All Things In Likeness Of Christ? Really?!?

[Kerry A. Shirts]

All Things Bear Record of Christ?!

By Kerry A. Shirts

An LDS acquaintance of mine here on these boards and I were discussing the significance and importance of science and religion, faith and knowledge. He said this to me after quoting the Pearl of Great Price:

Moses 6:63

“63 And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me.

He then noted:

“Many years ago I accepted this scripture as a foundation of my testimony. I have accepted and tested it and it is true. Over the years I have developed my understandings of all things temporal and spiritual in accordance with this principle. Following the insight of scriptures and counsel of prophets , I seek to find the likeness of my God and my Savior in all things both in heaven and Earth. If the scriptures are true to you then it should remind you of how it is that one can see God and his creations as I have done.”

Now I (Kerry) would propose this: Unfortunately, one can only accept this without having thought on it much. Allow me to explain please. I think what happens is that we are so over-awed by scripture sometimes that we stop thinking through the ramifications of what is said. A little reflection shows us the utter absurdity of the above philosophy of accepting this on face value.

Consider if you will Mosquitos. Blood sucking diseases carrying very ugly bugs. This is in likeness of Christ? Really? Now granted, the mosquito Aedes albopictus has actually mutated its parts of its biting apparatus into another pair of legs, so that they cannot penetrate our skin because they lack the tactile and chemosensory hairs that locate the right spot, but this is a likeness of Christ? So do we say that mutated species are a likeness of a mutating Christ or something?

What about say stink beetles? Of all the species on earth, there are more beetles than all other species combined! This surely must be significant to the Creator as a likeness of Christ. The stink beetle emits horrid smells out of its butt when threatened, while its cousin the dung beetle rolls around poop in order to have something to lays its eggs in. So do we conclude from a likeness of Christ that he emits horrible smells out of his butt, rolls around feces of others in order to lay eggs?! What possibly kind of likeness can beetles have to Christ? Can we say Christ stinks because this is a likeness of the beetle? Is Christ in similitude of a dirty black little hairy legged bug that smells both because of bodily emissions and its working all day in crap?

Consider the fly. Here we have a dirty poop hopping insect which lands on people, spreading dreadful diseases that can and has killed millions, stings them, bites them, tortures innocent cattle, horses, pigs, and all manner of animal farms, yea even unto the nethermost parts of the earth. Here we have a pest which settles upon the eyes, nose, ears, neck, face, and skin of a poor sick, starving child, gnawing, pestering and stinging, sparing no creature, making life a complete misery, good for nothing except swatting and getting them out of the house and our lives, especially at picnics! No matter that desperate mothers trying to keep their starving to death child safe, and shooing the damndable things away, they relentless pursue their prey all through the long hot days of pure unrelenting torture. In what possible manner is this thing a likeness of Christ?! It is palpably absurd to pretend there is any likeness here, except exercising the most awful mental gymnastics of insanity in order to try to find a likeness. Who in the name of sanity would even want to?

Consider the ichneumonidae wasp whose remarkable “design” has it having the ability to lay eggs inside a caterpillar. The newly hatched larvae parasites live inside the caterpillar, consuming its organs while it is alive. It eats the internal organs in a specific order which keeps their host caterpillar alive for as long as possible (the insect version of Sushi?!). The parasite are born knowing how to do this. They come into the world with a genetically programmed instinct to consume the internal organs of its host caterpillar in a specific order. So are we then, in order to convince others of the aptness and truth of the scripture to propound that Christ is a monster insect larvae who eats his hosts from the inside out, keeping them alive for as long as possible to quench his awful thirst and hunger at their expense? Pray tell just HOW does this represent a likeness to Christ?

What of the cat which tortures the mouse for apparently the pure fun of it for hours on end? It obvious can kill the poor critter anytime it likes, but instead, it claws and punches, throws the mice high up in the air watching them thud back to the earth, clawing them painfully hurting and causing them to bleed. Pray tell what kind of theological likeness to Christ can we gain from this natural occurrence?

And about the Cosmos after all, pray tell, what to think of black holes which suck absolutely everything, including light, information, etc. into it, emitting nothing back out? It is a bottomless pit of hunger devouring and utterly destroying everything it absorbs. Is THIS a good likeness of Christ to try and show?

What of Neutron stars which rapidly shrink because of the collapsing gravititational pull and then suddenly explode violently scattering the goods of what the planet was made of over the vast eons of spacetime? Is the likeness here supposed to be of a Christ who violently throws a temper tantrum or something and literally explodes his guts and brains all over the place?!

And further, what about the 2^nd Law of Thermodynamics? Everything runs down. The cosmos itself is constantly on the move, and constantly changing. Is THIS a proper likeness of Christ, ever changing with no finality of form or teaching or morals in any manner? No stability, no constant, but only change, and that inexorably downward into uselessness as the 2^nd law proves?!

