Joseph Smith And Polygamy

[why me]

Of the fourteen alleged descendants that were tested, only one had a good claim to being a child of Joseph Smith—and the results of that test remain inconclusive. So this doesn't really say much.

But it does say something right?

[Nevo]

Since the only child of Fanny Alger has been demonstrated not to belong to Joseph (IIRC) (so if she was pregnant she either lost it or it was adopted and any connection would be impossible to make with no record), it would seem that the only possibility for testing left is the one where the daughter was told by her mother she was Joseph's child (Josephine Lyons?)...I am supposed to be taking a nap before the grandkids arrive so I am not looking it up. My understanding that the limitations of the current testing technology do not cover her, so we will have to wait awhile before she can be ruled in or out.

But after her, I don't think any other options are left if I remember correctly Ugo's information. Anyone heard differently?

Josephine Lyon, as I noted above, has been tested and that analysis is ongoing. Perego discusses it in his article in The Persistence of Polygamy. The paternity analysis is complicated by the fact that "multiple familial relationships [are] shared by both Josephine Lyon's and Joseph Smith's descendants", so that "a lot of 'genealogical noise' is present."

The individual that was supposedly a child of Fanny Alger was not, in fact, a child of Fanny Alger. Perego only included Orrison Smith as an alleged son of Joseph Smith because "several years ago, a man surfaced who claimed to be a descendant of an Orrison Smith, son of Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger." Perego acknowledges that the man had no supporting evidence for his claim. All that is known about Orrison Smith is that he was born "somewhere in Ohio" in approximately 1834. Fanny Alger was pregnant in 1836.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Nevo

[Nevo]

Except that there was only one good claim to being his child out of all of his wives....which considering Emma had 11ish children, including being pregnant at the time of his death, seems to say quite a bit to me about the relationships even if they were completely physical.

Although I agree with Greg Smith that "there is good evidence" that at least eight of Joseph Smith's plural marriages were consummated, like you, I don't think physical intimacy was a big part of Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy. I'm merely reacting here to overblown claims by some well-meaning defenders of the faith that there is no evidence of intimacy or offspring. That's simply untrue.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Nevo

[Calm]

I think they could say there is no DNA evidence, but there is, I agree, other evidence and it is clumsy to ignore it.

[Darren10]

We don't know this.

Only if you presume guilt until "proven" innocent, which, in this case, is impossible. For example, I dated other girls before I met and married Mrs. Darren. You can "presume" I fathered children with these previous girlfriends but although I can give you a 100% guarantee that I did no such thing and that you'll find no evidence tothe contrary, it would be impossible for me t oprove my innocence. I find this method of presumtion of guilt a bit immoral. "Innocent until proven guilty" s the way to go and it is a solid frame of mind in our society unless, of course, you are the IRS.

Fanny Alger was reportedly pregnant after her relationship with the Prophet was discovered (see, e.g., Don Bradley, "Mormon Polygamy before Nauvoo: The Relationship of Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger," in The Persistence of Polygamy: Joseph Smith and the Origins of Mormon Polygamy, ed. Newell G. Bringhurst and Craig L. Foster [independence, MO: John Whitmer Books, 2010], 14-58).

You need to check your sources, sir. those who purport this do so with no bases whatsoever. There was no a) affair discovere nor b) any evidence of a pregnancy. None. It's simply not there. The following is a VERY reasond response to this accusation:

With a lone exception, there is no account after Joseph’s death of Emma admitting Joseph’s plural marriages in any source.^[1] The reported exception is recorded in a newspaper article and two letters written by excommunicated Latter-day Saint apostle William E. McLellin.^[2] McLellin addressed the letters to Emma’s son, Joseph Smith III. The former apostle claimed to have visited Emma in 1847 and to have discussed Joseph’s relationship with Fanny Alger.

(snip)

McLellin insisted that Emma Smith confirmed these tales in 1847. Yet this is a strange occurrence—there is virtually no other record of Emma admitting, following Joseph’s death, that he even taught plural marriage. Emma and Joseph Smith III would go to their graves denying that Joseph had anything to do with the practice. But we are expected to believe that she confirmed these events to McLellin, who had no personal knowledge of them but was misled, merely repeating secondhand gossip. Emma did more (in McLellin’s retelling) than confirm that Joseph practiced plural marriage—she verified a version of events that would have been intensely shameful for her personally and that sullied her dead husband’s memory.

