Has Time Been Good To The Teachings Of Bruce R. Mcconkie And Joseph Fielding Smith?

[wenglund]

If someone "knew" the savior, as faithful LDS assume Bruce R and other apostles of the LDS church do, what does this have to do with claims they make about other Gospel related topics that turn out to not be fully accurate based on present day church position or current research.

As indicated, it has to do with clarifying what is important and worth judging a man by over time as contrasted with the alleged claims Paxton's is concerned with.

Or are you claiming that such "knowledge" means that they will not ever speak inaccurately?

False dichotomy aside, I don't view Church leaders as infallible. It is just that on balance, the relatively few presumed inaccuracies aren't worthy of note--at least not as the sole or even primary basis for taking the measure of these men.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Lightbearer]

Clearly, whether you want to accept the sky being blue or not, McConkie and Smith taught things they believed to be true that have been completely discredited.

Discredited by who? You? I'll take my chances with Elder McConkie and President Smith instead of highminded apostates.

[ANACO]

Moses 6:22

And this is the genealogy of the sons of

Adam, who was the

son

of

God

, with whom

God

, himself, conversed.

http://www.lds.org/s...f-adam?lang=eng

Fall of Adam

Fall of Adam.

The process by which mankind became mortal on this earth. The event is recorded in

Gen. 2, 3, 4

; and

Moses 3, 4

. The fall of Adam is one of the most important occurrences in the history of man. Before the fall, Adam and Eve had physical bodies but no blood.

There were

no sin,

no death, and no children among any of the earthly creations

. With the eating of the “forbidden fruit,” Adam and Eve became mortal, sin entered, blood formed in their bodies, and death became a part of life.

Adam became the “first flesh” upon the earth (

Moses 3:7

), meaning that he and Eve were the first to become mortal.

After Adam fell, the whole creation fell and became mortal

. Adam’s fall brought both physical and spiritual death into the world upon all mankind (

Hel. 14:16–17

).

The fall was no surprise to the Lord. It was a necessary step in the progress of man, and provisions for a Savior had been made even before the fall had occurred. Jesus Christ came to atone for the fall of Adam and also for man’s individual sins.

Latter-day revelation supports the biblical account of the fall, showing that it was a historical event that literally occurred in the history of man. Many points in latter-day revelation are also clarified that are not discernible from the Bible. Among other things it makes clear that the fall is a blessing, and that Adam and Eve should be honored in their station as the first parents of the earth. Significant references are

2 Ne. 2:15–26

;

9:6–21

;

Mosiah 3:11–16

;

Alma 22:12–14

;

42:2–15

;

D&C 29:34–44

;

Moses 5:9–13

. See also

Flesh

.

bold and red added for emphasis

Apparently, time has served Elder McConkie and President Joseph Fielding Smith, well.

The above indicates the Theory of Evolution is bunk.

The Theory relies on "death" or "mortality." There was no death, no children, before the Fall.

[thesometimesaint]

Speculation from things not in evidence.

[cinepro]

In the rush to condemn and marginalize Elder Bruce R. McConkie it would be well to again take note of who the man really was.

In which he says...

As we read, ponder, and pray, there will come into our minds a view of the three gardens of God—the Garden of Eden, the Garden of Gethsemane, and the Garden of the Empty Tomb where Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene.

In Eden we will see all things created in a paradisiacal state—without death, without procreation, without probationary experiences.

We will come to know that such a creation, now unknown to man, was the only way to provide for the Fall.

We will then see Adam and Eve, the first man and the first woman, step down from their state of immortal and paradisiacal glory to become the first mortal flesh on earth.

Mortality, including as it does procreation and death, will enter the world. And because of transgression a probationary estate of trial and testing will begin.

After reading that statement, ask yourself how likely it is that God used an evolutionary process involving countless generations of procreation and death in "creating" the plants and animals before Adam and the Garden of Eden?

Edited July 5, 2012 by cinepro

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

Incredibly likely. Adam and Eve were born in a mortal natural world then PLACED in the Garden when all was ready.

[cinepro]

cinepro:

Incredibly likely. Adam and Eve were born in a mortal natural world then PLACED in the Garden when all was ready.

That sound you hear is Elder McConkie spinning in his grave.