What of radioactivity of atomic substances? Here for no apparent reasons and with no fore warnings all the sudden part of it simply flies off into space. And some of these substances such as Uranium, Cesium and Plutonium are seriously deadly! They KILL. What kind of likeness are we supposed to make with this? Christ losing parts of himself for any reason at any time and those parts killing someone or something?

What of extinct dinosaurs? Virtually millions of species dead. Gone, no more to be alive, dead for umpteen millions of years. What kind of likeness to Christ can we possibly draw from this stuff “under the earth”? Do bones of dead dino skulls have a likeness that we now can conclude that God is a mere bonehead like his likenesses the dinosaurs?!

What of monkeys and apes? We know thanks to evolution that our genes are 98% related to monkeys, and that we all had a common ancestor somewhere way back there in time. So the likeness to Christ would be like what, that he “monkeys” around with salvation or something? Or does he just go “ape” when we disobey?

Germs anyone? Micro-organisms?, parasites? Mammals, insects, chordata? How can everything be in a likeness both big and small without viral contradiction and problems? If absolutely everything is a likeness, is Christ then just simply everything? What possible kind of being could that end up being? What are all the legs, antennae, internal organs, eyes, tongues, tails, toenails, stripes, spots, smoothness, roughness, scales, hair, sex organs, bones, flesh, blood, nerves, liquids, solids, urine, and feces supposed to be telling us about any likeness of Christ?!? Do all the obvious contradictions prove the likeness to Christ only proves he is merely one big contradiction?

And since mankind is here, and we have ideas, and the scriptures says ALL things are a likeness, what about concepts or ideas? Aren’t these spiritual? Or are they physical since they are generated from physical brains? What does spiritually mean anyway? If just mental ideas, do ideas of atheism have any likeness to Christ? The verse is so vague and overarching broad as to be literally useless to take literal. What about evil? Is THAT also a likeness of Christ?

With just a brief amount of reflection on these things we already find truly stunning and enormous problems of literally accepting that poetic verse of scripture which I suppose is attempting to give us some kind of majesty of God or something. But on reflection, if taken literally, it becomes a complete insult and cause nothing but consternation to a thoughtful person.

[happy]

I feel as if you are over thinking it?

[ANACO]

Hey Kerry, the Savior had to put up with wagging heads and mocking tongues. Even while he was hanging on the cross.

Think it through, then sleep on it. In the morning when you awake, meditate upon the resurrection.

[bluebell]

I feel as if you are over thinking it?

I'm thinking you are right about the oOP overthinking.

To me, mosquitoes, for example, bear record of God because they witness how small and simple things can achieve something great, (without mosquitoes and other insects like them filling a HUGE place on the food chain, millions of other species wouldn't exist, which would then impact millions of other species, etc., etc.). Such insects testify of gospel of truths through their very existence.

I think the OP's friend is very wise to recognize how everything really can testfy of Christ and bear record of His hand in the universe.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I feel as if you are over thinking it?

Not at all. I barely gave it a thought and found the interpretation of that verse to be so overly wrong I just had to write my thoughts down. I think that verse is over proving what it is intending, without question.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I'm thinking you are right about the oOP overthinking.

To me, mosquitoes, for example, bear record of God because they witness how small and simple things can achieve something great, (without mosquitoes and other insects like them filling a HUGE place on the food chain, millions of other species wouldn't exist, which would then impact millions of other species, etc., etc.). Such insects testify of gospel of truths through their very existence.

I think the OP's friend is very wise to recognize how everything really can testfy of Christ and bear record of His hand in the universe.

Why ignore the fact that mosquitos spread disease, kill and make sick, and are dangerous to health? See, by picking and choosing one can prove anything. My contention and arguments still stand. And what about the flies, viruses, radioactive decay. Does not the verse say ALL THINGS? So it is entirely proper to look at and thinks on ALL THINGS in the entire universe, yes? SO what about all the other areas I posted about? Just HOW do those show a likeness to Christ?

[happy]

I agree with bluebell. Each species has a purpose. Extinct dinosaurs made oil possible. Each thing has a purpose, no matter how small or how large. That is a perfect gospel principle.

[happy]

Why ignore the fact that mosquitos spread disease, kill and make sick, and are dangerous to health? See, by picking and choosing one can prove anything. My contention and arguments still stand. And what about the flies, viruses, radioactive decay. Does not the verse say ALL THINGS? So it is entirely proper to look at and thinks on ALL THINGS in the entire universe, yes? SO what about all the other areas I posted about? Just HOW do those show a likeness to Christ?

http://www.ehow.com/info_8365881_purposes-do-mosquitoes-serve-ecosystems.html

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I'm thinking you are right about the oOP overthinking.

