Joseph Smith And Polygamy

[Vance]

"Pookie?"

I've never heard that term applied in the fashion you seem to understand it. Here's the Urban Dictionary definition: pookie

I'm familiar with a somewhat similar term, but I won't use it here.

In the Philippines, people would understand EXACTLY what she meant.

[Vance]

KevinG,

You wrote:

Yes. On the other hand, when we already have been told by God not to do it, and someone claims that God told him to do it, we know that God did not command it.

So, it was wrong for Abraham to lie to Pharaoh even though God commanded him to?

THAT is going to be your argument?

[Vance]

As far as Bowman's CFR

http://mormoncurtain.com/topic_polygamy_section1.html#pub_986163514

[Calm]

In the Philippines, people would understand EXACTLY what she meant.

Does anyone here not understand EXACTLY what she meant, lol.

[CASteinman]

10-20 years ago this stuff would have been harder to find in mainstream LDS publications.

I do not see any difference at all.

[CASteinman]

Which is one reason I reject the notion that polygamy was practiced (purely) for survival purposes. I think the bottom line is that it was a commandment of God (for some) and directed by the Spirit of the Lord.

I believe it was commanded of God and directed by the Spirit for survival purposes. Whether that was the only reason, I do not know. But I think that was the Wisdom of God.

[CASteinman]

It is not for some.

Having read the evidences, I highly doubt the polyandrous marriages were sexual (I think that is one reason why Joseph chose that route after the first marriage with Fanny Alger didn't go so well) and the two youngest ones (at least Helen's from her own description and I assume the same for the other one her age for the same reason). The rest I think there is evidence for, such as the affidavits and some other comments.

However, I doubt that if they were sexual in nature, that it happened all that much due to the lack of children after having 11? with Emma. I do think the lack of children demonstrates the purpose of the marriages/sealings was something other than libido.

I agree with this line of thinking. It is very odd that if he were so sexually active with other women, he would have had so few children by them. I don't really care a great deal either way, but I think that with so many women and no children, a lot less was going on than people seem to imagine.

[DonBradley]

Hi Darren,

Since my chapter on Joseph and Fanny Alger is the first one in The Persistence of Polygamy, you can read almost all of it in the sample pages made available by Amazon.

To understand why the Webbs are, in fact, largely reliable sources on Fanny you have to understand their relationship to the events. Eliza Jane Webb and her daughter Ann Eliza Webb Young (married to and divorced from Brigham) say that Fanny came and stayed with them when she was kicked out of the Smith home by Emma. Why believe them? That is addressed in another paper I did, this one called "Dating Fanny Alger: The Nature, Timing, and Consequences of an Early Polygamous Relationship," on the timing of her marriage to Joseph. That paper is not yet published, though a recording is available from Sunstone.

The gist is that records kept by members of Fanny's family bear out the Webbs' claim that Fanny boarded with them after she left the Smith residence and before she headed west with family, to Indiana. Thus, the Webbs would have been in an excellent position--perhaps the best position of anyone besides Fanny herself--to know if she was pregnant after leaving the Smith home.

It should also be noted that all three of the Webbs, parents and daughter, left testimony suggesting that the relationship between Joseph and Fanny was a marriage rather than an affair.

As my chapter in Persistence explains, using all the available sources on this relationship, the preponderance of the evidence points to the relationship being polygamy.

Let me know what you think if you get a chance to read and/or listen to these. And expect a future published version of my paper on the timing of the relationship.

Don

[why me]

I agree with this line of thinking. It is very odd that if he were so sexually active with other women, he would have had so few children by them. I don't really care a great deal either way, but I think that with so many women and no children, a lot less was going on than people seem to imagine.

When we consider that Joseph married many women within a two year period, we are looking at a very sexually active male to keep up with his duties. My guess is that he either had to be with a woman every night during this two year period or most of these sealing were platonic. I can't see him attempting to keep all 32 wives or so happy sexually. Now this should not become a sex thread because it would be closed. But since we are talking about what kind of sealing/marriage ties these were, it would be good to mention that sex was not the prime mover.

In a side note: to be sexually active with all of these women, the feelings of lust would play a big role. None of these wives ever claimed that he was lusty and uncaring or selfish. And that also says much. Most men would eventually loose it and show their lusty side to the women involved. It would be only normal. But not in this case. And that says much too.

Since fanny was the first polygamous wife, there may have been a sexual relationship But during the outburst of weddings that involved him from 1841 to 1843, I doubt it. He would need to be bed hopping all the time.

Edited July 10, 2012 by why me

[Vance]

Does anyone here not understand EXACTLY what she meant, lol.