(snip)

The first relies on a much later account attributed to Chauncey G. Webb,^[5] whose account was first given in the notoriously anti-Mormon Wilhelm Wyl’s 1886 work. Wyl had Webb claim that Joseph “was sealed there [in Kirtland] secretly to Fanny Alger. Emma was furious, and drove the girl, who was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet, out of her house.” Webb’s daughter, Ann Eliza, added a few details, claiming that “it was with a shocked surprise that the people heard that sister Emma had turned Fanny out of the house in the night.”

As a source, Wyl cannot be used without the greatest care. On the same page as Webb’s account, Wyl has another witness imply that Joseph concocted the idea of plural marriage while consorting with Latter-day Saint females at a brothel. Such a claim is absurd. Compton insists that although Webb might be mistaken about the pregnancy, “this seems unlikely, if Fanny lived in his home after leaving the Smith home.” Compton does not acknowledge that Webb need not have been mistaken—he might have simply lied, and he had reason to do so. By contrast, G. D. Smith, after quoting Webb, says only that “there is no evidence to corroborate the claim that Fanny was pregnant,” but this soft-pedals the evidence (p. 42). There is reason to doubt this claim, not merely to regard it as unconfirmed.

(snip)

Despite the use made of him by G. D. Smith and others, McLellin is clearly a witness who cannot be accepted without great caution. At best his report likely draws on second- or thirdhand gossip. I doubt that Emma ever confirmed the stories he tells. The Webbs are likewise hostile witnesses—as members in Ohio, they took Fanny Alger into their home and yet said nothing about these events (including Fanny’s supposed pregnancy) to anyone for decades. These supposedly scandalous events were not enough to keep Chauncey Webb from following Joseph to Nauvoo and the Saints to Utah.

Is there, then, no truth at all to these accounts? One corroborated detail comes from Benjamin F. Johnson, who repeated Warren Parrish’s claim that Oliver Cowdery and Parrish had known that Joseph was involved with Fanny since “they were spied upon and found together.” This version says nothing about Emma and contains none of the details contained in McLellin’s or the Webbs’ accounts. And, Oliver's reaction is well known: he characterized it as a "dirty, nasty, filthy affair" in an angry letter to his brother Warren.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Plural_wives/Fanny_Alger/Discovered_in_a_barn

You cite allegations with no evidence whatsoever. Why in the world would you conclude that there was the possibility of a sexual affair? As i tell people regularly, there's lots of anti-Mormon information on the web, don't let it lead you.

And genetic testing for Josephine Lyon Fisher's paternity has so far been inconclusive (Ugo Perego reports that "it is possible that this paternity case may never be fully resolved by means of genetic testing." See Ugo H. Perego, "Joseph Smith, the Question of Polygamous Offspring, and DNA Analysis," in The Persistence of Polygamy, 255).

Yes, I like Perego but you need to divulge the whole story. the fact ofthe matter is that all DNA testing done has shown that those Fawn Brodie has alleged are offspring from Joseph Smith from women not Emma Smith are indeed from fathers not Joseph Smith Jr. The only exception is a few are inconclusive. Again, there is *no evidence* of an affair. Fawn Brodie does not even cite her evidence for alleging specific people were descendents of Joseph Smith and his plural wives. She relied upon gossip and I think looking at photos. 'Hey, he looks like Joseph Smith, he might be one of his offspring". please. Get real. Below is a link to Perego's DNA testing and their results thus far:

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/Children_of_polygamous_marriages

This may interes you from that link:

DNA research in 2005 confirmed Fanny Alger’s son Orrison Smith is not the son of Joseph Smith, Jr.^[3]

In any case, there is good reason to believe that at least some of Joseph Smith's polygamous marriages were consummated. As BYU professor J. Spencer Fluhman has observed, "after the Civil War, when the Reorganized Church critics charged that Joseph Smith's relationships with other women were purely spiritual unions, Latter-day Saints marshaled convincing evidence that at least some of the plural marriages had been consummated" (J. Spencer Fluhman, "'A Subject That Can Bear Investigation': Anguish, Faith, and Joseph Smith's Youngest Plural Wife," in No Weapon Shall Prosper: New Light on Sensitive Issues, ed. Robert L. Millet [Provo, UT: BYU Religious Studies Center; Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 2011], 107-108; see also Gregory L. Smith's statement that "there is good evidence of a conjugal relationship with Almira Johnson, Melissa Lott, Emily Partridge, and Eliza R. Snow. It is also reasonable to include Eliza Partridge, Maria Lawrence, and Sarah Lawrence. The evidence for their inclusion is persuasive, though they are not named specifically. There is late, hostile evidence of intimacy with Fanny Alger, and most intriguingly there is some evidence of both a physical relationship and a child with Sylvia Sessions Lyon," in The FARMS Review 20, no. 2 [2008]: 108).

