All Things In Likeness Of Christ? Really?!?

[CASteinman]

Constantly banging the drum of reason, without any appeal to faith, is a role that is diametrically opposed to a living a life of faith and discipleship.

You and your vaunted concept of "Faith". If Faith were all that important, don't you think it would be a fundamental principle of the Gospel? Don't you think that Jesus would have said something about Faith instead of constantly telling us to study up and become like the Scribes and Pharisees who were so wise....

oh .... opps..Like Willie Wonka says "Wait a minute. Strike that. Reverse it."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_rKWdH-ox8

[danielwoods]

Define "spiritual." What is it? Is there any evidence it is real? I'm just asking, not doubting.....I think we need to explore it so we understand rather in solid terms instead of some ethereal thinking.....

I can't help you with your opening question, but I think I can help somewhat here.

What is spiritual? What is spirit?

For someone who doesn't think such a thing exists, then what is self-awareness? What are feelings of self conscience? What is thought? Is it all just a bio-electric chain reaction?

Further, what is the source of complex thought, and information? Did it just arise by itself?

What I'm getting at, is sure we use the word "spirit" and attach meaning to it, but ascribe it no substance that is physical, making the word meaningless, if we think that only physical things exist. But, if the physical world isn't enough to explain it's own existence, then a non-physical substance, such as the idea we attach to "spirit" is a possibility or reason for it's existence.

Even Jesus alluded to this many times, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit."

[Glenn101]

I think that Kerry was correct in his belief that his friend's interpretation of the scripture, as stated, was incorrect. My understanding of that scripture is that everything created physically has the likeness of its spirit. i.e. that the spirit body of a fly would look like the physical body it inhabits. This would explain why Moses in Exodus 33:23 could see the back parts of the Lord (Jehovah/Jesus) and the brother of Jared in Ether 3:6 could see the finger of the Lord centuries before Jehovah acquired a physical body.

Glenn

[bcuzbcuz]

All Things Bear Record of Christ?!

By Kerry A. Shirts

An LDS acquaintance of mine here on these boards and I were discussing the significance and importance of science and religion, faith and knowledge. He said this to me after quoting the Pearl of Great Price:

Moses 6:63

“63 And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me.

I took this picture in a museum in Xania, Crete, last week. This marble statue is dated between 180-190 AD from the time of the Roman occupation of Crete, recovered from the Roman city of Gortyn, on the south coast of Crete. Guess who it represents?.....and rather well, I think.

Edited July 15, 2012 by bcuzbcuz

[SamIam]

I took this picture in a museum in Xania, Crete, last week. This marble statue is dated between 180-190 AD from the time of the Roman occupation of Crete, recovered from the Roman city of Gortyn, on the south coast of Crete. Guess who it represents?.....and rather well, I think.

(I tried to post a picture from my computer but failed. Any tips?)

Try here.

[happy]

Hey religion has in every single instance of scientific advances in real knowledge always given ground to it. I know of no singular piece of knowledge where science has told religion "woops, we are wrong, and you are right, so we will follow your lead at the truth." There is NONE. Science doesn't even need to acknowledge religion, it is always religion begging science for its blessing so as to give it a more realistic and powerful legitimacy. Interesting since religion screams faith is stronger, but she sure lusts after the prestige of science with its actual knowledge. Science has the track record. All one has to do is open your eyes and look around. The evidence that science works is in literally EVERY HOME in America and abroad in the world, and out in the cities with every single building, car, dam on rivers, telephone poles with those trillions of miles of wire, etc. Copier machines and faxes in the office, ipads, cell phones, and elevators. Every single invention made is proof science such as relativity, quantum physics, evolution, chemistry, physics, and astronomy are working and alive and very astonishingly healthy and well in our lives.

Religion doesn't answer questions about how the world works, but why it's there. That is the difference between the two from a secular perspective. Religion says there is a God and He made the world. Science tries to tell us how he made it. Religion has not given way to science unless people allow it to. The problem is people try to merge to two together, like you do.

