All Things In Likeness Of Christ? Really?!?

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I'm not ignoring it. All those 'bad' things I see as a further record of God's teaching about the necessity of opposition.

The verse you quoted in the OP doesn't say, as you have claimed, that all things have a likeness in Christ, it says that all things have their likeness, which seems to imply that all things have something in common-which, as the verse goes on to explain, is that they all bear record of Christ.

There is really no reason for me to address your arguement because i don't think it actually addresses what the verse says, but instead is arguing against a misguided interpretation.

Because i don't agree with your interpretation, I don't find your arguments very convincing.

The verse plainly says "All things are made to bear record of me." Nature red in tooth and claw....... that's the reality of nature which God created.

[bluebell]

How do all those insects testify to Gospel truths?! Are you serious here? How do they testify of Jesus being born a Virgin? The resurrection? Paul having a vision on Damascus Road? I mean seriously here. Just how do insects testify to the Gospel truths? I can certainly see how they testify to scientific truths, but Gospel truths? How do mosquitos testify of prophets having visions? Honestly.

I didn't say that insects testify of every gospel truth. Neither did I say that they testify of the gospel truths.

I said simply that they testify of gospel truths.

Insects testify, as i said before, that small and simple things can bring about great things. They can also testify of the truth about the necessity of opposition in life.

You probably wouldn't be so exasperated with my posts if you took the time to try to actually understand what i am saying rather than making assumptions.

[daz2]

All the cells in my body are a part and a reflection of me, as are the bacteria (the microbiome) which are part of or at least reside in my human body and perform important functions. Perhaps the digesting food in my digestive tract and the air in my lungs are a part of my body. Some of those cells or bacteria perform distasteful, ugly or even disgusting tasks. Yet, in an important sense, all those parts (good, bad or indifferent) are a reflection of me, indeed a vital part of me.

Theologically, I have a sort of panentheist view of God. All that exists is organized by God; in that sense the whole universe is an extended metaphysical "body of God". In a sense, I too have an extended metaphysical body-- house, yard, car, job--which are a reflection and in a sense "bear testimony" of me. That includes all of my extended metaphysical self--including the sewer lines in my home, the garbage cans and disposal, garden weeds, etc . . . .

One cannot know me just by knowing the details of my physical body--the cells, bacteria, functionality of organs. To know me, one most also understand the environment, how I interrelate with it and with others.

In the same way, I don't think I can understand God without striving to understand the universe, all aspects, good, bad, ugly or indifferent.

Because Mormonism (which is my worldview) embraces all truth and all good, and because of my quasi-panentheist or phenomenological view of God, I think that when we as humans study and learn about anything (sciences, arts, languages, religions, philosophy, etc . . .), we are learning about and studying about God. In that sense I agree with Moses 6:63

[bluebell]

You are separating God and Science. They are not separable except by man made scientific rules. But in reality, science is an attempt to understand God, no matter how hard science wants to ignore it.

That's a really great way to put science actually.

If God does exist, then science really and truly is just an attempt to understand the truths of a universe created and managed by God.

[bluebell]

This reminds me of the autobiographical story of Corrie Ten Boom in "The Hiding Place." She and her sister felt God's hand in the fleas that infested the concentration camp barracks they were staying in. Because of the fleas, they were able to read and study the Bible without the guards coming in and stopping them. Here's someone's very short commentary along with another story about a miracle involving mosquitoes:

http://wap.bible.org...ration/thankful

That is one of my favorite books! I loved how they saw the work of God in fleas.

[happy]

That's a really great way to put science actually.

If God does exist, then science really and truly is just an attempt to understand the truths of a universe created and managed by God.

At least someone gets my comment. I can not pocket science and religion into two separate universes. And for me, God trumps science.

[bluebell]

The verse plainly says "All things are made to bear record of me." Nature red in tooth and claw....... that's the reality of nature which God created.

Yes, exactly.

[daz2]

"And for me, God trumps science."

What does this mean? Do you mean that God is not bound by the laws of the universe? Do you means that statements by God's prophets describing the material universe have greater truth value then what dispassionate study of the universe might demonstrate? Should scientists run their proposed findings by prophets? Or should scientists take "revealed truth" into accounts when making and testing hypotheses?

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I didn't say that insects testify of every gospel truth. Neither did I say that they testify of the gospel truths.

I said simply that they testify of gospel truths.

