Missing Scroll: How To Get To An Accurate Measure?

[USU78]

There has been a fair bit written hereabouts about the Missing Scroll hypothesis; i.e., that since testimony of witnesses reports the existence of far more than was purchased by the Church back in 1967, the Book of Abraham's text could well have been preserved on the now missing portions of the scrolls [note plural] purchased by JSJr.

There is no reason to base LDS claims to the BoA's scriptural and historical usefulness upon this theory, but ruling out one more weapon used by the boobirds to beat JSJr and the Church up with is always useful and worth doing.

Now, if we have papyrus rolled tightly into a roll, and the roll being sealed in bitumen or wax, is it possible to get an accurate measurement of the length of the roll from the preserved fragments?

What is your opinion on the subject, and how would you go about doing it?

[shalamabobbi]

This has been gone over before. If you know the thickness of the material and the outside diameter you can constrain the maximum length of the scroll, yes. It might be shorter but it couldn't be any longer. It is simply an application of math.

The diameter was surmised from lining up repeating features of the scroll.

A missing scroll is certainly handy and I tend to agree with this idea based upon the Lucy's account.

ETA: Did you mean is there a way to determine the length of a missing scroll? If so, no, since it is missing. But the same description, if judged sufficient for acceptance of the missing scroll idea to begin with, offers clues as to the approximate length.

Edited September 6, 2012 by shalamabobbi

[William Schryver]

This has been gone over before. If you know the thickness of the material and the outside diameter you can constrain the maximum length of the scroll, yes. It might be shorter but it couldn't be any longer. It is simply an application of math.

The diameter was surmised from lining up repeating features of the scroll.

A missing scroll is certainly handy and I tend to agree with this idea based upon the Lucy's account.

ETA: Did you mean is there a way to determine the length of a missing scroll? If so, no, since it is missing. But the same description, if judged sufficient for acceptance of the missing scroll idea to begin with, offers clues as to the approximate length.

We know the average thickness of the scroll in question (the scroll of Hor): 168 microns. We also know the length of the outermost winding of the scroll (~10.5 cm). In fact, I am convinced that we have accurate measurements of the first three windings of the scroll. But do the math based only on the average thickness {168 microns) and the agreed upon outer circumference (10.5 cm). What is your result?

[MormonMason]

People should also be aware that there are several centimeters of papyrus missing from the front of the Horos scroll. In the copies of the Books of Breathing I have observed that are intact, they have several centimeters of blank papyrus marked off by lines to protect the underlying writing and vignettes. One of the best examples of this can be seen in the Ker'asher Papyrus (one of the longest on record). Another example can be seen in the shorter version of Her-Nuty. I attempt to show that of Her-Nuty here:

[William Schryver]

People should also be aware that there are several centimeters of papyrus missing from the front of the Horos scroll.

This is possible, but it is not really significant. The real issue is how much scroll came after the fragment known as JSP I.

Has anyone performed the math yet, based on the measurements I provided, that will provide us with a fairly reliable "upper bound"?

Edited September 6, 2012 by William Schryver

[USU78]

I seem to remember from my college days that Archimedes came up with such a formula . . . is that correct?

[CA Steve]

How do you account for how tightly or loosely the scroll was originally wound, or if the thickness of the papyri has changed over time as it ages? Could you take the existing winding measurements and plot out the missing (inner) windings by averaging the reduction in circumference from one winding to the next?

[wenglund]

We know the average thickness of the scroll in question (the scroll of Hor): 168 microns. We also know the length of the outermost winding of the scroll (~10.5 cm). In fact, I am convinced that we have accurate measurements of the first three windings of the scroll. But do the math based only on the average thickness (168 microns) and the agreed upon outer circumference (10.5 cm). What is your result?

Using the formula (3.14*R*(D+d)/2), my results round out to: 483 centimeters or 16 feet.

Here is a link to a previous thread where this was discussed at length:

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[shalamabobbi]

We know the average thickness of the scroll in question (the scroll of Hor): 168 microns. We also know the length of the outermost winding of the scroll (~10.5 cm). In fact, I am convinced that we have accurate measurements of the first three windings of the scroll. But do the math based only on the average thickness {168 microns) and the agreed upon outer circumference (10.5 cm). What is your result?