Lets take the parting of the Red Sea. A faithful person would conclude simply God did it supernaturally. But many people try to involve science and see how science could come up with a natural reason on how the Red Sea was parted. If science can not come up with an answer, then some people lose faith because they believe science has all the answers. If you think that the parting of the Red Sea now has to be tossed out because science can't explain it, that's your choice, not mine.

This is where faith comes in. I have a spiritual witness that God lives, that the LDS Church is His Church. So you can call me naive, stupid, ignorant, or whatever, but I still have that magic in my heart to allow the world to be more mysterious than you do. I don't need science to show me every detail or explain every little thing. People seem to want science to prove we are nothing but a bag of chemicals with no soul. That love is merely a chemical reaction. You might want to live in that world, but I don't.

What has science done? It has given us many wonderful things, but it also has changed people for the worse. Marriage is being obsoleted, families are falling apart. Women are becoming ironically more sexualized, and community is giving way to excessive individuality. Now people are behind computer screens losing tact and compassion. Break down on the side of the road, and very few people of any will pull over and help. Organized Religion, IMHO, created unity, service, and empathy. Science is tearing that apart.

So you can worship your Science, abandon the Church you apparently once defended (looked you up) and live in the believe we are all natural robots with no purpose or reason. I'll continue to believe in God and accept Science has limitations, isn't always the greatest approach to life's questions, and continue to strive for that human connection that keeps us all sane.

[CV75]

All Things

He descended below all things, rose above all things. Both thoughtful and unthoughtful, literal and non-literal, both litterate and illerate people can arrive at this observation without much conseternation.

[Deborah]

Getting crotchety in your old age, Br. Shirts?

All the times I've read that scripture I've always thought of it in grander terms, like nature repeating the cycles of life as representing resurrection, etc. I have to say I never thought of it in terms of the minutia, although some good points have been given about how even those things play their part.

I do wonder why someone would put in such a long post on this verse which I think was intended to look at the bigger picture and not the pesky little things that irritate us. After all mosquitoes play their part in giving us trials to overcome and in spurring science to come up with cures to diseases that have plagued man, although I would never think of them as relating to this verse which I think is mortal man's limited way of expressing a very deep concept of the eternal nature of all life.

[SamIam]

I think that Kerry was correct in his belief that his friend's interpretation of the scripture, as stated, was incorrect. My understanding of that scripture is that everything created physically has the likeness of its spirit. i.e. that the spirit body of a fly would look like the physical body it inhabits. This would explain why Moses in Exodus 33:23 could see the back parts of the Lord (Jehovah/Jesus) and the brother of Jared in Ether 3:6 could see the finger of the Lord centuries before Jehovah acquired a physical body.

Glenn

Perhaps you might look more closely at the scripture. What you have stated above is fine for a partial understanding of the first 7 words. You can stop there and use that to make the Moses and Ether statements have the references points that you find and if that is all you need from the verse that's great. However, there are an additional 60 words in the verse which tie into the context of the chapter.

Nonetheless, I wouldn't take my word over any others without first doing a little research. Here is the verse and what follows is a simple net search with many hits that expand upon the concept just as Kerry's LDS acquaintance chose to do.

Moses 6:63

“63 And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me.

All Things Testify of Christ - Episode 61

http://mormonchannel.org/qa/61

Moses 6:62–63 . “All Things Have Their Likeness”

Read Moses 6:63 and ask students to give examples of things “in the heavens,” “on the earth,” “in the earth,” or “under the earth,” and have them tell how they think these things symbolically “bear record” of Christ. For example, the planets witness the handiwork of God (see Alma 30:44 ), and seeds that are planted in the ground and then sprout into life bear record of Christ’s Resurrection (see John 12:23–24 ; 1 Corinthians 15:35–38 ).

http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/pearl-of-great-price-teacher-manual/pgp-tch-mos-6-4.asp

If we can but comprehend that Jesus Christ, the creator of the universe, is the master teacher, that the universe is his classroom, and that his curriculum is the Atonement and all things pertaining to it, then the rich symbolism of the scriptures can come alive for us. In such a study, Moses’ life and ministry are excellent examples that “all things” testify of Christ. Moses’ life is a type, or symbol, of the Savior’s life, and Moses’ ministry is a symbol of Jesus Christ’s teachings and the plan of salvation, the avenue by which we may return to our Father’s presence.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/04/moses-witness-of-jesus-christ

Enoch was taught that all things in the universe bear record of and glorify God (see Moses 6:63; compare 1 Enoch 69:21–24).

