This Is Why We Need Science Folks

[Tacenda]

God

God loved all the things he created

God loved the animals, birds, and fish

God loved the planet he put them on

God held a special affection for the people he made

God declared that his favorite creation (the people) would be in charge of all the rest

God set up the rules

God said what should be right and wrong

God saw that some of the people became hardened

God wrote important things down so that it wouldn't be difficult for the people to remember

God allowed time to go by, for many things to happen

God gave time for his words to be remembered and used correctly

God sometimes became angry and destroyed the things he loved

God let the people he loved most (the ones who listened and who were not hardened) have certain privileges

God's time passed (according to God's perception of time)

God's mom called him to come to dinner

God pulled apart his play dough, put it all back in the containers, and washed his hands

The above is a "piece" written by a poster on another board. It has had a profound effect on my thoughts about God. Especially when I think of the suffering and disasters that have occurred on earth and often how it drives people to the position of athiesm. This person may or may not believe, the last two lines make me wonder, not sure. But when I read it, it helps me put into perspective that God can and does still exist.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Tacenda

[SamIam]

...

Edited July 14, 2012 by SamIam

[Calm]

The above is a "piece" written by a poster on another board. It has had a profound effect on my thoughts about God. Especially when I think of the suffering and disasters that have occurred on earth and often how it drives people to the position of athiesm. This person may or may not believe, the last two lines make me wonder, not sure. But when I read it, it helps me put into perspective that God can and does still exist.

Honestly, this piece does absolutely nothing for me. The idea that we are simply God's playthings, no matter how much he loves us, completely misses the story written in the scriptures and in the world and what can be written in the heart.

And the idea that there is no God because no superior being would create such a mess ignores the evidence of beauty and order and thought that I see in the world and at this point have found no other explanation for.

Edited July 14, 2012 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

Honestly, this piece does absolutely nothing for me. The idea that we are simply God's playthings, no matter how much he loves us, completely misses the story written in the scriptures and in the world and what can be written in the heart.

And the idea that there is no God because no superior being would create such a mess ignores the evidence of beauty and order and thought that I see in the world and at this point have found no other explanation for.

I guess I read it from a different angle. The thought that someone can pray and get help, say when trying to find something of value they've lost (I did this when I lost my wedding ring) and thinking they get an answer vs someone that prays for their life to be saved from famon or disaster but doesn't get any divine intervention. Since this is so strikingly off balance to me the only way I can see anything fair in it, is to think that God exists and loves us but we are here to fend for ourselves or do the work. He has laid the foundation, we are to build on it. You do hear of miracles, but to me it seems out of whack for some to receive and others not. So it's the only way I can see God as loving.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Tacenda

[Libs]

Knowledge is absolutely one of the things we are here to gain. However the question is seldom understood as to knowledge of what? So we run off picking our pet interests and follow our natural tendencies to just be ourselves and we deceive ourselves into thinking that we are fulfilling the edict of growing in knowledge simply because we can illustrate a sense of knowing about something.

The real question is what knowledge is it that we should seek. The basic foundational theological principles are centered on some very intriguing, quite against the natural tendencies of most and decidedly lacking in intellectually stimulating capacity. Many intellectuals often fail to grasp their superior requirement over the "knowing" of things more tangible. They are overlooked as the goals of simpletons, the naive and childish. The most important knowledge is first knowledge of Christ. That is why I posted this reminder from Moses 6.

The more venues you can find that reflect aspects of Christ and who he is and how he thinks, what he values, what pleases him, what causes him pain; these things should be the foundation of all searching for knowledge. Since if you do not understand things from his perspective then you are missing the knowledge that saves.

