Noah'S Flood

[CASteinman]

A shipwright, given the dimensions and materials for the ark, said that the vessal would be unfeasible and more than likely break into two.

Where did the shipwright find gopherwood for analysis?

How many ships had the shipwright seen that had been built under direct the guidance and direction of God?

[thesometimesaint]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_wood

God tends to work with what abilities men already have. How would you explain an airplane to Noah?

[CASteinman]

God tends to work with what abilities men already have. How would you explain an airplane to Noah?

I would begin with the Bernoulli principle.

So, what capabilities did men already have to make the ingots that glowed under their own power in the Jaredite Boats? What capabilities did Nephi have at all to build any boat? What capabilities to read the plates did Joseph have when God gave them to him -- and what capabilities to lead people and to build a Church did he have?

Edited July 30, 2012 by CASteinman

[mfbukowski]

I believe the idea of Peleg's day being a physical separation of lands is a relatively recent one based on scientific ideas rather than religious ones.

The Jews understood the story to be of a division into nations:

When you really think this through you discover that they could not have thought about it in any other way!

Today we look at a modern globe and we see the new world and the old world and the fairly obvious way that West Africa "fits" into the Gulf of Mexico and even more obviously the way eastern South America and the Brazilian coast "fits" into sub-saharan Africa and we can see continental drift clearly illustrated.

But surprise surprise, when Genesis was written, it was not at all clear that such a physical "division" existed.

Even when Columbus sailed, obviously, it was unknown that there was a continent between China or "The Indies" and the Strait of Gibraltar, hence of course the mistaken notion that Columbus landed in the Indies and called the inhabitants "Indians".

So then when the writers of Genesis were writing, what was this "division" they were speaking of? Clearly it was not a physical division between continents.

Edit: Oh, that's what you said in fewer words. Nevermind

Edited July 30, 2012 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

When you really think this through you discover that they could not have thought about it in any other way!

Today we look at a modern globe and we see the new world and the old world and the fairly obvious way that West Africa "fits" into the Gulf of Mexico and even more obviously the way eastern South America and the Brazilian coast "fits" into sub-saharan Africa and we can see continental drift clearly illustrated.

But surprise surprise, when Genesis was written, it was not at all clear that such a physical "division" existed.

Even when Columbus sailed, obviously, it was unknown that there was a continent between China or "The Indies" and the Strait of Gibraltar, hence of course the mistaken notion that Columbus landed in the Indies and called the inhabitants "Indians".

So then when the writers of Genesis were writing, what was this "division" they were speaking of? Clearly it was not a physical division between continents.

Edit: Oh, that's what you said in fewer words. Nevermind

Well, I did use some quotes to back myself up....

Plus you made it clear why they wouldn't have considered it a physical division...they didn't have the same view of the world as we do.

And for those that protest that it could have happened that way, the Jews just might not have known about it so just assumed it was linguistic....

Surely if they knew about the Flood from scriptures and understood what that meant (as I assume anyone who believes Peleg's was a physical division would believe), then a much more dramatic change to the earth would have been remembered and written about.

I think anyone who comes to the conclusion it is a physical division being discussed is completely ignoring the context of the verses around that verse, pulling it out and considering it as if it existed independently of the rest of scripture.

Edited July 31, 2012 by calmoriah

[bcuzbcuz]

So, your issue is not the wood, but rather the size.

How deeply familiar are you with the revealed plans and design features for the Ark?

How much engineering analysis have you done on "gopher wood"?

Neither you nor I know what "gopher wood" is. If the ark was made of any 'known' type of wood it would be subject to hogging and sagging...unless of course you make the assumption that the worldwide flood was as tranquil as a small pond. Please explain the physics of that.

Hogging and sagging (twisting and buckling) were the causes of a very great number of ships sinking or impractical in use. No one got over roughly a hundred meters without steel bolts. Did Noah have steel bolts?

Read, for example, about the American vessel, Wyoming, and what and why it had difficulties in sailing and was ultimately abandoned. It was 100 meters long, still 60 meters short of the ark.