Based on the context, they should have.

But I was referring to the common meaning of the word (in the Philippines), not just the context.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Vance

[treehugger]

Scott Gordon claimed that Joseph Smith's plural marriage is documented. However, looking at the sources provided by Scott Gordon - which are underlined below, some of the sources give no indication to the reader that Joseph Smith entered into plural/polygamist marriages.

2007 “teachings of Presidents, Joseph Smith vii-xiii “This book also does not discuss plural marriage. The doctrines and principles relating to plural marriage were revealed to Joseph Smith as early as 1831. The Prophet taught the doctrine of plural marriage, and a number of such marriages were performed during his lifetime.” This source does not indicate to the reader that Joseph Smith, himself, entered into, plural/polygamist marriages. This source only lets the reader know that "a number" of plural marriages were performed during Joseph Smith lifetime, but the source does not indicate who entered into those marriages

Ensign, Aug 92 page 30, “Her great trial came when the prophet revealed to Emma that they would be required to live the ancient law of Abraham—plural marriage. Emma suffered deeply hurt feelings because of it. While she agreed with this doctrine at times, at other times she opposed it. Years later, Emma is purported to have denied that any such doctrine was ever introduced by her husband. In later years, Emma apparently never spoke of the sacred ordinances they had received. She would have been under covenant not to do so.” This source is does better at indicating Joseph Smith may have entered into plural/polygmaist marriages, but the author flatly rejects Emma Smith's claim it never happened, thus it becomes who to believe; it is interesting that the author does not provide any evidence that Emma Smith "would have been under covenant" not to admit that Joseph Smith entered into plural/polygamist marriages.

Ensign jan 89 page 30, In Nauvoo, the Knight group faced and passed another great test of faith. The Prophet introduced several doctrines relating to the temple including the temple ceremonies and plural marriage, which some could not accept.²⁰But the Knights received the teachings. They helped to finish the temple and then performed baptisms for the dead. By early 1846, more than twenty adults in the Knight families had received their temple endowments and sealings. Four of Father and Polly Knight’s children entered into plural marriage. This source does not inform the reader that Joseph Smith, himself, entered into plural/polygamist marriages.

Ensign Dec 78 page 42, ” In obedience to the command of the living prophet, Newel and Elizabeth Ann gave their daughter Sarah Ann in marriage to Joseph Smith.” A direct and straightforward acknowledgment.

Ensign feb 77 page 48, “Then, along with economic privation and an absent father, was for some the institution of plural marriage. Starting during Joseph Smith’s own lifetime but limited to a few dozen families until its official announcement in 1852, plural marriage brought a powerful new challenge to the equanimity of Latter-day Saint family life.”

Once again, another source which does not inform the reader that Joseph Smith, himself, entered into plural/polygamist marriages. However, if based on this vague and nonspecific text, the reader is suppose to realize that Joseph Smith entered into plural/polygamist marriages, then, based on the following is the reader suppose to know and understand that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with his plural/polygamist wives

… “In the words of Professor Eugene Campbell of Brigham Young University, “Many of the normal problems of marriage, such as finance, personality adjustment, sexual relationships, jealousies, child-rearing and discipline were all magnified in plural marriages.”

New Era dec 73 page 7, “The great prophet Elias, whom Joseph Fielding Smith says is Noah (See Answers to Gospel Questions [Deseret Book Co.: 1957], vol. 3, p. 138), appeared and bestowed upon their heads the keys of the dispensation of Abraham, or in other words, as Elder Bruce R. McConkie says in Mormon Doctrine (2nd ed. [bookcraft: 1966], p. 219.), the keys of celestial and plural marriage. Again, not indication that Joseph Smith entered into plural/polygamist marriages.

DC section 132 1843 that talks about plural marriage. Apparently the position is, that it is self evident in Section 132 that Joseph Smith was a polygamist or had entered into plural marriages.

Edited July 17, 2012 by treehugger

[why me]

Scott Gordon claimed that Joseph Smith's plural marriage is documented. However, looking at the sources, some of the sources give no indication to the reader that Joseph Smith entered into plural/polygamist marriages.