To me, mosquitoes, for example, bear record of God because they witness how small and simple things can achieve something great, (without mosquitoes and other insects like them filling a HUGE place on the food chain, millions of other species wouldn't exist, which would then impact millions of other species, etc., etc.). Such insects testify of gospel of truths through their very existence.

I think the OP's friend is very wise to recognize how everything really can testfy of Christ and bear record of His hand in the universe.

How do all those insects testify to Gospel truths?! Are you serious here? How do they testify of Jesus being born a Virgin? The resurrection? Paul having a vision on Damascus Road? I mean seriously here. Just how do insects testify to the Gospel truths? I can certainly see how they testify to scientific truths, but Gospel truths? How do mosquitos testify of prophets having visions? Honestly.

[happy]

You are separating God and Science. They are not separable except by man made scientific rules. But in reality, science is an attempt to understand God, no matter how hard science wants to ignore it.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

You are separating God and Science. They are not separable except by man made scientific rules. But in reality, science is an attempt to understand God, no matter how hard science wants to ignore it.

That's hilarious! Thanks for making my day!

[Kerry A. Shirts]

You are separating God and Science. They are not separable except by man made scientific rules. But in reality, science is an attempt to understand God, no matter how hard science wants to ignore it.

Science is NOT an attempt to understand God. Where on earth do you find this kind of stuff from man? I can't even make this kind of thinking up........ this is utterly incredible. Pray tell WHICH scientists are saying this? Please, i would really like to find out who...... your misunderstanding of science is just so off base I honestly don't know how to even respond to it. Sorry.

[SamIam]

What about say stink beetles? Of all the species on earth, there are more beetles than all other species combined! This surely must be significant to the Creator.... The stink beetle emits horrid smells out of its butt when threatened, while its cousin the dung beetle rolls around poop in order to have something to lays its eggs in. So do we conclude ... that he emits horrible smells out of his butt, rolls around feces of others in order to lay eggs?! What possibly kind of likeness can beetles have... Can we say stinks because this is a likeness of the beetle...in similitude of a dirty black little hairy legged bug that smells both because of bodily emissions and its working all day in crap?

Kerry - your LDS acquaintance seems very wise, however for what is is worth perhaps he may also realize that for all of this sophistry you have dished up here, there are some things spoken that bear resemblance to their speaker. Considering the likeness of the quote above, methinks there may be one too many R's in your last name.

Edited July 15, 2012 by SamIam

[happy]

Science is NOT an attempt to understand God. Where on earth do you find this kind of stuff from man? I can't even make this kind of thinking up........ this is utterly incredible. Pray tell WHICH scientists are saying this? Please, i would really like to find out who...... your misunderstanding of science is just so off base I honestly don't know how to even respond to it. Sorry.

You have a lot of hostility. I don't think you really read what i said. Sorry if I seem dumb to you.

[Evangeline]

I'm thinking you are right about the oOP overthinking.

To me, mosquitoes, for example, bear record of God because they witness how small and simple things can achieve something great, (without mosquitoes and other insects like them filling a HUGE place on the food chain, millions of other species wouldn't exist, which would then impact millions of other species, etc., etc.). Such insects testify of gospel of truths through their very existence.

I think the OP's friend is very wise to recognize how everything really can testfy of Christ and bear record of His hand in the universe.

This reminds me of the autobiographical story of Corrie Ten Boom in "The Hiding Place." She and her sister felt God's hand in the fleas that infested the concentration camp barracks they were staying in. Because of the fleas, they were able to read and study the Bible without the guards coming in and stopping them. Here's someone's very short commentary along with another story about a miracle involving mosquitoes:

http://wap.bible.org/illustration/thankful

Edited July 15, 2012 by Evangeline

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Kerry - your LDS acquaintance seems very wise, however for what is is worth perhaps he may also realize that for all of this sophistry you have dished up here, there are some things spoken that bear resemblance to their speaker. Considering the likeness of the quote above, methinks there may be one too many R's in your last name.

LOL! Yes, I figured that was all you had to refute the observations is make fun of my name......lessee.......what do they call that? Bankrupt. Er is that ad hominim. Either way, thanks!

[Kerry A. Shirts]

You have a lot of hostility. I don't think you really read what i said. Sorry if I seem dumb to you.

No, no, no.....you don't seem dumb to me, not at all. Naive certainly, but that is not dumb. My honest suggestion, without guile. Truly, read what scientists are actually doing instead of simply saying what you think or wish they are doing.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Kerry - your LDS acquaintance seems very wise, however for what is is worth perhaps he may also realize that for all of this sophistry you have dished up here, there are some things spoken that bear resemblance to their speaker. Considering the likeness of the quote above, methinks there may be one too many R's in your last name.

