Misquoting Jesus, In The Doctrine And Covenants?

[blackstrap]

From various assumptions I picked 12 billion. Then there is the fact that a fairly large percentage died before the age of accountability and that there would be a sizable chunk who would have no desire for the work to be done for them ....yet. I put the temples on a 12hr work schedule although one could argue for a 24 hour one. I assumed 10 sessions/day with 100 patrons/session. I'll let you fugure out how many temples would be needed on a 7 day work week. There of course might be a big backlog initially from the destruction at the Second coming.

[hagoth7]

...My question is this, do you feel that this misquote is responsible for many people thinking that members of the LDS Church are arrogant, or/also that some of us have "tunnel vision" when it comes to truth, and dismiss it when we find it in a source outside Mormonism?

I agree.

[CASteinman]

President Benson said that rather than the Lord being pleased, the church was under condemnation.

According to your link, it was not so much President Benson as it was God.

Fortunately though, we have repented.

[blackstrap]

we? you got a mouse in your pocket?

[CASteinman]

we? you got a mouse in your pocket?

Sorry. didn't mean to imply that you personally had repented. Maybe you can find it in your heart to forgive me....

[rameumptom]

I think many misinterpret the passage. The LDS Church is the only true and living church with which the Lord is well pleased. That means there may be other true and/or living churches out there, but the Lord is not well pleased with them, because they have accepted creeds or teachings that do not have His approval.

[CASteinman]

I think many misinterpret the passage. The LDS Church is the only true and living church with which the Lord is well pleased. That means there may be other true and/or living churches out there, but the Lord is not well pleased with them, because they have accepted creeds or teachings that do not have His approval.

Apparently there are people, maybe even a lot of them, who agree with you. It is absurd to me though, that God would go to all the trouble to notify Joseph Smith that those "creeds were an abomination in His sight" and that the Churches were "all wrong", that the professors were all "corrupt" so that Joseph should "join none of them" but also tell Joseph that these same :wrong" Churches were "True and Living" despite the corruption.

This doctrine you are proposing sounds to me, ridiculous.

[Damien the Leper]

Apparently there are people, maybe even a lot of them, who agree with you. It is absurd to me though, that God would go to all the trouble to notify Joseph Smith that those "creeds were an abomination in His sight" and that the Churches were "all wrong", that the professors were all "corrupt" so that Joseph should "join none of them" but also tell Joseph that these same :wrong" Churches were "True and Living" despite the corruption.

This doctrine you are proposing sounds to me, ridiculous.

And your elitism is that much more ridiculous and horrendous.

Your styled theology reminds me of the Acts 29 Reformed movement. They believe that their Calvinist based Reformed theology is the ONLY true Christian way of interpreting scriptures and that other simply miss the point. Such arrogance.

Let me put it simply. It would be ignorant and quite stupid for anyone to say that such a claim for their church is okay but not for another. It is a never ending hypocrisy.

To them I scoff...just as I do you.

[Damien the Leper]

Not by your false definition of what is circular reasoning.

Then can you prove your position without asserting LDS authority without quoting the D&C and quoting LDS GAs?

[Damien the Leper]

Nothing Calvinistic about it. However, God is sort of an elitist. Its the plan that only some make it.

Still sounds like Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement to me. Have you read John Piper's book "God Is Most Glorified As We Are Calvinified In Him"?

[Damien the Leper]

This is in the plans.

CFR for official statement regarding such.

[Damien the Leper]

That is irrelevant to what God has declared.

Hmmm.. thats sure an opinion all right!

I don't really understand why people who are LDS are so afraid of the Restoration of the Gospel being committed only into the hands of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a key component of the message.

Your assumption that we are afraid of anything is misguided. Yesterday, in Elder's Quorum we talked about effectively teaching the gospel or sharing it. An elderly brother who seems to be well travelled and educated stated that in order to understand Gospel Doctrine we must have a more firm understanding of early Christian theology. Apparently, he puts foundational theology before Gospel Doctrine. You know...the milk before meat scenario. He also stated that if the membership perceives the Restoration to be proof of what others 'get wrong' then the membership has missed the message of Jesus and the message of the Restoration.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Valentinus

[Zakuska]

I found yesterdays Priesthood Lesson speaks directly to the topic of this thread.

Teachings of George Albert Smith

Missionary work is most effective when we do it with love and kindness, not coercion or criticism.