I don't know about all these women but I do know about Eliza R. Snow:

Some charge that Eliza R. Snow, one of Joseph's plural wives, was pregnant by Joseph. According to the claim, a furious Emma pushed Eliza down the stairs, resulting in a miscarriage.

YIKES!!! That's horrible. But wait...

The author also quotes Newell and Avery’s biography of Emma but ignores their argument: The statement that Eliza carried Joseph’s unborn child and lost it [due to an attack by Emma] is brought into question by Eliza’s own journal. While her Victorian reticence probably would have precluded mention of her own pregnancy, if she were indeed carrying Joseph’s child, other evidence in the journal indicates that she may not have been pregnant. Eliza’s brother Lorenzo indicated that by the time she married Joseph, she was “beyond the condition of raising a family.” Also if she was “heavy with child” as the Rich account states, she would not have been teaching school, for even legally married women usually went into seclusion when their pregnancies became obvious. Eliza continued to teach school for a month after her abrupt departure from the Smith household. Her own class attendance record shows that she did not miss a day during the months she taught the Smith children, which would not have been probable had she suffered a miscarriage.^[3]

Again, no evidence.

If the evidence of BYU professor J. Spencer Fluhman was anywhere near credible than I cannot imagine how of all the anti-Mormon folks I've engaged on the blogosphere during the past four years or so never brought this to my attention. I think it would be on the top of their list of sustaining arguments. A BYU professor showing evidence of sexual affairs between Joseph Smith and his plural wives. Some of which were married to other men. Come on, that's way too tempting to pass up for those who contend that Joseph Smith was a promiscuous.

[Darren10]

The individual that was supposedly a child of Fanny Alger was not, in fact, a child of Fanny Alger.

To note: I made my #355 post and placed in bold this fact to you. I did not see this post until after I had already made mine.

[Darren10]

Although I agree with Greg Smith that "there is good evidence" that at least eight of Joseph Smith's plural marriages were consummated, like you, I don't think physical intimacy was a big part of Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy. I'm merely reacting here to overblown claims by some well-meaning defenders of the faith that there is no evidence of intimacy or offspring. That's simply untrue.

Exactly what "evidence" does Greg Smith purport?

[Darren10]

George D. Smith's Nauvoo Polygamy

I think this is what you were referring to, Nevo. It's too much reading for me to do right now. I'll attempt it later. but if you can point to the evidences from this FARMS review article, I'd appreciate it.

[Darren10]

Here's an exceprt from Gregory Smith's critique of Geroge D. Smith's book;

Alas, this document is merely a specimen of the hoary art of selective citation and textual distortion. One must admire G. D. Smith's bravado. In his haste to firmly fix some naughty thoughts to Joseph's character, he neglected to include much of the letter. He didn't burden us with the fact that Joseph wrote to three people: "Brother and Sister, Whitney, and &c." Now, this is a serious omission by G. D. Smith on two counts.

First, it is a lost opportunity to show that Joseph is a bit dimwitted in the seduction business, not having figured out that an invitation for Sarah to a steamy tryst should perhaps not include her parents.

LOL! Although this, thus far, doesn't sound like Gregory Smith is advocating that Josepm Smith Jr. cosumated a marriage with a plural wife (in fact it seems to the contrary thus far, and there's a lot of "Smith's" in this critique), you gotta admit, that was funny.

OK, I'm off to clean my sink pipes.

[Calm]

A BYU professor showing evidence of sexual affairs between Joseph Smith and his plural wives

If they were married, it wasn't an affair.

[Calm]

http://en.fairmormon.org/Polygamy_book/Age_of_wives

2. Were there marital relations?

As shown elsewhere, the data for sexual relations in Joseph's plural marriages are quite scant (see Chapter 10—not online). For the purposes of evaluating "statutory rape" charges, only a few relationships are relevant.

The most prominent is, of course, Helen Mar Kimball, who was the prophet's youngest wife, married three months prior to her 15th birthday.^[11] As we have seen, Todd Compton's treatment is somewhat confused, but he clarifies his stance and writes that "[a]ll the evidence points to this marriage as a primarily dynastic marriage."^[12] Other historians have also concluded that Helen's marriage to Joseph was unconsummated. ^[13]

Nancy M. Winchester was married at age fourteen or fifteen, but we know nothing else of her relationship with Joseph. ^[14]

Flora Ann Woodruff was also sixteen at her marriage, and "[a]n important motivation" seems to have been "the creation of a bond between" Flora's family and Joseph.^[15] We know nothing of the presence or absence of marital intimacy.