Thickness = 168 microns

Outer Circumference = 10.5cm

5.2m max

with an inner core circumference of 3 cm

4.8m

http://www.handymath.com/cgi-bin/rollen.cgi

Keep in mind that this is a very idealistic roll without air gaps between windings etc.

You can add whatever air gap between windings that you want to the material thickness to see how that changes the results. Basically doubling the thickness cuts the length in half, etc.

[shalamabobbi]

... or if the thickness of the papyri has changed over time as it ages?

If we can trust wikipedia on this one, papyrus is only about 7% water and it would likely be the case that the material was dried before use. Removing the material from a dry environment like Egypt to a more humid environment would result in the absorption of water and if anything make the papyrus thicker than it was previously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus

[CA Steve]

If we can trust wikipedia on this one, papyrus is only about 7% water and it would likely be the case that the material was dried before use. Removing the material from a dry environment like Egypt to a more humid environment would result in the absorption of water and if anything make the papyrus thicker than it was previously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus

It would be interesting to see what differences there are in length calculations that rely on thicknesses and maximum OD versus one that was based on the difference in winding lengths. I wonder if Will would provide the measurements of the first three windings of the scroll?

[shalamabobbi]

It would be interesting to see what differences there are in length calculations that rely on thicknesses and maximum OD versus one that was based on the difference in winding lengths. I wonder if Will would provide the measurements of the first three windings of the scroll?

Good point.

Since the circumference of the first winding is 10.5cm we can use the formula in reverse so to speak to calculate the effective thickness if we have the actual length of the succeeding circumference. Likewise with the third.

The only gotcha I can see in this is whether the repeating patterns represent the original wound scroll or whether it represents damage to a re-wound scroll and how you could tell the difference.

[DavidB]

I seem to remember from my college days that Archimedes came up with such a formula . . . is that

There is a formula and here is a quick reference chart with a 76mm core.

While the formula gives total lenght.

Edited September 6, 2012 by DavidB

[USU78]

There is a formula and here is a quick reference chart with a 76mm core.

While the formula gives total lenght.

Mercy mon sewer

[USU78]

So . . . 15-3/4 -> 17 feet in length is a fair range of possible lengths of the original Long Scroll. Is that fair to say?

How many of those feet would be needed for a complete Book of Breathings? How much is left over for the Joseph/Abraham material, assuming the Long Scroll was the source of them?

[CA Steve]

So . . . 15-3/4 -> 17 feet in length is a fair range of possible lengths of the original Long Scroll. Is that fair to say?

How many of those feet would be needed for a complete Book of Breathings? How much is left over for the Joseph/Abraham material, assuming the Long Scroll was the source of them?

One estimate I have seen for how much hieratic text it would take to write the main text of the Book of Abraham is around 500 cm (16.75'). That was based on extrapolations from the English translation of the instructions column in the Breathing Permit of Hor.

I thought the Joseph material was supposed to be located on a different scroll from the Abraham material?

[USU78]

One estimate I have seen for how much hieratic text it would take to write the main text of the Book of Abraham is around 500 cm (16.75'). That was based on extrapolations from the English translation of the instructions column in the Breathing Permit of Hor.

I thought the Joseph material was supposed to be located on a different scroll from the Abraham material?

[shalamabobbi]

If there are no disputations with respect to the three successive circumferences then the correct procedure here would be to use the third circumference to establish the maximum possible length for that portion of the scroll and to add to that the two previous circumferences to get the total maximum possible length.

[happy]

If Joseph was trying to reverse engineer the scrolls, and the scrolls were copies of the originals, not the originals themselves, perhaps even allowing that the reason the funeral scrolls were included is that the original facimilies were reused, this entire discussion would be moot as the text might be separate. Also possible Egypt wanted to discount Abraham? Perhaps their leaders destroyed the originals, but someone copied them down before that happened?

Could be a very viable and interesting story surrounding those scrolls. Do any believers ever take the time to ask how they got to America in the first place? If we could only rent a time machine.

[happy]

Also, if Egypt wanted them destroyed, it is possible the real scrolls were hidden inside the funeral scrolls to get them out of Egypt.