Our Heavenly Father … has sent us, his representatives, into the world, not to drive or coerce, but to invite. “Come follow me,” is what the Savior said, “And I will give you peace.” That is what the Gospel teaches, and that is our ministry.³

It is not the purpose of this Church to make statements that would hurt the feelings of those who do not understand things. This Church is not one that goes about criticising and finding fault with others, but in the spirit of loving kindness and the desire to be helpful, its representatives carry the Gospel message to the nations of the earth.⁴

In all … churches there are good men and good women. It is the good that is in these various denominations that holds them together. It has been my privilege to be with people in many parts of the world and to be in the homes of many people of the various denominations of the world, both Christian and Jew. I have been with the [Muslims]; I have been with those who believe in Confucius; and I might mention a good many others. I have found wonderful people in all these organizations, and I have the tremendous responsibility wherever I go among them, that I shall not offend them, not hurt their feelings, not criticize them, because they do not understand the truth.

As representatives of the Church we have the responsibility to go among them with love, as servants of the Lord, as representatives of the Master of heaven and earth. They may not altogether appreciate that; they may resent that as being egotistical and unfair, but that would not change my attitude. I am not going to make them unhappy if I can help it. I would like to make them happy, especially when I think of the marvelous opportunities that have come to me because of membership in this blessed Church.⁵

Our ministry is one of love and forbearance, and we desire to do good to all, and to assist all to understand the plan of life and salvation that the Lord revealed in this latter day.⁶

We cannot drive these young people, and our neighbors and friends into the kingdom of heaven by scolding them and finding fault with them, but I want to tell you that we can love them into the direction of our Father in heaven, and by and by, perhaps, lead them there too.

That is our privilege. Love is the great power to influence this world.⁷

Let us who know, those of us who have a testimony, go forth day by day and with love and kindness unfeigned go among these men and women, whether they be in the Church or out of the Church, and find a way to touch their hearts and lead them into that pathway that will insure them a knowledge of the truth.⁸

How I pray that we as the servants of the Lord may have charity for mankind, may have patience with those who err, and in kindness and love go forward teaching the simple principles of the gospel of our Lord to the blessing of every soul with whom we come in contact.⁹ [see suggestion 2 on page 155.]

We seek to add to the happiness and goodness that God’s children already possess.

When [people] have asked me, “What is there about this organization that you belong to? What is it that you are so concerned about, that you send your missionaries all over the world?” I have replied sometimes, “We want you all to be happy. We want you all to rejoice as we rejoice.”¹⁵

Thousands upon thousands of missionaries … have gone out into the world, and in love and kindness they have gone from door to door saying to our Father’s other children:

“Let us reason with you; let us explain to you something that we are sure will make you happy as it has made us happy!”

That is the history of the missionary work of the Church with which we are identified.¹⁶

I remember, upon one occasion, a man said to me, after we had talked some time, “Well, from all I can learn, your church is just as good as any other church.” I presume he thought he was paying us a great compliment; but I said to him: “If the Church I represent here is not of more importance to the children of men than any other church, then I am mistaken in my duty here. We have come not to take away from you the truth and virtue you possess. We have not come to find fault with you or to criticize you. … Keep all the good that you have, and let us bring to you more good, in order that you may be happier and in order that you may be prepared to enter into the presence of our Heavenly Father.” [see suggestion 4 on page 155.]

… In the time that the Savior was on earth, in the meridian of time, there were other churches; there were numerous denominations and sects, and they believed that they were serving the Lord. The great synagogues of Judea were filled with men who believed they had the authority of the priesthood. They had been following the teachings, as they thought, of Abraham and Moses. They continued to proclaim the coming of the Savior of the world. They had encouraged men and women to works of righteousness. They had builded a temple, and houses of worship. They had erected monuments to the prophets who had borne testimony of the existence of God, and some of whom had been slain and had sealed their testimony with their life’s blood. These were the people to whom the Savior came. … There was much good in them. There were many good men and women among them. There was much righteousness among that people. The Savior did not come to take away any of those good things from them. When he appeared among them it was not to condemn them, but it was to call them to repentance, it was to call them from their error and to encourage them to retain all the truth that they possessed.

… When we proclaim to the human family, as we do, that man has apostatized from the gospel, we are not proclaiming something that has not occurred in the world before. When we say good men and women have been led to do and believe things that are not correct, we do not say that in condemnation, we do not speak with a desire to wound, but we speak with a desire that men may pause sufficiently long to examine themselves, to see where they are going and what will be their final destiny.¹⁷

Oh! that we might be able to give mankind an understanding of our feelings, that they might realize that we do not desire to curtail their opportunities, but that they might feel that our hearts reach out to them in love and kindness, not with any desire to hurt. Our mission in the world is to save souls, to bless them, and to place them in a condition that they may go back into the presence of our Father, crowned with glory, immortality, and eternal life.¹⁸

http://www.lds.org/m...ter-14?lang=eng

Edited July 16, 2012 by Zakuska

[CASteinman]

Still sounds like Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement to me. Have you read John Piper's book "God Is Most Glorified As We Are Calvinified In Him"?