The verses preceding this one in Moses are about the earth suffering and Enoch’s expanding comprehension of love for all of God’s creations. Not just man, but the earth that weeps over her children and all of the heavens that languish in pure sorrow and genuine suffering for both the events that lead to the flood and the subsequent event that redeems all of God’s creation in the Atonement. However, this verse above caused me to wonder what about man, and about all of creation is so important, so valuable that Christ would plead, would beg, would be willing to suffer horrible pain that according to the requirements of heaven was necessary to redeem all of it. The planets, the suns, mankind, all of God’s creation required him to take on this role. Why?

So, this is the only knowledge that gives any efficacy to science, to religion, to philosophy, to why you get up in the morning. The only knowledge that matters is to possess the knowledge of why Christ would choose to die for you and me and suns and moons and stars and in fact all creation. Then we look at what the emphasis of what other knowledge it is that we should actually be seeking, once we know of Christ, according to the scriptures – the basic foundational theological principles I mentioned earlier - the knowledge I mentioned before that is undermined and underappreciated by those who miscomprehend what it is about creation that makes knowing important. The knowledge we should be seeking to acquire is love of all creation the pure love of Christ – this is what drove him to plead in all creations behalf. The knowledge of justice – this is what drives decisions of judgment that Christ will render. The knowledge of mercy, which is your and I’s greatest hope and which Christ overwhelmingly wants to offer to all if they will simply obey. The knowledge of appropriate anger, for which cause he must chastise some who seek to destroy the greater good. The knowledge of patience, longsuffering, meekness, boldness, and all other traits as they apply to Jesus Christ is the knowledge we seek. So any wholesome venue in which we seek to explore and increase our understanding and knowledge can be beneficial but really it is only of worth when Christ is the center of our search.

Now the point is I began to study the cosmos from this perspective. I wanted to feel of the unity of creation that would cause the heavens to sorrow and Christ to be willing to give up his mortal life to redeem that about which Enoch originally ignorantly asked, “How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains? I wanted to feel internally the answer to that question and the question of why it mattered to Christ to do this thing.

You ask, “Isn't that one of the reasons we were sent here..to gain knowledge and wisdom?” Yes, absolutely correct. But not just any knowledge will do and surely incomplete sterile knowledge that is not brought to life by infusing it with its meaning to the Savior is more vacuous and empty and of less worth in the eternal scheme of things than the dust of which worlds are made. To seek knowledge without Christ is not to be "onto something" as you put it in your question. It is to be missing it entirely.

I study planets and stars, and black holes in space only for this brief time in my life, about four months now, as I have sought this particular aspect of knowledge. Why does it matter to Christ? I can tell you that it has not been a fruitless endeavor. I have grasped more of the unity of God’s creations, the majesty of the Father and the Son than I could ever have imagined. I have felt this event as felt by Enoch,

Because of the hours and hours of effort in research, prayer and pondering, I have felt my heart swell, genuinely swell, as I have tried to grasp even the tiny bits I have been gifted and I now own. That was the knowledge I sought and while not in a fullness, it is the knowledge I am finding. I have grown to love all of creation in ways I never realized were possible. It is the most pure and beneficial reason to spend much time seeking knowledge about planets and stars and such. If Christ loves these acts of creations and the fruits thereof so much that he would die to preserve them – the knowledge I seek is to understand mans role according to his wishes and to embrace it and make it mine and then understand why the gratitude swells ever more in my heart for the knowledge of the sun and the moon and the stars and that Christ would save them all.

Yes, indeed, my friend...knowledge is what we are here to acquire.

This was well said, Sam. Thank you. It reminded me of one of my favorite scriptures..

2 Nephi 9:28-29

28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

I very much agree with you that whatever we are studying should have Christ/God as the center. Having that center does make a difference in how we see whatever it is we are learning. When I first read those verses above, I thought about myself as a young college student (I studied psychology) and remembering, actually, how very empty all of that felt, when I graduated. I went into the field of psychology, hoping to understand myself and others better, but I was agnostic verging on atheistic, at the time, and as I studied the various theories and methods (there were hundreds, probably thousands, by now) I knew, deep down that I was missing something. I didn't know what, until I read those verses, above, and broke into tears. That was one of the very profound experiences I had with the Book of Mormon (one of many). What was missing was Christ's love..and all of his attributes, you mentioned above. Once one puts all of that into the equation (especially the love, which I believe is core) it all makes more sense...and not just intellectually....the ability to sift or to see what is right or wrong/good or bad, is there (discernment). I no longer felt like I was floating aimlessly in a sea of man's theories, because I had a point of reference (Christ).