[USU78]

If Joseph was trying to reverse engineer the scrolls, and the scrolls were copies of the originals, not the originals themselves, perhaps even allowing that the reason the funeral scrolls were included is that the original facimilies were reused, this entire discussion would be moot as the text might be separate. Also possible Egypt wanted to discount Abraham? Perhaps their leaders destroyed the originals, but someone copied them down before that happened?

Could be a very viable and interesting story surrounding those scrolls. Do any believers ever take the time to ask how they got to America in the first place? If we could only rent a time machine.

Egypt was dominated by Europe and Turkey at the time . . . pretty easy to secret antiquities out when nobody's minding the store.

As for your conspiracy theories . . . wow . . . just . . . wow

[happy]

Egypt was dominated by Europe and Turkey at the time . . . pretty easy to secret antiquities out when nobody's minding the store.

As for your conspiracy theories . . . wow . . . just . . . wow

At which time? During Abraham's time? Afterwords?

And other than calling them conspiracy theories, is there a logical reason this wasn't possible? Joseph was tasked with reviving LOST texts.

[USU78]

At which time? During Abraham's time? Afterwords?

And other than calling them conspiracy theories, is there a logical reason this wasn't possible? Joseph was tasked with reviving LOST texts.

Many things are possible . . . most lack evidence of basis in fact.

[happy]

Many things are possible . . . most lack evidence of basis in fact.

I saw a butterfly yesterday. It was awesome. But the reality is I have no way to prove it. I didn't choose to photograph it. Millions of events happen every second without any evidence and can not be proven under any circumstance. The more we close our minds to possibilities, the more we will miss truth. Truth doesn't always lie with evidence. Truth can be hidden behind lack of recording, lack of believe, or lack of faith.

[MormonMason]

I ran the numbers using the "handy math" length of roll calculator site, referenced above, and got 47.33426 meters for the length of a scroll with a winding length of 10.5 cm.

However, I also needed to make sure that I had the right number for thickness. 168 microns is equal to 6.61417322835 mils. I used the already provided 3 cm hole mentioned above without change. Again, that is not including air gaps. But, if we double the number for thickness in mils to add potential air gaps, we still get 23.66713 meters in length.

That is roughly near the same calculation I got running the numbers from the Egyptological sources. With a correction factor I got just over 21 meters with that calculation, so, it looks like this handymath site potentially gives useful information. That is still more than enough length to include both the Horos Book of Breathing and another text like the Book of Abraham, with room to spare for unpublished and now lost material.

As to hiding one text within another, I think it is plausible. It is not difficult to attach together two differing papyrus texts, written at different times. All that was needed was about two to three wet "buffer" strips to glue both of them together. And, this has been done in the ancient world, too. Ani's Book of Going Forth by Day (commonly known as Book of the Dead) is actually composed of two differing rolls of the book, one custom made and the other a previously-written, stock copy with the names entered in with a couple missed locations.

What makes this "hidden text" idea more plausible--to me at least--is the "warning/instruction" text that often is included with longer, complete copies of the Book of Breathing. This instruction was to be read by the lector priest before placing it on the body and closing the sarcophagus. In the copies I have seen of Books of Breathing that contain it, that instruction comes at or near the end of the scroll.

In the case of the Horos scroll it is at the front of the scroll, right after the first vignette (an unusual place for it, in my view). I can almost visualize the shocked look on the lector priest's face when he hadn't even gotten past the first vignette and he reads the instructions and has to close the scroll and bury it before he expected to do soand before he gets the chance to unroll it further to see what is on the rest of it. Adhering to traditional practice he would have stopped right then, placed the scroll in its proper location and closed the sarcophagus without seeing anything else of the scroll.

The instruction written on the Horos scroll also implies that the scroll was written on both sides. Was it? That is one of many questions that I have.

We also know that Horos was buried with more than one text because he was buried with both a Book of Breathing and a Book of Going Forth by Day (also unusual since one usually is buried with either one or the other). The latter book is in the Louvre, bearing the same names and titles as the owner of the Horos Book of Breathing scroll.

Edited September 6, 2012 by MormonMason