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=100&chapid=1115

“Regardless of designation, the enabling essence of the plan is the atonement of Jesus Christ” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1993, 45; or Ensign, Nov. 1993, 33 ).

Moses 6:63 . All Things Are Made to Bear Record of Christ

In the creation of the heavens and the earth, the Lord used physical symbols to teach us doctrines and principles of Jesus Christ and His gospel (see also 2 Nephi 11:4 ). Understanding gospel symbols requires the uniting of an earthly or concrete dimension with a transcendent, spiritual dimension. The prophet Alma taught that “all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator” ( Alma 30:44 ). These things not only testify of the existence of a Supreme Being, but also that He is Jesus Christ, the Creator of all.

http://www.ldsces.org/manuals/pearl-of-great-price-student-manual/pgp-2-m6-57.asp

[bcuzbcuz]

Try here.

Thank you! Your tip was precise and easy to follow. I appreciate that very much.

[CASteinman]

I took this picture in a museum in Xania, Crete, last week. This marble statue is dated between 180-190 AD from the time of the Roman occupation of Crete, recovered from the Roman city of Gortyn, on the south coast of Crete. Guess who it represents?.....and rather well, I think.

Very nice picture. What did the museum say the statue was an image of?

[volgadon]

Very nice picture. What did the museum say the statue was an image of?

Sarapis!

[ShawFanX]

All Things Bear Record of Christ?!

By Kerry A. Shirts

An LDS acquaintance of mine here on these boards and I were discussing the significance and importance of science and religion, faith and knowledge. He said this to me after quoting the Pearl of Great Price:

Moses 6:63

“63 And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me.

He then noted:

“Many years ago I accepted this scripture as a foundation of my testimony. I have accepted and tested it and it is true. Over the years I have developed my understandings of all things temporal and spiritual in accordance with this principle. Following the insight of scriptures and counsel of prophets , I seek to find the likeness of my God and my Savior in all things both in heaven and Earth. If the scriptures are true to you then it should remind you of how it is that one can see God and his creations as I have done.”

Now I (Kerry) would propose this: Unfortunately, one can only accept this without having thought on it much. Allow me to explain please. I think what happens is that we are so over-awed by scripture sometimes that we stop thinking through the ramifications of what is said. A little reflection shows us the utter absurdity of the above philosophy of accepting this on face value.

Consider if you will Mosquitos. Blood sucking diseases carrying very ugly bugs. This is in likeness of Christ? Really? Now granted, the mosquito Aedes albopictus has actually mutated its parts of its biting apparatus into another pair of legs, so that they cannot penetrate our skin because they lack the tactile and chemosensory hairs that locate the right spot, but this is a likeness of Christ? So do we say that mutated species are a likeness of a mutating Christ or something?

What about say stink beetles? Of all the species on earth, there are more beetles than all other species combined! This surely must be significant to the Creator as a likeness of Christ. The stink beetle emits horrid smells out of its butt when threatened, while its cousin the dung beetle rolls around poop in order to have something to lays its eggs in. So do we conclude from a likeness of Christ that he emits horrible smells out of his butt, rolls around feces of others in order to lay eggs?! What possibly kind of likeness can beetles have to Christ? Can we say Christ stinks because this is a likeness of the beetle? Is Christ in similitude of a dirty black little hairy legged bug that smells both because of bodily emissions and its working all day in crap?