Thank you for this beautiful post.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Libs

[Libs]

I meant to add that I believe Kerry has that point of reference, as well. I think he strives to "know" rather than just have faith, and as long as Christ is the center (actually faith in Christ) all is well.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Libs

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I hate obscurantism. It is a blight. I've defended the importance of using one's brains many times on this board, but the whole science good, religion bad thing is silly.

It wouldn't be silly at all if the history of the massacres, bloodshed, hate, and criminal activity of religions through the millenia had not occurred. Is it silly that George Bush said that GOD, none other, TOLD HIM that it was important to go to Iraq in war?! Gee, why didn't God also, while he was at it, tell Bush there were no weapons of mass destruction at the same time? When people in power can simply invoke God and enforce whatever it is they WANT to do, and have an entire nation behind them supporting, then THAT IS NOT SILLY, IT IS ABSOLUTELY ***DANGEROUS*** After all Jihad is nothing less than GOD'S blessing to destroy Americans......from THAT religions' point of view. There is absolutely nothing that can be silly about 9/11 and its aftermath all thanks to religion. Religious fanatacism is disastrous......always having God to support it. HOW do we stop this? I honestly don't know EXCEPT BY BEING RATIONAL AND LOGICAL. Obviously revelations from God are not helping.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Kerry A. Shirts

[ANACO]

It wouldn't be silly at all if the history of the massacres, bloodshed, hate, and criminal activity of religions through the millenia had not occurred. Is it silly that George Bush said that GOD, none other, TOLD HIM that it was important to go to Iraq in war?! Gee, why didn't God also, while he was at it, tell Bush there were no weapons of mass destruction at the same time? When people in power can simply invoke God and enforce whatever it is they WANT to do, and have an entire nation behind them supporting, then THAT IS NOT SILLY, IT IS ABSOLUTELY ***DANGEROUS*** After all Jihad is nothing less than GOD'S blessing to destroy Americans......from THAT religions' point of view. There is absolutely nothing that can be silly about 9/11 and its aftermath all thanks to religion. Religious fanatacism is disastrous......always having God to support it. HOW do we stop this? I honestly don't know EXCEPT BY BEING RATIONAL AND LOGICAL. Obviously revelations from God are not helping.

Captain Moroni had the same problem. He went around raising the Standard of Liberty in

memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children - and saying God told him too. Silly guy. /sarcasm

[volgadon]

I guess I read it from a different angle. The thought that someone can pray and get help, say when trying to find something of value they've lost (I did this when I lost my wedding ring) and thinking they get an answer vs someone that prays for their life to be saved from famon or disaster but doesn't get any divine intervention.

This is assuming that every prayer for a lost ring results in a found ring and that every prayer for deliverance from famine or disaster is left unanswered. I very recently had a prayer negatively answered, it was for something rather more important than a lost item. I alsoknow quite a few people who survived through war and disaster, who said their prayers were answered then.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

This is one of the most astonishing sites I have ever read.......... and the comments are especially hilarious! We now have absolute PROOF that the Bible literalists are THE ENEMY of truth.

http://blogs4brownback.wordpress.com/2007/05/18/heliocentrism-is-an-atheist-doctrine/

I used to all that the Gospel according to Mark...Mark Browning that is; he was a long time work friend who thought, the earth was 6,000 years old.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I used to all that the Gospel according to Mark...Mark Browning that is; he was a long time work friend who thought, the earth was 6,000 years old.