Coincidentally, that talk was republished in the April 2011 Ensign, so if the Church is planning on moving away from his teachings about the creation and the Garden of Eden, it's a recent decision.

[thesometimesaint]

Cinepro:

I don't see where the Church has accepted Elder McConkie's ideas on the Creation and Garden of Eden.

Please point me to that acceptance in my D&C?

[wenglund]

After reading that statement, ask yourself how likely it is that God used an evolutionary process involving countless generations of procreation and death in "creating" the plants and animals before Adam and the Garden of Eden?

Oh, good....fodder for gnat-strainers. Let the relatively meaningless nit-picking and debates begin.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited July 5, 2012 by wenglund

[cinepro]

Cinepro:

I don't see where the Church has accepted Elder McConkie's ideas on the Creation and Garden of Eden.

Please point me to that acceptance in my D&C?

Please stop PM'ing me people. For the last time, "thesometimesaint" is, as far as I know, a real person and his posts express the thoughts of that person. Even if I were to create a "sockpuppet" to parody pro-evolution LDS, I couldn't come up with stuff like that.

[KevinG]

It would be a shame if someone apostatized over the teachings of a long dead human being rather than sought salvation through a living God.

The devil must enjoy these games.

While I suspect time has been equally bad to Elder M and President Joseph F. (they both died) eternity will be equally good to both of them (they both had faith in Christ).

Edited July 5, 2012 by KevinG

[ERayR]

Again to really see who Elder McConkie really was go back and listen to his last conference address. History will deal very favorably with that.

[thesometimesaint]

ERayR:

Agreed.

[DwayneS]

Way back in post #59 John Ping Pong perpetuates oft repeated, and from my understanding fallacious, ideas about Elder McConkie and the the publishing of Mormon Doctrine. President McKay asked Elder McConkie not to reprint a second edition but then changed his mind and asked Elder McConkie, with the editorial help of Elder Kimball, to reprint the second edition of Mormon Doctrine in 1966.

I also understand that the changes embodied in the new edition contained no significant doctrinal changes and only softened the tone of potentially controversial doctrines.

Additionally, you can ponder the thought that if Elder McConkie directly disobeyed a directive from the First Presidency in 1966, what is the likelihood that he would be called as an apostle in 1972?

I also find it interesting that critics like to downplay and even demonize the significance of Elder McConkie's contributions in the doctrinal developement of the LDS church. Even active members of the church have fallen victim to the false ideas that abound regarding Elder McConkie and Mormon Doctrine. The simple fact is that Elder McConkie's contributions have withstood the test of time in spectacular fashion and will continue to do so. Not only because large portions of the current Bible Dictionary borrow heavily from Mormon Doctrine and that he wrote all of the chapter headings in the LDS standard works, but because of his divine call as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[thesometimesaint]

There were so many things wrong or not Church doctrine that President McKay finally gave up trying to make all the changes necessary and had BRM state in the beginning of Mormon Doctrine that BRM was solely responsible for its contents.

I certainly hope that some of my non conventional understandings of LDS Doctrine wouldn't keep me out of the Celestial Kingdom, or from holding whatever positions in the Church that God wants for me.

I supported BRM as an Apostle of the Lord. Whatever personal ideas/wrong ideas he had are his responsibility alone.

Edited July 6, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[Garden Girl]

cinepro:

Incredibly likely. Adam and Eve were born in a mortal natural world then PLACED in the Garden when all was ready.

Gen. 2:8,15

Moses 3:;8

Abraham 5:8

All refer to God planting a garden and placing the man therein...

GG

[thesometimesaint]

GG:

I don't see where those contradict my point.

[Tacenda]

It may have been mentioned before, but I checked Deseret Bookstore for the "Mormon Doctrine" book and it isn't listed. Is it out of print? My son went on a mission about 2 years ago and has a rather new copy from the mission. How long has it been out of print, if it is?

[thesometimesaint]

Tacenda:

It is out of print. I don't know how long it has been though.

[Craig Paxton]

So we're all in agreement then that Bruce R. McConkie taught many things that he believed to be true at the time he taught them but with the passage of time have been shown to be untrue...I just want to make certain that we at least can agree on this point.

[wenglund]

So we're all in agreement then that Bruce R. McConkie taught many things that he believed to be true at the time he taught them but with the passage of time have been shown to be untrue...I just want to make certain that we at least can agree on this point.