Fanny Alger would have been sixteen if Compton's date for the marriage is accepted. Given that I favor a later date for her marriage, this would make her eighteen. In either case, we have already seen how little reliable information is available for this marriage (see Chapter 4—not online), though on balance it was probably consummated.

Sarah Ann Whitney, Lucy Walker, and Sarah Lawrence were each seventeen at the time of their marriage. Here at last we have reliable evidence of intimacy, since Lucy Walker suggested that the Lawrence sisters had consummated their marriage with Joseph. Intimacy in Joseph's marriages may have been more rare than many have assumed—Walker's testimony suggested marital relations with the Partridge and Lawrence sisters, but said nothing about intimacy in her own marriage (see Chapter 10—not online).

Sarah Ann Whitney's marriage had heavy dynastic overtones, binding Joseph to faithful Bishop Orson F. Whitney. We know nothing of a sexual dimension, though Compton presumes that one is implied by references to the couple's "posterity" and "rights" of marriage in the sealing ceremony. ^[16] This is certainly plausible, though the doctrine of adoption and Joseph's possible desire to establish a pattern for all marriages/sealings might caution us against assuming too much.

Of Joseph's seven under-eighteen wives, then, only one (Lawrence) has even second-hand evidence of intimacy. Fanny Alger has third-hand hostile accounts of intimacy, and we know nothing about most of the others. Lucy Walker and Helen Mar Kimball seem unlikely candidates for consummation.

The evidence simply does not support Christopher Hitchens' wild claim, since there is scant evidence for sexuality in the majority of Joseph's marriages. Many presume that Joseph practiced polygamy to satisfy sexual longings, and with a leer suggest that of course Joseph would have consummated these relationships, since that was the whole point. Such reasoning is circular, and condemns Joseph's motives and actions before the evidence is heard.

Even were we to conclude that Joseph consummated each of his marriages—a claim nowhere sustained by the evidence—this would not prove that he acted improperly, or was guilty of "statutory rape." This requires an examination into the legal climate of his era.

[Nevo]

I find this method of presumption of guilt a bit immoral. "Innocent until proven guilty" is the way to go

Hi Darren,

Although you probably can't tell from my posts on this thread, I am not a critic of the Church or of Joseph Smith. I have, in fact, spent a good deal of time and effort over the past dozen or so years defending Joseph Smith on various online fora—particularly his practice of polygamy. This has given me at least a passing acquaintance with most of the relevant primary sources and secondary literature. And I can assure you that, as one who believes in Joseph Smith's prophetic calling, I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

The source regarding Alger's alleged pregnancy is Chauncey Webb. Greg Smith admits that "Webb was in a position to know about Fanny’s pregnancy" (Fanny lived with the Webbs after her expulsion from the Smith home) but thinks "there is reason to doubt this claim"—the main reason being that Webb's statement was given after he had left the Church, therefore he is a hostile source. Greg Smith suggests that Webb just made it up. That's a possibility, but I see no reason to assume that Webb is lying. If Webb was simply out to slander the Prophet, why did he characterize the relationship as a marriage ("sealing") rather than an extramarital affair? Also, as Don Bradley observes, Fanny's quick marriage to Solomon Custer in November 1836 is consistent with her being pregnant ("a swift marriage was her only chance to avoid the stigma that an illegitimate birth would bring to her and the child"). Bradley suggests that the child was "probably stillborn or deceased in infancy." Chauncey Webb's wife, Eliza Jane Webb, may have alluded to this when she stated that "Joseph never had any living children by his polygamous women..." (see Bradley, "Mormon Polygamy before Nauvoo?", 36, 44n86; emphasis added). Of Fanny's children with Solomon Custer, four out of nine died in infancy.

Joseph Smith's relationship with Fanny Alger is amply attested, not least by members of Fanny's family. Brian Hales, in his JMH article, "Fanny Alger and Joseph Smith's Pre-Nauvoo Reputation," identifies twenty primary source documents "that refer to Joseph Smith's relationship to Fanny Alger in some way" (139).