Sorry to give you that impression. The Election is Conditional and the Atonement unlimited. I do not see how what I said shows otherwise.

[CASteinman]

CFR for official statement regarding such.

I suspect it depends upon what you call "official". I have had people here declare that the consistent teachings of 13 of the previous Prophets -- including Joseph Smith -- are not official.

[CASteinman]

Your assumption that we are afraid of anything is misguided. Yesterday, in Elder's Quorum we talked about effectively teaching the gospel or sharing it. An elderly brother who seems to be well travelled and educated stated that in order to understand Gospel Doctrine we must have a more firm understanding of early Christian theology. Apparently, he puts foundational theology before Gospel Doctrine. You know...the milk before meat scenario. He also stated that if the membership perceives the Restoration to be proof of what others 'get wrong' then the membership has missed the message of Jesus and the message of the Restoration.

I do not agree with this fellow who says we need to have a more firm understanding of early Christian Theology in order to understand Gospel Doctrine. That sort of thing is, to me, the opposite of milk before meat and is also sort of elitist in a prideful, unrighteous way.

The Restoration is proof that the other Churches get it wrong. After all, that is the express reason, according to God, that He did what He did.

[Damien the Leper]

Sorry to give you that impression. The Election is Conditional and the Atonement unlimited. I do not see how what I said shows otherwise.

Are you even familiar with Calvin and T.U.L.I.P.?

Here is some help for you:

T -- total depravity. This doesn't mean people are as bad as they can be. It means that sin is in every part of one's being, including the mind and will, so that a man cannot save himself.

U -- unconditional election. God chooses to save people unconditionally; that is, they are not chosen on the basis of their own merit.

L -- limited atonement. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross was for the purpose of saving the elect.

I -- irresistible grace. When God has chosen to save someone, He will.

P -- perseverence of the saints. Those people God chooses cannot lose their salvation; they will continue to believe. If they fall away, it will be only for a time.

[Damien the Leper]

I suspect it depends upon what you call "official". I have had people here declare that the consistent teachings of 13 of the previous Prophets -- including Joseph Smith -- are not official.

This is not a response to my CFR.

[Damien the Leper]

I do not agree with this fellow who says we need to have a more firm understanding of early Christian Theology in order to understand Gospel Doctrine. That sort of thing is, to me, the opposite of milk before meat and is also sort of elitist in a prideful, unrighteous way.

The Restoration is proof that the other Churches get it wrong. After all, that is the express reason, according to God, that He did what He did.

You have now demonstrated in whole that you have missed the point.

[Calm]

If it's true that our membership in the United States is less than 2%, I'll second that Hallelujah! I often wonder how or when we are ever going to finish the temple work for billions of people. If it's true that we do need to do this in order for them to make it to the CK, then we need to turn every one of our chapels into a temple during the week and on Saturdays.

Won't take that long during the Millennium. I believe it was Urroner who did the math one day, wouldn't even take a majority of the Millennium to do it.

[Calm]

I don't really understand why people who are LDS are so afraid of the Restoration of the Gospel being committed only into the hands of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

And yet Joseph Smith was not LDS when the Restoration was committed into his hands.....

[CASteinman]

Are you even familiar with Calvin and T.U.L.I.P.?

Yes. It is a blight on Christianity. You will note that what I proposed was exactly opposite along the two parameters in common.

[CASteinman]

This is not a response to my CFR.

Actually yes, it was a response to your CFR -- a call that had a modifier on the "reference" requirement. Before I can respond to it in more detail, I need to understand the modifier you applied. Based upon previous posts you have made, you will not accept Scriptures -- as they are circular. And also, the term "official" may vary from one person to another. I have no idea whether I can respond until I know what your modifier entails. It is certainly possible for you to have a set of conditions upon which no such reference exists -- or even could be expected to exist.

Edited July 17, 2012 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

You have now demonstrated in whole that you have missed the point.

Maybe I am stupid. Maybe you did not make the point very clear. Why don't you just say it straight out instead of making it a sort of a game of Clue?

On the other hand, maybe I got the point and disagreed with it. In your mind is disagreement the same thing as not "getting" it?

Edited July 17, 2012 by CASteinman

[CASteinman]

And yet Joseph Smith was not LDS when the Restoration was committed into his hands.....

Are you sure? When was the restoration committed into his hands?