I don't agree with the word "many" and I am not entirely comfortable with the word "untrue".

However, do we all agree that the relatively few things we may disagree with Bro. McKonkie, are inconsequential in relation to our growth in faith in the restored gospel, and certainly not the kinds of things that ought to be used to take the measure of the man over time?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[cinepro]

I also find it interesting that critics like to downplay and even demonize the significance of Elder McConkie's contributions in the doctrinal developement of the LDS church. Even active members of the church have fallen victim to the false ideas that abound regarding Elder McConkie and Mormon Doctrine. The simple fact is that Elder McConkie's contributions have withstood the test of time in spectacular fashion and will continue to do so. Not only because large portions of the current Bible Dictionary borrow heavily from Mormon Doctrine and that he wrote all of the chapter headings in the LDS standard works, but because of his divine call as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It may have been a while since some of us actually looked at a copy of "Mormon Doctrine", so in case anyone needs a refresher, I collected a few of the more interesting passages in a blog article here:

What's Wrong With "Mormon Doctrine"?

Some may argue that there is much good in the book, and that the more unusual teachings should be ignored in favor of the good ones. Others may argue that it's poop brownies. I guess we'll each have to decide.

[cinepro]

Way back in post #59 John Ping Pong perpetuates oft repeated, and from my understanding fallacious, ideas about Elder McConkie and the the publishing of Mormon Doctrine. President McKay asked Elder McConkie not to reprint a second edition but then changed his mind and asked Elder McConkie, with the editorial help of Elder Kimball, to reprint the second edition of Mormon Doctrine in 1966.

I also understand that the changes embodied in the new edition contained no significant doctrinal changes and only softened the tone of potentially controversial doctrines.

Additionally, you can ponder the thought that if Elder McConkie directly disobeyed a directive from the First Presidency in 1966, what is the likelihood that he would be called as an apostle in 1972?

Here's how the situation is described in "David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism":

A similar [controversy] occurred when Joseph Fielding Smith's son-in-law, Bruce R. McConkie, then a member of the First Council of the Seventy quietly wrote and published an encyclopedic book with the presumptuous title of Mormon Doctrine.

[David O.] McKay's first step was to obtain a copy of the book and study it. One of his secretaries noted, "He went through the whole thing. He had paper clips [on the pages where he had a question], and there were hundreds of them there." Then he summoned two senior apostles, Mark E. Petersen and Marion G. Romney. "I asked them if they would together go over Elder Bruce R. McConkie's book, Mormon Doctrine and make a list of the corrections that should be made preparatory to his sending out an addendum to all members of the church who have purchased his book." . . .

Peterson and Romney took ten months to critique the book and make their report to the First Presidency. Romney submitted a lengthy letter on January 7, 1960, detailing what he felt were the most egregious errors in the book and noting: "Its nature and scope and the authoritative tone of the style in which it is written pose the question as to the propriety of the author's attempting such a project without assignment and supervision from him whose right and responsibility it is to speak for the church on 'Mormon Doctrine.' " On the same day, Petersen gave McKay an oral report in which he recommended 1,067 corrections that "affected most of the 776 pages of the book." Their reports placed McKay on the horns of a dilemma: How could he regain control of doctrinal exposition without destroying McConkie's credibility and career? . . .

. . . The following day, McKay and his counselors made their decision. The book "must not be republished, as it is full of errors and misstatements. . . . We do not want him to publish another edition. We decided, also, to have no more books published by General Authorities without their first having the consent of the First Presidency." . . . McKay's message seems to have been unambiguous. Nonetheless, McConkie audaciously approached McKay six years later and pushed for publication of the book in a revised form, albeit with the same title and general tone. At this point McKay, age ninety-two and in failing health, did not take the matter up with his counselors or the Quorum of the Twelve. Rather, he said that "should the book be re-published at this time," McConkie would be responsible for it and "that it will not be a church publication."

Three days after meeting with McKay, McConkie wrote in a memo to Clare Middlemiss, McKay's secretary, "President McKay indicated that the book should be republished at this time." McConkie, who practiced law prior to becoming a General Authority, was well versed in the legal meaning of words; and so one is hard pressed to conclude that he misunderstood McKay's cautionary statement, "should the book be re-published," as a mandate to republish.