Self certification, as Nibley noted long ago, is simply the WORSE way to go about it............ perhaps more reading on your part is seriously needed? I think my Mormon friend is desperate, for what it's worth. And I know of no singular LDS or NON-LDS astronomer who would vouch for that kind of fuzzy thinking. I sincerely do not know of a one. Do you?

[happy]

No, no, no.....you don't seem dumb to me, not at all. Naive certainly, but that is not dumb. My honest suggestion, without guile. Truly, read what scientists are actually doing instead of simply saying what you think or wish they are doing.

Naive? Again, it helps if you turn down your hostility knob down and read what I said. I did not say it is the position of scientists that they are trying to understand God. If you took the time to read my comment, I said quite the opposite. But if there is a God, then everything that science is uncovering is connected to a world God created. So God and Science are from a believer's standpoint, inseparable. I don't know your affiliation, but I assume you are former LDS? If so, then it seems a remarkable pattern that science completely replaces faith for almost all former Mormons, which is quite interesting, I might add.

(If my assumption is off base, I apologize in advance.)

[SamIam]

LOL! Yes, I figured that was all you had to refute the observations is make fun of my name......lessee.......what do they call that? Bankrupt. Er is that ad hominim. Either way, thanks!

“A person without a sense of humor is like a wagon without springs. It's jolted by every pebble on the road.” Henry Ward Beecher (Liberal US Congregational minister, 1813-1887)

Edited July 15, 2012 by SamIam

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Naive? Again, it helps if you turn down your hostility knob down and read what I said. I did not say it is the position of scientists that they are trying to understand God. If you took the time to read my comment, I said quite the opposite. But if there is a God, then everything that science is uncovering is connected to a world God created. So God and Science are from a believer's standpoint, inseparable. I don't know your affiliation, but I assume you are former LDS? If so, then it seems a remarkable pattern that science completely replaces faith for almost all former Mormons, which is quite interesting, I might add.

(If my assumption is off base, I apologize in advance.)

I'm sorry I misunderstood what you wrote. It seemed to me you actually said scientists are looking for God. They have no desire to even do religion. They are using evidence for hypotheses to come up with facts such as relativity, quantum physics, gravity, etc., learning how the universe works by natural law. They do not deliberately seek out God, they can't put that hypotheses into the equation, it violates Occam's Razor and the Law of Parsimony.

[happy]

"But in reality, science is an attempt to understand God, no matter how hard science wants to ignore it"

Sorry, how could I have written this sentence better? I am always aiming to improve.

[bluebell]

Why ignore the fact that mosquitos spread disease, kill and make sick, and are dangerous to health?

I'm not ignoring it. All those 'bad' things I see as a further record of God's teaching about the necessity of opposition.

See, by picking and choosing one can prove anything. My contention and arguments still stand. And what about the flies, viruses, radioactive decay. Does not the verse say ALL THINGS? So it is entirely proper to look at and thinks on ALL THINGS in the entire universe, yes? SO what about all the other areas I posted about? Just HOW do those show a likeness to Christ?

The verse you quoted in the OP doesn't say, as you have claimed, that all things have a likeness in Christ, it says that all things have their likeness, which seems to imply that all things have something in common-which, as the verse goes on to explain, is that they all bear record of Christ.

There is really no reason for me to address your arguement because i don't think it actually addresses what the verse says, but instead is arguing against a misguided interpretation.

Because i don't agree with your interpretation, I don't find your arguments very convincing.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

“A person without a sense of humor is like a wagon without springs. It's jolted by every pebble on the road.” Henry Ward Beecher quotes (Liberal US Congregational minister, 1813-1887)

Yes, your humor reminded me of when I left out the "r" in my last name in the 4th grade... the teacher called out our names as she was handing back our assignments and rather loudly called mine "Kerry Shits!" I was SOOOOOOO embarrassed I started to cry! And EVERYONE was laughing like crazy and she thought I did that deliberately so I got sent to the principal's Office! That was a horrible day. And you know...... to this day, I still hear about that from a couple of the people who were in that class with me! Ah for good memories and chuckles now eh?

[Kerry A. Shirts]

"But in reality, science is an attempt to understand God, no matter how hard science wants to ignore it"

Sorry, how could I have written this sentence better? I am always aiming to improve.

And that...... lovely one........ is exactly why you WILL improve. NEVER lose THAT particular attitude. God is proud of us when we continue to improve (as if I know what God really thinks, but hey, ya gotta admit, it sounds good yes? GRIN!)

Well, from our religious view point perhaps we want to think that the scientists are looking to verify God, but they don't deliberately set out to do that. Not so far as I understand, although, now then, on second thought about this, there are, indeed, individual scientists who write books about it, so......... I need to be careful about dogmatically saying NO scientists do this. I think perhaps if I said as a class, science is not out to discover or find or learn about God. They deal with the natural, not the supernatural..... hope that helps.