Wow, talk about faith (ignorance) like the ancients to still believe in a 6,000 year old earth! See? Here, I propose faith = willingly IGNORING evidence to the contrary in order to continue believing one's own very false and unsupported interpretation. Knowledge is vastly superior to faith in this regard.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Wow, talk about faith (ignorance) like the ancients to still believe in a 6,000 year old earth! See? Here, I propose faith = willingly IGNORING evidence to the contrary in order to continue believing one's own very false and unsupported interpretation. Knowledge is vastly superior to faith in this regard.

Mark was (or is) unique. But faith does not "equal" ignoring facts. I hope that an attempt at humor.

[happy]

Faith is not ignorance. You can have faith in science. Is that ignorance?

[SamIam]

I used to all that the Gospel according to Mark...Mark Browning that is; he was a long time work friend who thought, the earth was 6,000 years old.

Wow, talk about faith (ignorance) like the ancients to still believe in a 6,000 year old earth! See? Here, I propose faith = willingly IGNORING evidence to the contrary in order to continue believing one's own very false and unsupported interpretation. Knowledge is vastly superior to faith in this regard.

Bruce R. McConkie:

When, during the Millennium, the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon is translated, it will give an account of life in the premortal existence; of the creation of all things; of the Fall and the Atonement and the Second Coming; of temple ordinances, in their fullness; of the ministry and mission of translated beings; of life in the spirit world, in both paradise and hell; of the kingdoms of glory to be inhabited by resurrected beings; and many such like things. As of now, the world is not ready to receive these truths. For one thing, these added doctrines will completely destroy the whole theory of organic revolution as it is now almost universally taught in the halls of academia. For another, they will set forth an entirely different concept and time

frame of the creation, both of this earth and all forms of life and of the sidereal heavens themselves, than is postulated in all the theories of men. And sadly, there are those who, if forced to make a choice at this time, would select Darwin over Deity.

(The Bible, a Sealed Book Bruce R. McConkie, BYU, 1984.)

[volgadon]

It wouldn't be silly at all if the history of the massacres, bloodshed, hate, and criminal activity of religions through the millenia had not occurred. Is it silly that George Bush said that GOD, none other, TOLD HIM that it was important to go to Iraq in war?! Gee, why didn't God also, while he was at it, tell Bush there were no weapons of mass destruction at the same time? When people in power can simply invoke God and enforce whatever it is they WANT to do, and have an entire nation behind them supporting, then THAT IS NOT SILLY, IT IS ABSOLUTELY ***DANGEROUS*** After all Jihad is nothing less than GOD'S blessing to destroy Americans......from THAT religions' point of view. There is absolutely nothing that can be silly about 9/11 and its aftermath all thanks to religion. Religious fanatacism is disastrous......always having God to support it. HOW do we stop this? I honestly don't know EXCEPT BY BEING RATIONAL AND LOGICAL. Obviously revelations from God are not helping.

I'm not talking of religious fanaticism, or deluded, or even cynical manipulation of religion in order to further political and economic goals. This was and is a powerful song.

I was also opposed to the Iraq War, even though I grew up in Israel during the Gulf War, remembering those days very well.

The kind of argument presented would be like my launching a tirade against science, based on the behaviour of the sickening Dr. Mengele. One of my classmates in elementary and middle school was the grandson of one of his twins. She survived, but her sister was murdered. One could also mention the background for "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," goverment experiments into mind-altering drugs, using mental asylum inmates as guinea pigs. Such arguments would neglect, minimise, even dismiss out of hand the positive, life-changing contributions of science. Religion inspired Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty to take an appalling murderer and bitter personal enemy and turn him to God. Religion inspired Metropolitan Andriy Sheptystky to hide Jews and to personally demand on Himmler that their destruction cease, and to harshly condemn his parishioners who engaged in violence in the name of their national idea.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Mark was (or is) unique. But faith does not "equal" ignoring facts. I hope that an attempt at humor.