Consider the fly. Here we have a dirty poop hopping insect which lands on people, spreading dreadful diseases that can and has killed millions, stings them, bites them, tortures innocent cattle, horses, pigs, and all manner of animal farms, yea even unto the nethermost parts of the earth. Here we have a pest which settles upon the eyes, nose, ears, neck, face, and skin of a poor sick, starving child, gnawing, pestering and stinging, sparing no creature, making life a complete misery, good for nothing except swatting and getting them out of the house and our lives, especially at picnics! No matter that desperate mothers trying to keep their starving to death child safe, and shooing the damndable things away, they relentless pursue their prey all through the long hot days of pure unrelenting torture. In what possible manner is this thing a likeness of Christ?! It is palpably absurd to pretend there is any likeness here, except exercising the most awful mental gymnastics of insanity in order to try to find a likeness. Who in the name of sanity would even want to?

Consider the ichneumonidae wasp whose remarkable “design” has it having the ability to lay eggs inside a caterpillar. The newly hatched larvae parasites live inside the caterpillar, consuming its organs while it is alive. It eats the internal organs in a specific order which keeps their host caterpillar alive for as long as possible (the insect version of Sushi?!). The parasite are born knowing how to do this. They come into the world with a genetically programmed instinct to consume the internal organs of its host caterpillar in a specific order. So are we then, in order to convince others of the aptness and truth of the scripture to propound that Christ is a monster insect larvae who eats his hosts from the inside out, keeping them alive for as long as possible to quench his awful thirst and hunger at their expense? Pray tell just HOW does this represent a likeness to Christ?

What of the cat which tortures the mouse for apparently the pure fun of it for hours on end? It obvious can kill the poor critter anytime it likes, but instead, it claws and punches, throws the mice high up in the air watching them thud back to the earth, clawing them painfully hurting and causing them to bleed. Pray tell what kind of theological likeness to Christ can we gain from this natural occurrence?

And about the Cosmos after all, pray tell, what to think of black holes which suck absolutely everything, including light, information, etc. into it, emitting nothing back out? It is a bottomless pit of hunger devouring and utterly destroying everything it absorbs. Is THIS a good likeness of Christ to try and show?

What of Neutron stars which rapidly shrink because of the collapsing gravititational pull and then suddenly explode violently scattering the goods of what the planet was made of over the vast eons of spacetime? Is the likeness here supposed to be of a Christ who violently throws a temper tantrum or something and literally explodes his guts and brains all over the place?!

And further, what about the 2^nd Law of Thermodynamics? Everything runs down. The cosmos itself is constantly on the move, and constantly changing. Is THIS a proper likeness of Christ, ever changing with no finality of form or teaching or morals in any manner? No stability, no constant, but only change, and that inexorably downward into uselessness as the 2^nd law proves?!

What of radioactivity of atomic substances? Here for no apparent reasons and with no fore warnings all the sudden part of it simply flies off into space. And some of these substances such as Uranium, Cesium and Plutonium are seriously deadly! They KILL. What kind of likeness are we supposed to make with this? Christ losing parts of himself for any reason at any time and those parts killing someone or something?

What of extinct dinosaurs? Virtually millions of species dead. Gone, no more to be alive, dead for umpteen millions of years. What kind of likeness to Christ can we possibly draw from this stuff “under the earth”? Do bones of dead dino skulls have a likeness that we now can conclude that God is a mere bonehead like his likenesses the dinosaurs?!

What of monkeys and apes? We know thanks to evolution that our genes are 98% related to monkeys, and that we all had a common ancestor somewhere way back there in time. So the likeness to Christ would be like what, that he “monkeys” around with salvation or something? Or does he just go “ape” when we disobey?

Germs anyone? Micro-organisms?, parasites? Mammals, insects, chordata? How can everything be in a likeness both big and small without viral contradiction and problems? If absolutely everything is a likeness, is Christ then just simply everything? What possible kind of being could that end up being? What are all the legs, antennae, internal organs, eyes, tongues, tails, toenails, stripes, spots, smoothness, roughness, scales, hair, sex organs, bones, flesh, blood, nerves, liquids, solids, urine, and feces supposed to be telling us about any likeness of Christ?!? Do all the obvious contradictions prove the likeness to Christ only proves he is merely one big contradiction?