What tools or measures did Noah have at his disposal to pump his ark dry from leaking, the results of hogging and sagging? Sorry, I have to say that I don't buy the idea of a wooden ship being free of leakage. I have many friends here in Sweden who own wooden sailboats (and why my boat is fiberglas) who spend each spring sealing and tightening their boats and sit up each night on 'boatguard' to make sure pumps are working around the clock and prevent these boats from sinking. AND this is while the boats are completely at rest, in calm waters, tied up at dock and none of them over 15 meters long. Physics is a factor.

You can't insist that I know how to engineer 'gopher wood' then deny physics in the factors of wooden ship construction.

Edited July 31, 2012 by bcuzbcuz

[Cobalt-70]

Neither you nor I know what "gopher wood" is. If the ark was made of any 'known' type of wood it would be subject to hogging and sagging...unless of course you make the assumption that the worldwide flood was as tranquil as a small pond. Please explain the physics of that.

Hogging and sagging (twisting and buckling) were the causes of a very great number of ships sinking or impractical in use. No one got over roughly a hundred meters without steel bolts. Did Noah have steel bolts?

Read, for example, about the American vessel, Wyoming, and what and why it had difficulties in sailing and was ultimately abandoned. It was 100 meters long, still 60 meters short of the ark.

What tools or measures did Noah have at his disposal to pump his ark dry from leaking, the results of hogging and sagging? Sorry, I have to say that I don't buy the idea of a wooden ship being free of leakage. I have many friends here in Sweden who own wooden sailboats (and why my boat is fiberglas) who spend each spring sealing and tightening their boats and sit up each night on 'boatguard' to make sure pumps are working around the clock and prevent these boats from sinking. AND this is while the boats are completely at rest, in calm waters, tied up at dock and none of them over 15 meters long. Physics is a factor.

You can't insist that I know how to engineer 'gopher wood' then deny physics in the factors of wooden ship construction.

Obviously I think the Noah story is mythology, but just to be fair, if the whole ark were made of wood, and there were no metal parts, wouldn't it float anyway, even if it were filled with water, simply because wood floats unless weighed down by something heavier? Not that a flooded wooden ship would make it any easier for you to save your mythical land animals from drowning. Or maybe Noah trained all the apes, monkeys, and other primates to bail with buckets.

[CASteinman]

If the ark was made of any 'known' type of wood it would be subject to hogging and sagging.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Did Noah have steel bolts?

Maybe. maybe not.

Read, for example, about the American vessel, Wyoming, and what and why it had difficulties in sailing and was ultimately abandoned. It was 100 meters long, still 60 meters short of the ark.

You mean a ship that was not designed nor its construction overseen by God? A ship that lasted 30 times longer than the Ark?

Why should I care about that?

What tools or measures did Noah have at his disposal to pump his ark dry from leaking, the results of hogging and sagging?

You need to ask him -- I was not there. How do you know that that it required pumping?

Sorry, I have to say that I don't buy the idea of a wooden ship being free of leakage.

You do not sound very sorry. But also, I don't care either. I don't even care if you do not believe God can do miracles.

You can't insist that I know how to engineer 'gopher wood' then deny physics in the factors of wooden ship construction.

Why not? Why can't I do that? Do you know anything about the physical characteristics of gopher wood or the manner of God's design and construction techniques? Anything at all?

[Rob Osborn]

It never fails to boggle my mind that mere man can suppose that just because Noah lived in a time lacking high technology, it would thus be impossible to construct a boat as described in scripture. God, as the chief engineer is way smarter than todays best college of engineers!

[thesometimesaint]

I would begin with the Bernoulli principle.

So, what capabilities did men already have to make the ingots that glowed under their own power in the Jaredite Boats? What capabilities did Nephi have at all to build any boat? What capabilities to read the plates did Joseph have when God gave them to him -- and what capabilities to lead people and to build a Church did he have?

You would have been burned at the stake as a witch

As I remember it was rocks not ingots

Bountiful had been inhabited off and on by people whom knew how to build a boat. Is it so unreasonable that Nephi could have talked to them?

Evidently after translating for a while JS learned how to do it on his own.