Instead, he moved with the same boldness of eight years earlier, and published a second edition of Mormon Doctrine. The book became one of the all-time best sellers in Mormondom, achieving the near-canonical status that McKay had fought unsuccessfully to avoid, and setting a tone of doctrinal fundamentalism, antithetical to McKay's personal philosophy, that remains a legacy of the church to this day.

[cinepro]

cinepro:

Incredibly likely. Adam and Eve were born in a mortal natural world then PLACED in the Garden when all was ready.

Since this is a discussion specifically about Elder McConkie's (and President Smith's) teachings, and TSS has offered an interpretation that he feels is better explaining the reality of the creation that is compatible with Elder McConkie's statement in his last conference talk, I offer these passages from Mormon Doctrine to allow Elder McConkie to clarify how, exactly, he viewed the creation:

Evolution

Adam’s fall brought temporal (natural) and spiritual death into the world. The temporal or natural death means that body and spirit separate, the spirit going to a world of waiting spirits to await the day of the resurrection, the body returning to the dust, the primal element, from which it was taken. The effects of this fall passed upon all created things.

Thus when man fell the earth fell together with all forms of life on its face. Death entered; procreation began; the probationary experiences of mortality had their start. Before this fall there was neither mortality, nor birth, nor death, nor — for that matter — did Adam so much as have blood in his veins (and the same would be true for other forms of life), for blood is an element pertaining only to mortality.

…..

However, for our present purposes, it is sufficient to know that the time element since mortal life began on earth is specifically and pointedly made known. We are now nearing the end of the 6th thousand years of this earth’s “continuance, or its temporal existence,” and the millennial era will commence “in the beginning of the seventh thousand years.” (D. & C. 77.) That is, we are approaching the end of the 6th of the periods of one thousand years each, all of which periods have occurred since the fall, since the earth became temporal, since it gained its telestial status, since it became the natural earth that we know, since death and mortality entered the scene. Thus the period during which birth, and life, and death have been occurring on this earth is less than 6,000 years.

……

How weak and puerile the intellectuality which, knowing that the Lord’s plan takes all forms of life from a pre-existent spirit state, through mortality, and on to an ultimate resurrected state of immortality, yet finds comfort in the theoretical postulates that mortal life began in the scum of the sea, as it were, and has through eons of time evolved to its present varieties and state! Do those with spiritual insight really think that the infinite Creator of worlds without number would operate in this way?

…..

Merely to list the basic doctrines of the gospel is to point out the revealed truths which are inharmonious with the theories of organic evolution and which were to taken into account by those who postulated those theories. In addition to the considerations so far mentioned attention might be given to revelation, visions, and angelic ministrations; to miracles, signs, and gifts of the Spirit; to the enjoyment of the gift of the Holy Ghost by the faithful; to the truths comprising the plan of salvation; to the decreed judgment according to works, and the ultimate assignment of all resurrected men to kingdoms or degrees of glory hereafter.

There is no harmony between the truths of revealed religion and the theories of organic evolution.

First Man

There were no pre-Adamites; the great archangel Michael, who descended from the courts of glory to be the father of the human race, was appointed to be the father of all living. Indeed, Adam and Eve were not able to have children and provide bodies for the spirit children of the Father until after the fall.

[thesometimesaint]

cinepro:

I supported both men as Apostles not everything they said.

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Evolution

The position of the Church on the origin of man was published by the First Presidency in 1909 and stated again by a different First Presidency in 1925: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, basing its belief on divine revelation, ancient and modern, declares man to be the direct and lineal offspring of Deity…. Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes (see Appendix, "Doctrinal Expositions of the First Presidency").

The scriptures tell why man was created, but they do not tell how, though the Lord has promised that he will tell that when he comes again (D&C 101:32-33). In 1931, when there was intense discussion on the issue of organic evolution, the First Presidency of the Church, then consisting of Presidents Heber J. Grant, Anthony W. Ivins, and Charles W. Nibley, addressed all of the General Authorities of the Church on the matter, and concluded, Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church we are all agreed. Our mission is to bear the message of the restored gospel to the world. Leave geology, biology, archaeology, and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research, while we magnify our calling in the realm of the Church….

Upon one thing we should all be able to agree, namely, that Presidents Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund were right when they said: "Adam is the primal parent of our race" [First Presidency Minutes, Apr. 7, 1931].