And since mankind is here, and we have ideas, and the scriptures says ALL things are a likeness, what about concepts or ideas? Aren’t these spiritual? Or are they physical since they are generated from physical brains? What does spiritually mean anyway? If just mental ideas, do ideas of atheism have any likeness to Christ? The verse is so vague and overarching broad as to be literally useless to take literal. What about evil? Is THAT also a likeness of Christ?

With just a brief amount of reflection on these things we already find truly stunning and enormous problems of literally accepting that poetic verse of scripture which I suppose is attempting to give us some kind of majesty of God or something. But on reflection, if taken literally, it becomes a complete insult and cause nothing but consternation to a thoughtful person.

Please excuse me, but this kind of warmed over Kindergarten Saganism has really become quite old. So to is the presumptuous intellectual arrogance one finds when one abandons both faith and imagination for self sufficient reason and begins to worship reason and unaided human intellection in lieu of God (worship of the self and of human-kind itself - humanism, in other words).

The dismissive philosophical sloppiness that attends such endevors (well attested in Dawkins atrocious The God Delusion) also seems to be an inevitable componet of this trend, as well as hugely exaggerated estimations and expectations regarding what scientific methodoloy, logical reasoning, and empirical observation can actually tell us about the cosmos (which, as the gospel makes abundantly clear, is really more something like a multiverse).

Few things, if examples are desired from nature, can be likened unto Christ and his infinite intelligence, wisdom, and creative mind, than the Arachnida, and the Praying Mantis.

Edited July 15, 2012 by ShawFanX

[ShawFanX]

Science is NOT an attempt to understand God. Where on earth do you find this kind of stuff from man? I can't even make this kind of thinking up........ this is utterly incredible. Pray tell WHICH scientists are saying this? Please, i would really like to find out who...... your misunderstanding of science is just so off base I honestly don't know how to even respond to it. Sorry.

Scientism, a philosophy of which many scientists are a part, is, indeed, attempting to find God - in mankind itself. The most important fountainhead of this idea, it could reasonably be argued, is Auguste Comte, refined and rationalized by many that came after him.

[ShawFanX]

I'm not ignoring it. All those 'bad' things I see as a further record of God's teaching about the necessity of opposition.

Exactly. Pandora's Box, in the original Greek myth, did not contain only disease, death, war, famine, bad breath, and pimples; it contained all the elements of the mortal condition - Yin and Yang - in dynamic interplay. Pandora's Box, like the tree of the knolwedge of good and evil in gospel teaching, was the means through which mortality became mortality; it was the means of releasing all the "opposites in all things" that make our mortal experience a probationary state (although I don't believe the ancient Greeks say it quite that way. They used the symbolism of the labyrinth to describe mortality and its key challenges in certain mythic stories).

[ShawFanX]

Yes, that is a religious interpretation........ I understand........

But, quite to the point, there is no scientific interpretation of thiese phenomena at all, only mechanistic explanations. There is no teleology or meaning in science, but simply explication of the observable, cause-effect relationships between repeatable phenomiena. That's the scientific view. The scientistic view is that this represents the totality of all phenomenal reality.

[ShawFanX]

I think that Kerry was correct in his belief that his friend's interpretation of the scripture, as stated, was incorrect. My understanding of that scripture is that everything created physically has the likeness of its spirit. i.e. that the spirit body of a fly would look like the physical body it inhabits. This would explain why Moses in Exodus 33:23 could see the back parts of the Lord (Jehovah/Jesus) and the brother of Jared in Ether 3:6 could see the finger of the Lord centuries before Jehovah acquired a physical body.

Glenn

Could be, but the larger question looming before us is here, in Alma 30:41:

But, behold, I have all things as a testimony that these things are true; and ye also have all things as a testimony unto you that they are true; and will ye deny them? Believest thou that these things are true?

[ShawFanX]

Define "spiritual."

Everything.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Everything.