Edited July 7, 2012 by Nevo

[why me]

Joseph Smith's relationship with Fanny Alger is amply attested, not least by members of Fanny's family. Brian Hales, in his JMH article, "Fanny Alger and Joseph Smith's Pre-Nauvoo Reputation," identifies twenty primary source documents "that refer to Joseph Smith's relationship to Fanny Alger in some way" (139).

Don Bradely also has done a nice piece about fanny as you lalready stated on page 8 of this thread. Fanny's parents were proud that their daugther was sealed to the prophet. They died faithful members of the church in Utah if I am not mistaken.

Edited July 7, 2012 by why me

[dougtheavenger]

The question of whether Joseph Smith had other wives than Emma Hale Smith is an historical question subject to revision. No doctrine is at stake, since D&C 132 (not to mention the Old Testiment) sanctions polygamy.

[dougtheavenger]

No allegations about Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger predate her pregnancy. Speculation as to who the father of her first child (Orrison Smith) wa is the whole foundation of any claim that Fanny and Joseph had a sexual relationship. Thus DNA research which demonstrated that documented descendants of Orrison Smith in the direct male line are not the descendants of Joseph Smith demolishes the claim that Fanny Alger was anything to Joseph Smith other than an employee. It can be argued that there may be a difference between "documented" descendants and actual descendants, but the burden of proof is on those who make this argument. As things stand now the preponderance of evidence says the Fanny Alger/Joseph Smith relationship is a myth.

Edited July 7, 2012 by dougtheavenger

[Nevo]

DNA research which demonstrated that documented descendants of Orrison Smith in the direct male line are not the descendants of Joseph Smith demolishes the claim that Fanny Alger was anything to Joseph Smith other than an employee.

That would only be true if "Orrison Smith" was, in fact, a son of Fanny Alger. There is no evidence that Fanny Alger ever had a son named Orrison Smith.

According to Ugo Perego, "several years ago, a man surfaced who claimed to be a descendant of an Orrison Smith." He claimed that this ancestor, born in Ohio in about 1834 was the child of Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger. The man had no evidence to support his claim. None. But since Perego added "Orrison Smith" to his study, it is now fashionable to conclude that "DNA research...demolishes the claim that Fanny Alger was anything to Joseph Smith other than an employee."

Had Perego done due diligence on this man's claim instead of accepting it at face value he would have learned that the only "Orrison Smith" born about 1834 in Ohio was the son of John and Priscilla Smith (1850 census, roll M432_658, page 13A, image 288). There is another Orison/Orrison/Orson Smith born in Ohio in about 1838, but he was the son of Abner C. Smith and Sarah Smith. Another, born about 1840, was the son of Mark Smith and Louisa Smith.

As things stand now the preponderance of evidence says the Fanny Alger/Joseph Smith relationship is a myth.

Perhaps you should look at the evidence before dismissing the relationship as a "myth." The articles I mentioned by Don Bradley and Brian Hales are a good place to start.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Nevo

[why me]

Perhaps you should look at the evidence before dismissing the relationship as a "myth." The articles I mentioned by Don Bradley and Brian Hales are a good place to start.

This is true. And Don's article is rather faith promoting and gives the critics some food for thought. I am less familiar with Brian Hales article. One thing that I can say for Fanny: she never to my knowledge spoke a negative word about Joseph Smith. In fact, most likely just the opposite since her brother, father and mother were faithful members of the church. One word about Joseph being lustful and a swine and I do believe that all three would be out the door from the lds church.

[William Schryver]

The source regarding Alger's alleged pregnancy is Chauncey Webb. Greg Smith admits that "Webb was in a position to know about Fanny’s pregnancy" (Fanny lived with the Webbs after her expulsion from the Smith home) but thinks "there is reason to doubt this claim"—the main reason being that Webb's statement was given after he had left the Church, therefore he is a hostile source. Greg Smith suggests that Webb just made it up. That's a possibility, but I see no reason to assume that Webb is lying. If Webb was simply out to slander the Prophet, why did he characterize the relationship as a marriage ("sealing") rather than an extramarital affair?

I think it is somewhat naive to believe Chauncey Webb solely on the basis of his having used LDS terminology in the context of his claims concerning Joseph Smith. This is actually a common tactic among apostate detractors of the Prophet, since their tales are almost always directed towards still-faithful members of the Church. They therefore couch their allegations in familiar terminology. William Law and his cohorts in Nauvoo are a prime example of this.

I agree with Greg Smith that Chauncey Webb is an unreliable source in this matter.

Edited July 7, 2012 by William Schryver

[William Schryver]

Perhaps you should look at the evidence before dismissing the relationship as a "myth." The articles I mentioned by Don Bradley and Brian Hales are a good place to start.