Insects testify, as i said before, that small and simple things can bring about great things. They can also testify of the truth about the necessity of opposition in life.

You probably wouldn't be so exasperated with my posts if you took the time to try to actually understand what i am saying rather than making assumptions.

Anyone can simply make up any kind of ad hoc interpretation and say see? THAT testifies of Gospel truths. It is just hollow. Sorry. Perhaps it does help some, and that's wonderful for them. I simply don't see it ....... I'm not going to argue against those who wish to see it, that's fine. But it's just not convincing to me. It's all too handy and convenient.

[bluebell]

Anyone can simply make up any kind of ad hoc interpretation and say see? THAT testifies of Gospel truths. It is just hollow. Sorry. Perhaps it does help some, and that's wonderful for them. I simply don't see it ....... I'm not going to argue against those who wish to see it, that's fine. But it's just not convincing to me. It's all too handy and convenient.

I'm really fine that you don't see it.

Just be prepared to be fine that i feel the exact same way about the OP as you feel about my response to it.

[jwhitlock]

Anyone can simply make up any kind of ad hoc interpretation and say see? THAT testifies of Gospel truths. It is just hollow. Sorry. Perhaps it does help some, and that's wonderful for them. I simply don't see it ....... I'm not going to argue against those who wish to see it, that's fine. But it's just not convincing to me. It's all too handy and convenient.

There's positive testimony, and there's negative testimony.

To me, all the things that you have described that are so repugnant about mortality are there to drive me more surely to Christ. I don't want to be here. This isn't the way things are supposed to be. This temporal existence was set up for all things to make sure - for those who are looking - that we look back to Christ and the presence of God, and set our desires there, rather than dwelling on what is here.

If there were only positive things to testify of Christ here, we might think that this temporal existence would be acceptable as an end in itself. It isn't.

Mosquitoes and maggots and horrible diseases and anything else you can think up testify of Christ because they drive me to Him because of their repugnance. They serve their purpose as the scripture states.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I'm really fine that you don't see it.

Just be prepared to be fine that i feel the exact same way about the OP as you feel about my response to it.

No problem.....that's what makes for great and interesting discussions.....

[Kerry A. Shirts]

There's positive testimony, and there's negative testimony.

To me, all the things that you have described that are so repugnant about mortality are there to drive me more surely to Christ. I don't want to be here. This isn't the way things are supposed to be. This temporal existence was set up for all things to make sure - for those who are looking - that we look back to Christ and the presence of God, and set our desires there, rather than dwelling on what is here.

If there were only positive things to testify of Christ here, we might think that this temporal existence would be acceptable as an end in itself. It isn't.

Mosquitoes and maggots and horrible diseases and anything else you can think up testify of Christ because they drive me to Him because of their repugnance. They serve their purpose as the scripture states.

Yes, that is a religious interpretation........ I understand........

[happy]

"And for me, God trumps science."

What does this mean? Do you mean that God is not bound by the laws of the universe? Do you means that statements by God's prophets describing the material universe have greater truth value then what dispassionate study of the universe might demonstrate? Should scientists run their proposed findings by prophets? Or should scientists take "revealed truth" into accounts when making and testing hypotheses?

I personally don't care what conclusions science comes to or how they come to them. I can't do anything about it or anything with it. I don't need science to confirm my vision of how the world works. If science is right, I am going to die with a magical fantasy in my head and won't be all the worse for it.

[SamIam]

Yes, your humor reminded me of when I left out the "r" in my last name in the 4th grade... the teacher called out our names as she was handing back our assignments and rather loudly called mine "Kerry Shits!" I was SOOOOOOO embarrassed I started to cry! And EVERYONE was laughing like crazy and she thought I did that deliberately so I got sent to the principal's Office! That was a horrible day. And you know...... to this day, I still hear about that from a couple of the people who were in that class with me! Ah for good memories and chuckles now eh?

I hope this was an event you have resolved and it no longer elicits hard feelings in you - That way I can honestly say I'm laughing with you - I haven't laughed so well in a few. I can't even reread it it for the loud laughter it solicits...too funny.

[happy]

Anyone can simply make up any kind of ad hoc interpretation and say see? THAT testifies of Gospel truths. It is just hollow. Sorry. Perhaps it does help some, and that's wonderful for them. I simply don't see it ....... I'm not going to argue against those who wish to see it, that's fine. But it's just not convincing to me. It's all too handy and convenient.