If faith is believing the earth is only 6,000 years old? That is absolutely IGNORING the FACTS. Sorry to burst your bubble on that. There is absolutely NO evidence, scriptural or scientific to verify this wishful thinking of young earth creationist thinking.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I'm not talking of religious fanaticism, or deluded, or even cynical manipulation of religion in order to further political and economic goals. This was and is a powerful song.

[media=]

I was also opposed to the Iraq War, even though I grew up in Israel during the Gulf War, remembering those days very well.

The kind of argument presented would be like my launching a tirade against science, based on the behaviour of the sickening Dr. Mengele. One of my classmates in elementary and middle school was the grandson of one of his twins. She survived, but her sister was murdered. One could also mention the background for "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," goverment experiments into mind-altering drugs, using mental asylum inmates as guinea pigs. Such arguments would neglect, minimise, even dismiss out of hand the positive, life-changing contributions of science. Religion inspired Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty to take an appalling murderer and bitter personal enemy and turn him to God. Religion inspired Metropolitan Andriy Sheptystky to hide Jews and to personally demand on Himmler that their destruction cease, and to harshly condemn his parishioners who engaged in violence in the name of their national idea.

No, the difference is the religious have been carrying on like this for literal MILLENIA........ the two are not the same at all. Scientists never band together and go to war over ideas to the point of killing entire nations for not believing their hypotheses.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Faith is not ignorance. You can have faith in science. Is that ignorance?

Until the facts are in...that will come with Christ.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

No, the difference is the religious have been carrying on like this for literal MILLENIA........ the two are not the same at all. Scientists never band together and go to war over ideas to the point of killing entire nations for not believing their hypotheses.

Are suggesting scientist's are more "moral".

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Bruce R. McConkie:

This is proof positive McConkie is a false prophet. The science of evolution cannot be refuted by religion because it is fact, thoroughly established with overwhelming evidence. McConkie's speculation is just that, pure balderdash.

[Kerry A. Shirts]

Are suggesting scientist's are more "moral".

Absolutely so. The genocide and infantcide in the Old Testament and throughout history certainly do not pretend to be moral, and they were advocated by God and Israel and then Christianity. If you can make it shown to be moral, you have defeated the very best of scholars over the last several centuries. Good luck.......

[happy]

This is proof positive McConkie is a false prophet. The science of evolution cannot be refuted by religion because it is fact, thoroughly established with overwhelming evidence. McConkie's speculation is just that, pure balderdash.

We obviously have a difference of opinion on the term "theory".

[Kerry A. Shirts]

We obviously have a difference of opinion on the term "theory".

I have no doubt of it.........

[ANACO]

Absolutely so. The genocide and infantcide in the Old Testament and throughout history certainly do not pretend to be moral, and they were advocated by God and Israel and then Christianity. If you can make it shown to be moral, you have defeated the very best of scholars over the last several centuries. Good luck.......

I suppose the then Allied powers entering into WWII was considered immoral, per your definition. Volgadon hinted at Dr. Mengele and related genocide, which went over your head. The disparity of your support for the immoral theory of evolution while lambasting the character of Elder McConkie in the process as a liar and thus immoral - is further evidence of your contradictory claims.

Is was the embracing of the theory of evolution and it's extension, Social Darwinism - your beloved branch of science displayed so lovingly in concentration camps - that led to that genocide referred to by Volgadon. But Elder McConkie was a false prophet, you claim.

Kind regards

Edited July 15, 2012 by ANACO

[Kerry A. Shirts]

I suppose the then Allied powers entering into WWII was considered immoral, per your definition. Volgadon hinted at Dr. Mengele and related genocide, which went over your head. The disparity of your support for the immoral theory of evolution while lambasting the character of Elder McConkie in the process as a liar and thus immoral - is further evidence of your contradictory claims.

Kind regards

The evidence for evolution is not immoral, it is amoral. I can't help it if McConkie was wrong. I have no obligation to follow his silly interpretations ......