I should make it perfectly clear that I don't believe the relationship between Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger was a "myth." I think it is indisputable that Fanny Alger was a plural wife of Joseph Smith, and that he and she had most likely consummated that marriage.

Edited July 7, 2012 by William Schryver

[Nevo]

I think it is somewhat naive to believe Chauncey Webb solely on the basis of his having used LDS terminology in the context of his claims concerning Joseph Smith.

I agree, but that doesn't describe what I wrote. Webb's use of LDS terminology is beside the point. The point is that Webb characterizes the relationship as a marriage rather than an affair. He could have lied and called it an affair—and it would have been a lie because the Webbs were among a select few that actually knew the truth of the matter—but he didn't. Of course it is possible for someone to be truthful about one thing and lie about another, but what would be Webb's motive for doing so? If Webb was willing to lie about the pregnancy, why wouldn't he lie about the nature of the relationship as well? My guess is that he thought the facts themselves were damaging enough: there was no need to make anything up.

In any case, Webb's characterization of the relationship as a marriage isn't the "sole" reason I think it plausible that Fanny was pregnant. Eliza Jane Webb's statement that "Joseph never had any living children by his polygamous women" suggests that she knew of, or had heard of, some that didn't live. Given that her remark immediately follows her statement that "Emma turned Fanny out of her house because of Joseph's intimacy with her," it seems quite possible that the two statements are related. And there is also Fanny's marriage to Solomon Custer in November 1836.

As Don Bradley notes, "Janet Ellingson, responding to Todd Compton's arguments that the relationship was a plural marriage, has argued that Alger's behavior in the wake of its discovery provides a neglected contemporaneous demonstration that she saw it as an extramarital affair. Had she believed herself married to Smith, she would not have promptly married Solomon Custer in Indiana. Ellingson is surely right to this extent: the fact the relationship was dissolved after being discovered and hastily replaced for Alger by her legal marriage to Solomon Custer would be more typical of an affair than a marriage" (Bradley, "Mormon Polygamy before Nauvoo?", 26; emphasis in original). However, Bradley goes on to say that Alger being pregnant would explain her hasty marriage to Custer.

I admit that none of these evidences, taken alone, has much probative value. Even taken together they do not compel the conclusion that Fanny was pregnant. But they're enough for me to believe that she might have been. Greg Smith, by the way, doesn't rule it out: "If Fanny was pregnant, it is curious that no one else remarked upon it at the time, though it is possible that the close quarters of a nineteenth-century household provided Emma with clues. If Fanny was pregnant by Joseph, the child never went to term, died young, or was raised under a different name" (source).

P.S.

Interestingly, dougtheavenger doesn't question any of the evidence for Fanny Alger's pregnancy. In his view, it was the talk of Kirtland and was the whole reason that there were rumors about Fanny and the Prophet in the first place. Not only was there a baby, but the baby survived, grew up, got married, and had children of his own—though, for some reason, he was called "Orrison Smith" instead of Orrison Alger or Orrison Custer. Makes sense to me

Edited July 7, 2012 by Nevo

[Calm]

I could not tell whether Doug believed there was no relationship whatever (no plural marriage) or just no physical relationship. Perhaps I missed that.

[ERayR]

What mystifies me is why all the abhorrence to the thought that Joseph may have had a sexual relationship to those women to whom he was married. Although I do think 1842 (11) and 1843 (17) would have left him with no time for church and civic business.

[Nevo]

I could not tell whether Doug believed there was no relationship whatever (no plural marriage) or just no physical relationship. Perhaps I missed that.

Doug claimed that Fanny Alger was nothing more to Joseph Smith than an employee ("DNA research . . . demolishes the claim that Fanny Alger was anything to Joseph Smith other than an employee"). He further stated that "the preponderance of evidence says the Fanny Alger/Joseph Smith relationship is a myth." That seems to rule out Alger as a plural wife.

[Calm]

Thank you, I had missed that or it hadn't penetrated when I read it the first time.

[William Schryver]

Doug claimed that Fanny Alger was nothing more to Joseph Smith than an employee ("DNA research . . . demolishes the claim that Fanny Alger was anything to Joseph Smith other than an employee"). He further stated that "the preponderance of evidence says the Fanny Alger/Joseph Smith relationship is a myth." That seems to rule out Alger as a plural wife.

I wonder if Doug is aware that the Church certainly acknowledges Fanny Alger as a plural wife of Joseph Smith?