military. We will always have the deranged and poor among us and it's obviously a complicated issue

The violence perpetrated against school children was done in the 1920's with dynamite.

[Calm]

I am guessing that most of these guns are of the assault variety.

You think there are more assault guns than handguns and hunting rifles out there?

I would be quite surprised. Everyone I know in Utah who owns guns own hunting rifles and a handgun (usually meant to finish off game that is brought down but not killed by a rifleshot).

[treeface]

The DIstrict of Columbia has by far the highest firearms murder rate in the US, along with the most restrictive gun control laws (or close to it - I haven't kept up with new gun laws).

The US had 8,583 gun homicides in 2011. If the trends follow past years, roughly 6% are good guys shooting bad guys (justifiable homicide), and about 1% are cops shooting bad guys.

If trends hold, there were a little under 500 accidental gun deaths in 2011 (your swimming pool is more likely to kill you accidentally than your gun is).

And if the trends hold, probably about 11,000 gun suicides in 2011.

The US had 32,367 deaths in traffic accidents in 2011.

Edited December 23, 2012 by treeface

[bdouglas]

You think there are more assault guns than handguns and hunting rifles out there?

I would be quite surprised. Everyone I know in Utah who owns guns own hunting rifles and a handgun (usually meant to finish off game that is brought down but not killed by a rifleshot).

It is estimated that of the total number of guns, 100 mil are handguns. You can go to the following website if you want more details:

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

[Duncan]

The violence perpetrated against school children was done in the 1920's with dynamite.

well, get rid of that too from nuts then! you should only use that stuff for industrial purposes, but it's the culture too the US needs to look at the glorifying violence aspect of it

[Calm]

I think the Church's position should be Love thy neighbour

Part of loving your neighbour could be preventing him or her from harming another that he might regret in the eternities...and I am not just talking about those who shot others accidentally or through self defense, but those who for whatever reason think a gun is going to solve their problems or make them famous or whatever and takes his gun out to harm unsuspecting people.

[blackstrap]

To be clear, where I live we don't much lock up the house or the cars. There are probably quite a few guns in town but they are mostly used by hunters during the various seasons. Were I to live in East LA or some parts of Florida or Detroit,I likely would have bars on the windows and the odd gun. It is much nicer to live in a community where one feels safe 99% of the time. Would that we could all live under such circumstances.Unfortunately we don't, so I can't see banning all guns as useful or even wise.Now if we could just change society so that we all loved one another then....

[Calm]

It is estimated that of the total number of guns, 100 mil are handguns. You can go to the following website if you want more details:

http://www.justfacts.../guncontrol.asp

How are you defining assault guns and what are their numbers?

[ERayR]

yeah but where is Cain now? no where I would want to be

You are avoiding the obvious. It wasn't the rock or farm tools that were to blame for Cains act it was his frame of mind. The point you are ignoring is that when you go after the rock, or the farm tools, or the gun you are being diverted from the real cause. Eliminate the real cause and you could leave guns and ammo piled in the streets and there would be no problem. If you don't get at the real cause then you can confiscate all the guns, all the rocks, all the farm tools etc and there will still be killings.

[Calm]

I hope that the US passes laws banning all military style weapons, no one needs them neyond law enforcement and the military.

I would be all for that myself.

[Duncan]

To be clear, where I live we don't much lock up the house or the cars. There are probably quite a few guns in town but they are mostly used by hunters during the various seasons. Were I to live in East LA or some parts of Florida or Detroit,I likely would have bars on the windows and the odd gun. It is much nicer to live in a community where one feels safe 99% of the time. Would that we could all live under such circumstances.Unfortunately we don't, so I can't see banning all guns as useful or even wise.Now if we could just change society so that we all loved one another then....

out there the big causes of death I would imagine would be farm accidents, automobile deaths and upset wives and/or girlfriends...

[Duncan]

You are avoiding the obvious. It wasn't the rock or farm tools that were to blame for Cains act it was his frame of mind. The point you are ignoring is that when you go after the rock, or the farm tools, or the gun you are being diverted from the real cause. Eliminate the real cause and you could leave guns and ammo piled in the streets and there would be no problem. If you don't get at the real cause then you can confiscate all the guns, all the rocks, all the farm tools etc and there will still be killings.

true but why have them then? how much money is spent making weapons and better ways of killing people and that could be better spent i'm sure

[ERayR]

D&C 45: 66-71 says:

I am guessing that most of these guns are of the assault variety.

You would guess wrong. In reality very few are assault rifles. In fact true assault rifles are illegal. What you are calling assault rifles are semi-automatic rifles made to look like assault rifle but without the assault rifle capabilities.

[bdouglas]

The Bushmaster assault rifle that Lanza carried into the school in CT sprays 180 rounds per minute. It was designed after it was learned that soldiers in combat usually did not take aim before shooting but rather just pointed in a general direction.

[bdouglas]

Lanza's mother, a longtime gun enthusiast and law-abiding citizen acquired the gun (the Bushmaster her son used) legally, without much hassle. I lived in Las Vegas for a few years, and you could get any kind of assault rifle you wanted, at a pawn shop or otherwise.

[bdouglas]

You would guess wrong. In reality very few are assault rifles. In fact true assault rifles are illegal. What you are calling assault rifles are semi-automatic rifles made to look like assault rifle but without the assault rifle capabilities.