2007 “teachings of Presidents, Joseph Smith vii-xiii “This book also does not discuss plural marriage. The doctrines and principles relating to plural marriage were revealed to Joseph Smith as early as 1831. The Prophet taught the doctrine of plural marriage, and a number of such marriages were performed during his lifetime.” This source does not indicate to the reader that Joseph Smith, himself, entered into, plural/polygamist marriages. This source only lets the reader know that "a number" of plural marriages were performed during Joseph Smith lifetime, but the source does not indicate who entered into those marriages

Ensign, Aug 92 page 30, “Her great trial came when the prophet revealed to Emma that they would be required to live the ancient law of Abraham—plural marriage. Emma suffered deeply hurt feelings because of it. While she agreed with this doctrine at times, at other times she opposed it. Years later, Emma is purported to have denied that any such doctrine was ever introduced by her husband. In later years, Emma apparently never spoke of the sacred ordinances they had received. She would have been under covenant not to do so.” This source is does better at indicating Joseph Smith may have entered into plural/polygmaist marriages, but the author flatly rejects Emma Smith's claim it never happened, thus it becomes who to believe; it is interesting that the author does not provide any evidence that Emma Smith "would have been under covenant" not to admit that Joseph Smith entered into plural/polygamist marriages.

Ensign jan 89 page 30, In Nauvoo, the Knight group faced and passed another great test of faith. The Prophet introduced several doctrines relating to the temple including the temple ceremonies and plural marriage, which some could not accept.²⁰But the Knights received the teachings. They helped to finish the temple and then performed baptisms for the dead. By early 1846, more than twenty adults in the Knight families had received their temple endowments and sealings. Four of Father and Polly Knight’s children entered into plural marriage. This source does not inform the reader that Joseph Smith, himself, entered into plural/polygamist marriages.

Ensign Dec 78 page 42, ” In obedience to the command of the living prophet, Newel and Elizabeth Ann gave their daughter Sarah Ann in marriage to Joseph Smith.” A direct and straightforward acknowledgment.

Ensign feb 77 page 48, “Then, along with economic privation and an absent father, was for some the institution of plural marriage. Starting during Joseph Smith’s own lifetime but limited to a few dozen families until its official announcement in 1852, plural marriage brought a powerful new challenge to the equanimity of Latter-day Saint family life.”

Once again, another source which does not inform the reader that Joseph Smith, himself, entered into plural/polygamist marriages. However, if based on this vague and nonspecific text, the reader is suppose to realize that Joseph Smith entered into plural/polygamist marriages, then, based on the following is the reader suppose to know and understand that Joseph Smith had sexual relations with his plural/polygamist wives

… “In the words of Professor Eugene Campbell of Brigham Young University, “Many of the normal problems of marriage, such as finance, personality adjustment, sexual relationships, jealousies, child-rearing and discipline were all magnified in plural marriages.”

New Era dec 73 page 7, “The great prophet Elias, whom Joseph Fielding Smith says is Noah (See Answers to Gospel Questions [Deseret Book Co.: 1957], vol. 3, p. 138), appeared and bestowed upon their heads the keys of the dispensation of Abraham, or in other words, as Elder Bruce R. McConkie says in Mormon Doctrine (2nd ed. [bookcraft: 1966], p. 219.), the keys of celestial and plural marriage. Again, not indication that Joseph Smith entered into plural/polygamist marriages.

DC section 132 1843 that talks about plural marriage. Apparently the position is, that it is self evident in Section 132 that Joseph Smith was a polygamist or had entered into plural marriages.

The Bible indicates that Abraham, Jacob, and others of the Lord’s servants had multiple wives (see Genesis 16:1–3; 29:23–30; 30:4, 9; Judges 8:30; 1 Samuel 1:1–2). Joseph Smith asked God why He had permitted this practice and was told that God had commanded it for specific purposes. One reason given by the Lord for plural marriage is mentioned in the Book of Mormon: “If I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall [have only one wife]” (Jacob 2:30; see also v. 27).

After God revealed the doctrine of plural marriage to Joseph Smith in 1831 and commanded him to live it, the Prophet, over a period of years, cautiously taught the doctrine to some close associates. Eventually, he and a small number of Church leaders entered into plural marriages in the early years of the Church. Those who practiced plural marriage at that time, both male and female, experienced a significant trial of their faith. The practice was so foreign to them that they needed and received personal inspiration from God to help them obey the commandment.

http://www.lds.org/study/topics/polygamy-plural-marriage?lang=eng&query=joseph+smith+polygamy

It is on the church website. So what is the problem?

[treehugger]

http://www.lds.org/s... smith polygamy

It is on the church website. So what is the problem?

I have stated several times what "the problem" is.

Here are some questions for you, that are an attempt to help you understand:

In what year was the "internet", as we know it today, largely made available to the general populous? (hint: it was the mid 1990s)

In what year did the LDS Church created "Lds.org" or another Official LDS website?

In what year did the LDS Church make available online, the Ensign dating back to 1971?

In what year did the LDS Church create the webpage you link?