Ok. You convinced me. Religion is dumb, science is awesome. I'll send my letter of resignation tomorrow.

[SamIam]

LOL! Yes, I figured that was all you had to refute the observations is make fun of my name......lessee.......what do they call that? Bankrupt. Er is that ad hominim. Either way, thanks!

As for any commentary I might make, I genuinely feel that you understand my perspective. If not it remains here . There is no need to add any further effort to counter such as you have initiated in the OP but what I have shared already at the link above.

[tyler90az]

Moses 6:63

“63 And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me.

That verse seem to just be a fancy way of saying all things were created by Christ. The likeness part just means all things are intelligence.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Ok. You convinced me. Religion is dumb, science is awesome. I'll send my letter of resignation tomorrow.

Hey religion has in every single instance of scientific advances in real knowledge always given ground to it. I know of no singular piece of knowledge where science has told religion "woops, we are wrong, and you are right, so we will follow your lead at the truth." There is NONE. Science doesn't even need to acknowledge religion, it is always religion begging science for its blessing so as to give it a more realistic and powerful legitimacy. Interesting since religion screams faith is stronger, but she sure lusts after the prestige of science with its actual knowledge. Science has the track record. All one has to do is open your eyes and look around. The evidence that science works is in literally EVERY HOME in America and abroad in the world, and out in the cities with every single building, car, dam on rivers, telephone poles with those trillions of miles of wire, etc. Copier machines and faxes in the office, ipads, cell phones, and elevators. Every single invention made is proof science such as relativity, quantum physics, evolution, chemistry, physics, and astronomy are working and alive and very astonishingly healthy and well in our lives.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

As for any commentary I might make, I genuinely feel that you understand my perspective. If not it remains here . There is no need to add any further effort to counter such as you have initiated in the OP but what I have shared already at the link above.

Yes, I understand that is your belief......and I respect that.

[tyler90az]

Kerry you seem to not understand having a spiritual component to your life.

[Storm Rider]

Hey religion has in every single instance of scientific advances in real knowledge always given ground to it. I know of no singular piece of knowledge where science has told religion "woops, we are wrong, and you are right, so we will follow your lead at the truth." There is NONE. Science doesn't even need to acknowledge religion, it is always religion begging science for its blessing so as to give it a more realistic and powerful legitimacy. Interesting since religion screams faith is stronger, but she sure lusts after the prestige of science with its actual knowledge. Science has the track record. All one has to do is open your eyes and look around. The evidence that science works is in literally EVERY HOME in America and abroad in the world, and out in the cities with every single building, car, dam on rivers, telephone poles with those trillions of miles of wire, etc. Copier machines and faxes in the office, ipads, cell phones, and elevators. Every single invention made is proof science such as relativity, quantum physics, evolution, chemistry, physics, and astronomy are working and alive and very astonishingly healthy and well in our lives.

May that square box you have built work well for you until you are dead, then it may not work so well. I suppose you may change your mind when science tells you there is life after death. That arm of flesh is mighty, has all answers, is never wrong, and is the source of all truth. Yeah, I have heard that before. Continued good luck to you.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Kerry you seem to not understand having a spiritual component to your life.

Define "spiritual." What is it? Is there any evidence it is real? I'm just asking, not doubting.....I think we need to explore it so we understand rather in solid terms instead of some ethereal thinking.....

[Kerry A. Shirts]

May that square box you have built work well for you until you are dead, then it may not work so well. I suppose you may change your mind when science tells you there is life after death. That arm of flesh is mighty, has all answers, is never wrong, and is the source of all truth. Yeah, I have heard that before. Continued good luck to you.

I understand these feelings, really I do. I have them as well. I am simply stating the honestly obvious. Once it "pops" and one "gets it," it is truly astounding and has serious ramifications.....

[Storm Rider]

I understand these feelings, really I do. I have them as well. I am simply stating the honestly obvious. Once it "pops" and one "gets it," it is truly astounding and has serious ramifications.....

You state the honestly obvious, but you approach it from a very narrow perspective. For someone who knows better I question the tactic, its purpose, and its benefit. Your desire to shock may work with those who have never considered, but for one that has already walked the path, your comments are anything but helpful.

Reason does not exist by itself; when it does, its wages are death. It is really that simple. Constantly banging the drum of reason, without any appeal to faith, is a role that is diametrically opposed to a living a life of faith and discipleship.