CFR please. I said "I guessed most are assault rifles". I don't really know and so I said "I guess". You said, "You would guess wrong", sounding as if you positively know and so I am asking for a reference.

[ERayR]

true but why have them then? how much money is spent making weapons and better ways of killing people and that could be better spent i'm sure

As I have said before some of us hunt wild game and some of us like to go to the shooting range and improve our skills by shooting targets and "plinking" cans. It can be a pleasant afternoon with kids and grand kids.

And finally what gives you and others of like mind the right to tell us how we who enjoy the shooting sports how we are to spend our money. I pay my tithing, fast offerings, provide food, pay house payment and utilities so what is wrong with me shooting with my family. I can't ski or play basketball. No matter how much I like football one can only watch so much.

[Sky]

Statistically cars kill far more people than guns, maybe we should ban cars?

But cars weren't designed specifically to exterminate as many people as possible, in as little time as possible. And you need a license to operate a vehicle - and registration to own one.

Seriously, how many more mass murders in this country is it going to take before we enact some common-sense and much needed gun control laws? A background check on all gun owners or potential gun owners at the minimum. Too many innocent people have died to not do anything - all supposedly in the name of the second amendment. We can't stop all mass murders from happening, but we can certainly slow them down and make it harder for people to get guns.

[bdouglas]

I grew up with BB guns and hunting rifles, and by the time I was 12 I had my own .22 rifle. I shot quail, sitting doves and that kind of thing for a while, and then had an experience where I brought down a bigger animal and had to pump several rounds into it to kill it before I swore off guns. Today I own a shotgun, and I occasionally go out dove or pheasant hunting with family members. But I rarely bag anything--I don't try very hard.

Guns are so deeply embedded in the American psyche...I think it is hard for non-Americans to understand how deeply embedded they are. They are never going away, not only guns used for hunting but assault weapons whose sole purpose is to kill people. No matter what the gov't does or does not do, in the U.S. guns are here to stay.

[Duncan]

As I have said before some of us hunt wild game and some of us like to go to the shooting range and improve our skills by shooting targets and "plinking" cans. It can be a pleasant afternoon with kids and grand kids.

And finally what gives you and others of like mind the right to tell us how we who enjoy the shooting sports how we are to spend our money. I pay my tithing, fast offerings, provide food, pay house payment and utilities so what is wrong with me shooting with my family. I can't ski or play basketball. No matter how much I like football one can only watch so much.

I can't and won't tell you how to live your life but by the same token I don't participate in those activities and it makes me no nevermind to those who do. What I do have a problem with is the massacres that keep happening in your country and people don't seem to care enough to do something about it

[blackstrap]

Semi auto fires everytime you pull the trigger. Technically an assault rifle is capable of full auto and will fire as long as you hold down the trigger and you have ammo. Neither one is all that great as a hunting rifle unless you want to spend a lot on bullets.

It has yet to be ascertained if the gun Lanza used was locked up properly.He did shoot his mother first and while she was sleeping so he gained access to the firearm because of her negligence or without her knowledge. It is becoming more obvious that she was very unwise to keep weapons in the home with a disturbed son.

[Calm]

But cars weren't designed specifically to exterminate as many people as possible, in as little time as possible.

Neither are a significant portion of guns.

[Calm]

I can't and won't tell you how to live your life but by the same token I don't participate in those activities and it makes me no nevermind to those who do. What I do have a problem with is the massacres that keep happening in your country and people don't seem to care enough to do something about it

I think it is unfair to claim that someone doesn't care simply because they don't agree with a particular solution, especially when they don't agree because they don't think that solution is workable.

[treeface]

The Bushmaster assault rifle that Lanza carried into the school in CT sprays 180 rounds per minute. It was designed after it was learned that soldiers in combat usually did not take aim before shooting but rather just pointed in a general direction.

If this is true, then it was fully automatic (probably 3-round burst mode from your description) and was already illegal for civilian ownership without a Class 3 license.

Seriously, how many more mass murders in this country is it going to take before we enact some common-sense and much needed gun control laws? A background check on all gun owners or potential gun owners at the minimum.

The laws that are on the books already would prevent all gun crimes if laws worked on criminals. Let's enforce the laws we've got first, instead of rushing to pass one more law that will only impact law-abiding citizens.

According to a report I heard on National Public Radio several years ago, on the average, the person murdered has a longer criminal record than the person who murdered them. In other words in the US, most murders are one bad guy killing another, arguably even worse bad guy.

And as to who would want a military-style rifle, when I was a kid my mother, little brother, and I were besieged by a gang on motorcycles. As I recall there were seventeen motorcycles, two with an extra rider, so that made nineteen men. Against a woman, an eleven-year-old, a six-year-old, and two dogs. We had two shotguns and a pistol. In the end no shots were fired and one was hurt, as evidently they didn't want to pay the price we could theoretically have extracted. But we'd have lost the fight for sure if they'd been determined. A military-style rifle in my mother's capable hands would have considerably evened the odds. A similar situation a couple of years earlier (and about thirty miles away) resulted in the death of all members of a family at the hands of a similar gang. Far as I know that family was unarmed; none of the assailants were shot at any rate. Yes that was right here in the good ol' US of A, in the 1970's.

Edited December 23, 2012 by treeface