[CASteinman]

You would have been burned at the stake as a witch

Do you say this because you were there in the days of Noah and remember Noah burning people at the stake? Or do you have evidence outside of your personal experience?

As I remember it was rocks not ingots

They were "molten" out of rock and cast into a shape.

Bountiful had been inhabited off and on by people whom knew how to build a boat. Is it so unreasonable that Nephi could have talked to them?

Well... assuming that there were such people, when he spoke with them, do you think he chose any of their decisions over design instructions from God?

Evidently after translating for a while JS learned how to do it on his own.

Ahhh.. So not by the Gift and Power of God. OK... I get where you are coming from now.

[thesometimesaint]

CASteinman:

Do you say this because you were there in the days of Noah and remember Noah burning people at the stake? Or do you have evidence outside of your personal experience?

They were "molten" out of rock and cast into a shape.

Well... assuming that there were such people, when he spoke with them, do you think he chose any of their decisions over design instructions from God?

Ahhh.. So not by the Gift and Power of God. OK... I get where you are coming from now.

Me? I've never personally witnessed anyone being burned at the stake for any reason. But I do know how to read. It's in the Old Testament (Exodus 22:18) that has killing of witches required. It is an open question as to if Noah was under such a command. But he might well have been.

I don't know of any rocks that glow on their own(at least in human eyesight range), even when formed into blocks. But I do know of several chemicals that if added to the mix could produce a faint glow.

Why would he? There is no indications in the Book of Mormon where Nephi was prohibited from talking to others.

I have no problem with God telling someone what to do. But I also have no problem with other people helping along the way. Joseph Smith had a scribe too.

Edited July 31, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[bcuzbcuz]

Obviously I think the Noah story is mythology, but just to be fair, if the whole ark were made of wood, and there were no metal parts, wouldn't it float anyway, even if it were filled with water, simply because wood floats unless weighed down by something heavier? Not that a flooded wooden ship would make it any easier for you to save your mythical land animals from drowning. Or maybe Noah trained all the apes, monkeys, and other primates to bail with buckets.

Bailing primates.....I like it!

[bcuzbcuz]

It never fails to boggle my mind that mere man can suppose that just because Noah lived in a time lacking high technology, it would thus be impossible to construct a boat as described in scripture. God, as the chief engineer is way smarter than todays best college of engineers!

Ah! The miracle card! And I play my Occam's razor card.

[CASteinman]

Me? I've never personally witnessed anyone being burned at the stake for any reason. But I do know how to read. It's in the Old Testament (Exodus 22:18) that has killing of witches required. It is an open question as to if Noah was under such a command. But he might well have been.

CFR that Bernoulli Principle is specified as witchcraft in the Law of Moses and that the Law of Moses applied to Noah.

I don't know of any rocks that glow on their own(at least in human eyesight range), even when formed into blocks. But I do know of several chemicals that if added to the mix could produce a faint glow.

CFR that men had this capability in the days of Noah.

Why would he? There is no indications in the Book of Mormon where Nephi was prohibited from talking to others.

Yes, but did Noah ignore God's instructions when building his ship?

I have no problem with God telling someone what to do. But I also have no problem with other people helping along the way. Joseph Smith had a scribe too.

OK, but that is not the issue. You were proposing that Noah's Ark was built according the teachings of men and thus could not have been sufficient for the job.

CFR that God could not design a boat better than men could and CFR that Noah ignored those instructions.

The problem here, all along, has been that you insisted the boat is not possible based upon the technology of men in the 1800's. You have not given any credit to God or our lack of knowledge about the design God gave Noah. Hence rather than be so sure it could not have worked, I assert the better way is to say "We don't know" rather than "We know for sure it would have failed".

[CASteinman]

Ah! The miracle card! And I play my Occam's razor card.

And again I speak unto you who deny the revelations of God, and say that they are done away, that there are no revelations, nor prophecies, nor gifts, nor healing, nor speaking with tongues, and the interpretation of tongues. Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them. For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing? And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles.

But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man. And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death. And then cometh the judgment of the Holy One upon them; and then cometh the time that he that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still; he that is happy shall be happy still; and he that is unhappy shall be unhappy still.