The problem, whyme, is that you want to rely on a webpage, that might be about 2 years old, to dismiss ALL claims that have ever been made.

You are relying on what could be described as a version of presentism.

The problem, whyme, is that you dogmatically refuse to acknowledge the serious flaw in your logic.

You would do better to simply point out the fact that the Church directly acknowledged Joseph Smith polygamy in a 1978 issue of the Ensign; which means the LDS Church has acknowledge for the last 34 years that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.

Edited July 17, 2012 by treehugger

[Calm]

Scott Gordon claimed that Joseph Smith's plural marriage is documented.

CFR please.

[Calm]

And yet again the comments in the Institute manuals of the last forty years are ignored....

[ERayR]

And yet again the comments in the Institute manuals of the last forty years are ignored....

It does sometime seem as if we are dealing with insanity doesn't it?

[treehugger]

CFR please.

Scott Gordon made the claims at conference, a video of him speaking is available online. Ask Scott Gordon for the video or possibly poster "wiki wonka"

Edited July 17, 2012 by treehugger

[treehugger]

And yet again the comments in the Institute manuals of the last forty years are ignored....

CFR please, can you show in manuals that are 40years old, Joseph Smith polygamy is directly mentioned ? The first time you made this claim, it appears the manual you link is from 2003.

I do not doubt, that "instructors" went outside the correlated lesson materials to bring up Joseph Smiths polygamy.

Edited July 17, 2012 by treehugger

[Calm]

Scott Gordon made the claims at conference, a video of him speaking is available online. Ask Scott Gordon for the video or possibly poster "wiki wonka"

You are the one who made the claim, you are the one that needs to make the effort to substantiate it according to board rules

[Calm]

CFR please, can you show in manuals that are 40years old, Joseph Smith polygamy is directly mentioned ? The first time you made this claim, it appears the manual you link is from 2003.

That is its latest edition. It has at least been available since 1989 (that may just be the second edition though as I remember it in the early 80s). My husband took the Church History Class that used the previous manual, Ivan J. Barrett's that was published in 1973 1967 originally. I will get the page numbers that refer to plural marriage shortly.

add-on: Barrett's text (first printed in 67, my husband has the edition printed in 77) has a section on plural marriage starting on page 520 going until 527, including explicit statements about Joseph practicing it, for example on page 521 "To a few trusted friends he taught the principle and let the way himelf by taking other women in the bond of eternal marriage." Barrett mentions at least 5 of his wives by name, Louisa Beeman, the Partridge sisters and the Lawrence sisters (possibly more were mentioned but those are th ones I saw with a quick skim).

Edited July 17, 2012 by calmoriah

[Zakuska]

Well lets see... was it not Polygamy that caused the schism in the church? Emma and the rest remaining in Missourri denying that Joseph Smith was a Polygamist and BY and the other Pioneers coming to Utah Acknowledging that he was?

That pretty much sinks treehuggers whining since it goes back to the very beginning.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Zakuska

[Calm]

I remember as a child in the 60s and teen in the 70s that anytime the RLDS schism was brought up, it was mentioned that they tried to deny that plural marriage was started by Joseph Smith.

[treehugger]

You are the one who made the claim, you are the one that needs to make the effort to substantiate it according to board rules

I do not need to substantiate it. I have told you where to find it.

If you believe I am lying about Scott Gordon's claims, then let him know. I watched the video presentation, wherein, he gave a power point presentation on the the development of FAIR. You can contact Scott Gordon about the presentation.

[why me]

CFR please, can you show in manuals that are 40years old, Joseph Smith polygamy is directly mentioned ? The first time you made this claim, it appears the manual you link is from 2003.

I do not doubt, that "instructors" went outside the correlated lesson materials to bring up Joseph Smiths polygamy.

The problem here is that the saints in utah knew that joseph was a polygamist. Some of his plural wives when they died, had his name on their tombstone. And I am sure that it was in their public conscience for quite some time. That means that somewhere along the line it was forgotten. Now when that happened is anyone's guess. But the lds church never denied that Joseph was a polygamist. The RLDS did but not the lds church. My guess is: somewhere along the line, it was no longer important and it began to leave the mindset of the lds because it was a given that Joseph was a polygamist. Now again suddenly with the rise of the internet it has become important. All over the internet one can read that Joseph was a polygamist and the lds church is hiding it. But really, I don't think that the church is hiding it. But I do think that the church considered it no longer important. The antimormons consider it important but who else? Church members?

[Hestia]

Scott Gordon made the claims at conference, a video of him speaking is available online. Ask Scott Gordon for the video or possibly poster "wiki wonka"

Answer CFR's when you bring up the information.