Why is everything spiritual? And can you demonstrate this with anything realistic? Or is this just a claim said without evidence? If so, is there any logical reason why I should believe it on simple say so?

[ShawFanX]

Why is everything spiritual? And can you demonstrate this with anything realistic? Or is this just a claim said without evidence? If so, is there any logical reason why I should believe it on simple say so?

Everything, according to gospel doctrine, is matter (the constituents of form, structure, and pattern). However, it is also clearly taught that spirit is a higher, purer, or more refined form of matter. Hence, if must follow that all matter is a form or instance of spirit, and all spirit is a manifestation of matter existing at different levels or frequencies, if you will. Some forms (Terrestrial and Celestial phenomena) can be higher, purer, and more refined, while other forms (the matter that constitutes the spirits of devils or evil spirits in Outer Darkness) can be more refined (less dense or encumbering) but not pure or higher in development. Other forms of spirit appear as what we call "matter" under Telestial conditions.

Therefore, if all matter is a phenomenal manifestation of spirit, then the definition of "spiritual,'" in its broadest sense, is everything you perceive in the universe and your relation to it. This would mean that both everything in the universe and the context and meaning of all phenomena have a spiritual component or relevance. To be spiritual, however, is another thing entirely.

[Glenn101]

Could be, but the larger question looming before us is here, in Alma 30:41:

But, behold, I have all things as a testimony that these things are true; and ye also have all things as a testimony unto you that they are true; and will ye deny them? Believest thou that these things are true?

Kerry's original post objected to this reasoning by his friend: "I seek to find the likeness of my God and my Savior in all things both in heaven and Earth. If the scriptures are true to you then it should remind you of how it is that one can see God and his creations as I have done.”

The scripture quoted by the friend does not say that one will find the likeness of the Savior in all things. What it says, in part is: "And behold, all things have their likeness." That was what I was referring to. No more, no less. I think that Kerry may have misunderstood his friend a bit. But I was not there.

I surely believe that all things testify of Christ, but not in the sense that Kerry is proposing, but in the sense that the incredible complexity of life, even the most simple, testifies that there is a Creator.

Glenn

[ShawFanX]

I surely believe that all things testify of Christ, but not in the sense that Kerry is proposing, but in the sense that the incredible complexity of life, even the most simple, testifies that there is a Creator.

Glenn

A perspective with which I entirely agree, and in depth.

[Glenn101]

Why is everything spiritual? And can you demonstrate this with anything realistic? Or is this just a claim said without evidence? If so, is there any logical reason why I should believe it on simple say so?

I think ShawFanX is taking the everything spiritual a little to far. However, I would say that the LDS doctrine is a bit animistic in that it teaches that everything was created spiritually before it was created physically.

Moses Chapter 3, verse 5:

"And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;"

Glenn

[ShawFanX]

I think ShawFanX is taking the everything spiritual a little to far.

Not at all:

There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes. (D&C 131:7)

If all spirit is matter, it must be the case that all matter is spirit, unless there is some class of matter that is not. The question is whether there is such a class.

Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created. (D&C 29:34) This would appear to indicate that, for God, nothing, including matter, force, element, or the relations between them, is in any real sense, non-spirit.

"Matter" is a term we use to designate a dense or grosser form of "spirit," which would appear to be a broad term denoting anything that exits, but not, let it be said, denoting its spiritual state, in another sense.

However, I would say that the LDS doctrine is a bit animistic in that it teaches that everything was created spiritually before it was created physically.

That's not animism. Animism is the idea that all phenomena in the universe, including rocks, mountains, rivers, trees and vegetable life, the Sun, and the universe itself, contain a soul or indwelling spiritual essence, and are in some sense, alive. The doctrine of preexistence simply states that all life preexists its physical manifestation in the earth sphere, and that the intelligence at the core of that life, is, ultimately, eternal.

Edited July 15, 2012 by ShawFanX

[CV75]

All Things Bear Record of Christ?!

Yes, they certainly do, and D&C 88 expounds upon this theme.