And now, O all ye that have imagined up unto yourselves a god who can do no miracles, I would ask of you, have all these things passed, of which I have spoken? Has the end come yet? Behold I say unto you, Nay; and God has not ceased to be a God of miracles. Behold, are not the things that God hath wrought marvelous in our eyes? Yea, and who can comprehend the marvelous works of God? Who shall say that it was not a miracle that by his word the heaven and the earth should be; and by the power of his word man was created of the dust of the earth; and by the power of his word have miracles been wrought? And who shall say that Jesus Christ did not do many mighty miracles? And there were many mighty miracles wrought by the hands of the apostles.

And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles. And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust.

[Cobalt-70]

CFR that God could not design a boat better than men could and CFR that Noah ignored those instructions.

The bible already tells us what God's design was, and the technology isn't that impressive. It's just a huge three-story ship made out of wood smeared with asphalt.

[CASteinman]

The bible already tells us what God's design was and the technology isn't that impressive. It's just a huge three-story ship made out of wood smeared with asphalt.

The Bible is neither detailed nor perfect in its description. That you believe it is, does not make it so.

[thesometimesaint]

CASteinman:

CFR that Bernoulli Principle is specified as witchcraft in the Law of Moses and that the Law of Moses applied to Noah.

CFR that men had this capability in the days of Noah.

Yes, but did Noah ignore God's instructions when building his ship?

OK, but that is not the issue. You were proposing that Noah's Ark was built according the teachings of men and thus could not have been sufficient for the job.

CFR that God could not design a boat better than men could and CFR that Noah ignored those instructions.

The problem here, all along, has been that you insisted the boat is not possible based upon the technology of men in the 1800's. You have not given any credit to God or our lack of knowledge about the design God gave Noah. Hence rather than be so sure it could not have worked, I assert the better way is to say "We don't know" rather than "We know for sure it would have failed".

From the scant evidence we have in Scripture it is impossible to know what if anything Noah knew about the Law of Moses. But traditions against witchcraft are from time immemorial.

There are no indications that anyone knew in the times of Noah of the substances that would be needed to added to make rocks/ingot/blocks of metal glow.

I never said Noah ignored God, just that he or someone close to him know how to build a boat.

The description that Scriptures provide doesn't hold any promise of its sea worthiness. So either significant details are missing or God held it afloat. Take your pick.

Either the whole story can be dismissed as a series of supernatural miracles. There is no way to contradict such an argument. However, one must wonder about a God who reportedly does one thing and then arranges every bit of evidence to make it look like something else happened. It's entirely possible that a global flood occurred 4000 years ago or even last Thursday, and that God subsequently erased all the evidence, including our memories of it. But even if such stories are true, what's the point?

Edited August 1, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[Cobalt-70]

The Bible is neither detailed nor perfect in its description. That you believe it is, does not make it so.

The bible purports to tell us exactly what God told Noah. If we can't depend on what the bible literally says about God's words, then how can we depend on the bible as a literal historical record?

Edited August 1, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[Rob Osborn]

The vast evidence as seen in the geologic record testify of the flood. There is no dispute.

[CASteinman]

I never said Noah ignored God, just that he or someone close to him know how to build a boat.

You did not seem to say that, however, now that you are saying it: I challenge that. How do you know that any mortal human that Noah was in contact with -- knew how to build a boat?

The description that Scriptures provide doesn't hold any promise of its sea worthiness.

That is at least this false: In the scriptures there was a promise that the Ark would keep some of the inhabitants of the earth alive through the flood.

So either significant details are missing or God held it afloat. Take your pick.

There is no requirement to pick. It might be both of those things -- and it might also be other things as well.

Either the whole story can be dismissed as a series of supernatural miracles. There is no way to contradict such an argument. However, one must wonder about a God who reportedly does one thing and then arranges every bit of evidence to make it look like something else happened.

There is no requirement for "one" to wonder. It is not a must. It is a choice or a desire but not a must. Moreover, there is nothing about the text that requires some sort of wonderment about God being contradictory with regard to the boat.

It's entirely possible that a global flood occurred 4000 years ago or even last Thursday, and that God subsequently erased all the evidence, including our memories of it. But even if such stories are true, what's the point?

The latter concept is only possible if God ceases to be God.

Edited August 1, 2012 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

The bible purports to tell us exactly what God told Noah.

That is false.

[CASteinman]

There is no dispute.

I believe that there is plenty of dispute. And it is not unreasonable.

[Ron Beron]

Where did the shipwright find gopherwood for analysis?

How many ships had the shipwright seen that had been built under direct the guidance and direction of God?

]First one would have to understand what gopher (Heb. gofer) wood really was. Since we are uncertain as to what exactly it meant means to add to the confusion. What we do know is that gofer wood is probably a mistranslation of the word gofer which ostensibly has its roots in Mesopotamia. From the Jewish Encyclopedia

Others think that "gofer" can best be explained from the Assyro-Babylonian literature. Cheyne, starting from the assumption that the Hebrew narrative of the Deluge is a mere translation from some similar Babylonian document, supposes that the passage under discussion read in the original "gushure iṣ erini" (cedar-beams). He thinks that first the word "erini" was overlooked by the Hebrew translator, who afterward mistook "gushure" for a tree-name, and accordingly wrote ; next a scribe, whose eye was caught by at the end of the verse, miswrote (Stade's "Zeitschrift," 1898, p. 163; comp. Cheyne and Black, "Encyc. Bibl." s.v.). F. Hommel holds the Hebrew to be the Assyrian "giparu" (reed).

The "kufa" (Arabic, "kufr" = Hebr. "kofer" = "gofer") now in use on the rivers and canals of the land that gave birth to the Hebrew narrative of the Deluge are made of willow-branches, palm-leaves, etc., closely interwoven like basket-work, with a coat of bitumen on the inside. This is evidently a very old type of water-craft, suggested by the natural resources of a land devoid of large trees suitable for ship-building, but having an abundance of lighter material and bitumen. Such must have been the ark of Noah (Hastings, "Dict. Bible," s.v. "Babylonia"). J. Halévy implicitly adopts the same view ("Recherches Bibliques," i. 130).

Therefore, the ark was actually made out of reeds which was and still used along the Tigris and Euphrates

They were written on a tablet, which dates to around 1,700BC and was found in the Middle East during the 1940s by Leonard Simmons, who subsequently passed it on to his son Douglas.

Douglas took it to Irving Finkel, an expert at the British Museum, who "took one look at it an nearly fell off his chair". He then translated the 60 lines of script, and believes it is one of the first tablets to describe the shape of the famous ark.

"In all the images ever made people assumed the ark was, in effect, an ocean-going boat, with a pointed stem and stern for riding the waves – so that is how they portrayed it," Mr Finkel, Assistant Keeper Ancient Mesopotamian script, said. "But the ark didn't have to go anywhere, it just had to float, and the instructions are for a type of craft which they knew very well. It's still sometimes used in Iran and Iraq today, a type of round coracle which they would have known exactly how to use to transport animals across a river or floods."

The tablet describes the Mesopotamian story, which became the account in the Old Testament of Noah's Ark in the Book of Genesis.

In Mr Finkel's translation, the god speaks to Atram-Hasis, a Sumerian king who is the Noah figure in early versions of the ark story.

The tablet's translation says: "Wall, wall! Reed wall, reed wall! Atram-Hasis, pay heed to my advice, that you may live forever! Destroy your house, build a boat; despise possessions And save life! Draw out the boat that you will built with a circular design; Let its length and breadth be the same."

Mr Finkel, the curator of the recent British exhibition on ancient Babylon, believes it was during the Babylonian captivity that the exiled Jews learned of the story of Noah and incorporated it into the Old Testament.

"It is the most extraordinary thing," Douglas told The Guardian. "You hold it in your hand, and you instantly get a feeling that you are directly connected to a very ancient past – and it gives you a shiver down your spine." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/6923122/Noahs-Ark-was-circular-raft-made-of-reeds-according-to-ancient-tablet.html

.

As to the direction God gave Noah I guess we would have to read and reread the story again, but in the actual language of the time in which it was originally written, i.e., Sumerian.